Has anyone tried crunching the numbers for developing a sustainable network of synchronized forks? How many is too many, what are the requirements to sustain your sanity and funds. I know that many of the factors involve resources available, lucidity, psychosurgical skill, psychology skill, and network breadth, but I'm sure that there are at least some solutions.
How hard is it to keep your sanity when you are a small organization? How much do you need to specialize to make it work? One could throw in lots of traits and high skills to get 90+ rolls if necessary.
On a related note: Do you need to merge and re-fork to synchronize two forks (for purposes of restarting the timer for fork merging difficulty), or is it sufficient to send a fork to each other to remerge separately?
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Multiplicity
Tue, 2013-08-27 14:49
#1
nerdnumber1
Multiplicity
Tue, 2013-08-27 18:15
#2
DivineWrath
I'll try to answer.
I'll try to answer.
A. Regarding how large could such a network be. It takes 1 full action turn to merge forks with synthmorphs and infomorphs. So if you are trying to stay below the 1 hour limit, then the very limit would be (20 [1 action turn = 3 seconds] * 60 minutes = 1200 forks). It however takes biomorphs with mnemonic augmentation 10 minutes to merge, so 6 forks for biomorphs. In either case, I wouldn't wait till the absolute limit before merging, otherwise, you run the risk of delays prevent seamless merges. If you were willing to go for the 4 hour limit, then you could multiply these number by 4.
These numbers assume that only one fork will be forking and merging. If multiple forks are forking and merging, then I'm not quite sure. Lets put that one on hold for the time being.
B. Keeping sane. I would avoid going beyond the 4 hour mark. Merging forks before this limit does no stress, but after this limit, you start automatically taking stress. You might also suffer stress from Alienation tests, which has a default test modifier of -20. You would need a large INT aptitude to do well on these tests, but useful traits like "Adaptability" or using morphs you are familiar with will net you good bonuses on these tests. Hell, if you use infomorphs frequently, you would want the "Right at Home" trait for infomorphs so you no longer need to make Alienation tests for infomorphs.
C. Regarding funds. I'm not quite sure. The rules are not very clear on economics. Actually, I imagine that a mass forker would not be looked upon favorably by the law depending on where you reside. You might be better off owning your own private habitat so you are not bothered by such technicalities. I'll make a point to give this some further thought later.
D. Regarding skills. Psychosugery is needed to merge, so you need that skill high. Getting assistance from other forks could net you a +30 mod (from 3 assistants). Having a complementary skill at 61+ will net you another +30 mod. Together, you get a modifier of +60 (the max possible under these rules), so you could survive on something like a skill of 40. That will provide you with no buffer against negative modifiers, so it might be worth your time to invest in more skill ranks.
Such a setup can be done by limited AIs, so you don't really need those skills. However, only a normal ego could have active skills higher than 40.
Also, you can get skill modifiers by taking extra time. By taking 1 full action turn + 6 minutes, you can get a +60 modifier (+10 per minute) with synthmorphs, or 40 minutes for biomorphs with mnemonic augmentation (10 minutes +50% time per +10 mod).
Other handy skills include Medicine: Psychiatry, Academics: Psychology, and/or Professional: Psychotherapy. I think you only need one; the core rules are not very clear as to why you might want all 3. Well 2 of them are knowledge skills so they could be used to tell you want you should do or how to understand problems. Also, you could use one of the knowledge skills a complementary skill on a stress treatment tests... Anyways, these skills are useful for healing stress (and other mental problems) quickly as noted on (Core Rulebook, p. 215).
E. Regarding how merging is handled. I'm not quite sure on this. Supposedly, Pax Familia (I forget details so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) are all forks of the same person. They send forks each other's way so they can all merge with each other, so none of the forks need to leave where they resides. However, there are rumors that they are starting to show subtle differences.
I happen to think you would get best results if one fork is designated as the primary fork, and that all other forks will eventually return home to merge before new forks are created to replace them. Only that ego would fork so all others would be forks of that ego. It would avoid problems that Pax Familia is rumored to be having.
----
You might also want to read this thread (I need to get back to it):
http://eclipsephase.com/questions-regarding-fork-merging
I hope all this helps.
Tue, 2013-08-27 19:29
#3
nerdnumber1
I was leaning towards having
I was leaning towards having only a handful of forks distributed through the solar system in key places, so that one individual can be a trustworthy intelligence network for himself. The costs I was worried about was having to ego-cast regularly to stay in sync. Are ego-casts less expensive if you have a flexible schedule, since you can slip in during low-traffic times and don't bump other people's schedules? Also, I'm not sure if one who plans to stay forked for long periods is best served forking and re-merging constantly, since, while your rolls have better bonuses, you have to make so many more rolls and can't benefit from extended time on the merging check as easily.
