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Reproduction in the age of transhumanity?

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Sat, 2013-08-17 14:10
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Decivre wrote:Smokeskin wrote
Decivre wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
It is ironic that you're justifying obviously oppressive practices on a basis of "cultural differences" here and "defending" feminism in another thread. Do you seriously think it is fine that the family head decides who his children are supposed to marry and spend their entire lives with? Do you seriously think that the children always agree? Have you never heard of the sort of shit they do to the women who don't take well to say an abusive husband - which ranges from incarceration and beatings to getting burned alive. That is indeed a despicable point of view you have there. Oh wait, you intend no malice, you are just a cultural relativist with the best intentions. How you politically correct types manage to juggle your sensibilities is beyond me.
I find it interesting that from your point of view, modern arranged marriage structures like Japan's [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miai]Miais[/url], China's marriage markets, or India's marriage brokering industries are viewed as oppressive due to familial investment in one's choice of mate or spouse. Perhaps you try to conflate it with the sort of arranged marriages that still exist in the Middle East (which I explicitly avoided mentioning), or because you yourself have a specific mandatory view on what a positive marriage is defined by, and all other marriage structures are aberrant in your mind? Or maybe your definition of free will is so vast, that any and every decision that a parent makes for their child is tantamount to a form of slavery, and you feel that proper parenting means complete abandonment of one's kin to all the chaos of the modern world, good or bad. Perhaps if you actually looked into modern arranged marriage customs of either India, Japan, and nowadays China, you'd know that the child has final say in who they marry. Maybe if you actually did a little research instead of judging the concept based on the word "arranged", you might know a bit more about how cultures other than yours handle social bondings such as marriage. But nay, let us judge all other races and nations as savages bereft of morality and humanity, because they do not conform to your personal determinations on how relationships should be formed. Because this seems to be how you judge the world, Smokeskin. You look for key phrases which denote things you dislike, take any person who ascribes to or practices them, and assume that they are one-dimensional cartoon villains. Because to assume that people are deeper than that is far too hard, and it's so much easier to just simplify and hate.
You really know how to pick your battles. This is a horrific and oppressive practice that should be purged, and you use that as a prime example of my horrible character? I'll just let wikipedia do the talking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#India Honor killings have been reported in northern regions of India, mainly in the Indian states of Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, as a result of people marrying without their family's acceptance, and sometimes for marrying outside their caste or religion. [...] Recent cases include a 16-year-old girl, Imrana, from Bhojpur who was set on fire inside her house in a case of what the police called 'moral vigilantism'. The victim had screamed for help for about 20 minutes before neighbours arrived, only to find her smouldering body. [...] In June 2010, scrutinizing the increasing number of honor killings, the Supreme Court of India issued notices to the Central Government and six states including Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan to take preventive measures against honor killings. Alarmed by the rise of honor killings, the Government planned to bring a bill in the Monsoon Session of Parliament July 2010[dated info] to provide for deterrent punishment for 'honor' killings.
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Sat, 2013-08-17 14:51
Decivre Decivre's picture
Smokeskin wrote:You really
Smokeskin wrote:