I need to calculate a fork number and merging schedule which is sustainable both for my mind and my rep/credits. A "short distance" egocast is a level 3 favor that refreshes each week; A "medium range" egocast is a level 4 favor that refreshes monthly; Lastly a "long range" ego cast is a level 5 favor that refreshes every 3 months. I'm assuming that short range is limited to a planet and its satellites/moons, medium range is short interplanetary jumps (such as between inner-system planets), and long range is between any two points in the solar system.
It looks like significant rep of different types across a number of identities will be necessary to support this and even then merging more than weekly would not be feasible unless some price cut on ego transportation were devised. Plus, it seems difficult to have a particularly spread out network. Unless, of course, I acquired ego-casting equipment for my own use, possibly making rep/money from an ego/dark-casting operation to support myself.
Tue, 2013-08-27 19:46
#4
nerdnumber1
The easiest solution I've
The easiest solution I've thought of is to have a hub with an ego-casting set-up so that every other fork only needs to worry about sending in their backup, and then the hub can merge a "master back-up" and send it out to everyone else. I would prefer to have redundant hubs (as I am a paranoid exhuman monster), but this is getting pricey as it is.
I need to figure out how to simulate making money/rep with 3+ characters only one of which works directly for firewall...
Wed, 2013-08-28 00:28
#5
DivineWrath
I see, you wanted to create
I see, you wanted to create trusted agents (created by forking) carefully placed throughout the solar system, not make an infomorph forking hive. That simplifies things.
First, the costs for living. The Transhuman book does have a brief section on living expenses and how to make money. Its on p. 104 . At the very high end of rep, a week of work will net you 5000 credits. So it would be possible to pay for ego casting after 5 weeks of work, some of which goes to living expenses (assuming that you can't negociate the price of ego casting down from 20k).
Second, the Transhuman book has something like 6 pages for new fork merging techniques and forking topics. It includes experimental merging techniques that increase the duration you can fork for and merge successfully. If successful, you can merge with no memory loss if the forks merge under a month. You can go up to 6 months if you are not worried about minor memory loss. Beyond that, it would be treated as though you were merging 2 different egos.
Merging 2 different egos is very dangerous (high risk of producing a vapor fork) and very difficult (-60 mod to tests from the get go, and 10 days of work). Even if things go very well, it is likely that the merged ego will have suffered plenty of stress (21 points of stress is the average). Good psychotherapy skills will be a must if you pursue this route.
Wed, 2013-08-28 01:49
#6
nerdnumber1
I did look into the
I did look into the transhuman merging rules. I'm going to have to double check how fast I can recover from the stress (keeping my memories is nice, but I still would like to not have my forks go insane). Adding in ego plasticity at level 2~3 should help me push the limits a bit. Firewall missions might cause excess stress and throw off my synchronization cycle (as will my other experiments in psychosurgery), so I will have to factor in a margin of safety if I want to keep myself safe.
The merging of different egos has promise for exhuman experimentation, but I figure that is a special occasion thing to try when I have plenty of time and moxie to get it done right.
So to ego cast, all I need is a neutrino transceiver (cost: expensive, EP 314) and access to a significant power source (plus an ego bridge if I'm uploading/downloading from meat), right? I wonder if I should try to make a small, private, tin-can hab (with a big power-plant) or just carve out a space in an existing hab for my main hub....
Sat, 2013-08-31 05:06
#7
Baalbamoth
why merge?
why not just get some psychosurgery loyalty conditioning, then make 1000 brainwashed you's, and get infomorph forks to constantly monitor your you's?
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Sat, 2013-08-31 11:51
#8
davethebrave
What Baalbamoth said. If
What Baalbamoth said. If there's a reason you want to re-merge, chances are you can have a layer or two of infomorphs between you and the sleeved morphs that covers it. If this fork-progenitor just really really wants the experience of being there, they could just get the sleeved morphs to XP-log everything privately for later time-dilated simulspace cramming at the progenitor's perusal.
—
Yours,
Dave the Brave
Sat, 2013-08-31 13:33
#9
nerdnumber1
Baalbamoth wrote:why not just
OOC, I'm afraid of what a GM would pull if I let 1,000 exhuman forks diverge too much. I see inevitable x-threats popping up as they jump on opportunities that I might see as questionable, possibly losing important information, pissing off dangerous individuals and groups.
Also, I don't necessarily find earlier instantiations of myself "special", so, when practical, I don't make alphas to do things I wouldn't do myself. For example, if I had a suicide mission that needed an alpha, I wouldn't make a fork to die, I'd make one to live while I went on the suicide mission. I want all of my incarnations to be cooperative by default and willing to cease being or remerge when necessary (especially since the high will I need to hold up to the stress of all this psychosurgery makes it likely that the psychosurgery won't be permanent). I don't see any alpha as superior to any other by default. They are all me. I will have some aberrant forks, from certain experiments that HAVE to stay independent, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Actually, that might make a good universal modified behavior if I can correctly articulate and define it: conditioning toward the continual existence and betterment of the self. I still see how a subverted fork (or REALLY GOOD impostor) could use this against me or how a fork might disagree with another fork on how best to improve the self, but it might be a start. Betas and deltas would still feel obligated to preserve at least one alpha, even after significant divergence, so I have that.
Sat, 2013-08-31 13:59
#10
davethebrave
Idea while reading this:
Idea while reading this: travelling outer system gamma fork freakshow and space ship circus run by cynical delta fork carnival master with a neurological bias towards exploiting themself. Unclear what the profession/identity of the alpha was/is (maybe someone resleeved in an anarchist hab with fork rights after the Fall who was consensus booted off for exploitation of beta forks, maybe a bored, vain and self-obsessed hyperelite gerontocrat, maybe some criminal org's boss' assassination decoy beta fork survived an attempt and took a hike with the help of some deltas including the carnival master, maybe they're a fork of a legit carnival master), but I love the idea of a weird ghost ship that's a prison ship to a delta's sideshow of their freakish gamma experiments with a public-facing "Family entertainment!" vibe.
Man, I love this thread.
—
Yours,
Dave the Brave
Sun, 2013-09-01 03:14
#11
thezombiekat
My way of looking at forks
My way of looking at forks might be useful to you.
I treat alpha forks as equal and lost alpha forks as lack
When you fork do not consider one primary and the other secondary, both forks consider themselves part of the same entity, lacking some experiences the whole should have, and desires to reintegrate so the full set of memories can be shared. Nether fork will consider itself, or the other, to be ending.
There are some downsides to this.
Because both forks are equal they can both make commitments on your behalf. These commitments could be in conflict even when nobody actively deceived you (eg when you have exactly one ground car agreeing to give 2 different people transportation in opposite directions in exchange for their information. Now you you have all the information and need to make good on your word or take a hit to the rep.)
There is also the implications of a fork you cannot merge with. Should a fork be destroyed or contaminated you will not be able to reintergrate with it to recover your memories, the way the books are written indicates that most people do not consider there forks part of themselves and are not concerned by the loss of experience. When restored from backup they do consider the person that acted in there persona after the backup to be themselves and are concerned with the missing experience, experiencing mental stress for the loss. If you consider another fork of yourself to be the yourself in the same way you would have similar concerns about lost forks, at least as an RP element and this could lead you to risky procedures such as reintegrating forks after extended separation, this could inflict serious stress and traumas.
While this mindset dose reduce the chance of a fork choosing not to reintegrate it could still happen even deep seated opinions can change over time, if this happiness normaly the designated fork is considered a new person and the person who made the fork keeps all the stuff. You have a bigger problem, which of you is entitled to your stuff. These forks where designated as equal at creation, the social and legal implications are more significant.
Wed, 2013-09-04 17:28
#12
nerdnumber1
thezombiekat wrote:My way of
I was figuring that my hypothetical character living multiple parallel lives through forking would try to maintain different identities to reduce the chance that the actions of one fork interferes with another fork's affairs unexpectedly. As long as I keep myself in agreement and synced, I should be fine. The matter of keeping myself synced while keeping my mental health is a non-trivial problem though, whose complexity is based on resource limitations, number of parellel forks, and distribution distance.
Sat, 2016-07-23 09:17
#13
Marijn
Re: Multiplicity
And then there is the trouble that two Forks who merge with a [abbr=Time Spent Apart]TSA[/abbr] of 3 hours, would result in an Ego with a [abbr=Total Divergence]TD[/abbr] of 6 hours (all compared to the [abbr=Original Ego]OE[/abbr] on which the forks were based).
If one would then go on and merge this resultant Ego of 6 hours with a third Fork of 3 hours, one should use the average of the time values to determine the [abbr=Stress Value]SV[/abbr] and rate of memory loss. So in this case, it would count as a TD of 9 hours and a TSA of 4½ hours.
One can verify this method by using it on the precalculated values of the Merging Table; two Forks that have been apart for 8 hours, would have a TD of 16 hours from the OE. Average it and you have the TSA for the Merging Table, which is 8 hours.
This is correct, as the TSA with which we began our calculation was 8 hours.
This solves the question of how to approach Forks with different time values, but brings up the question of how to calculate a Multi-Fork Merger.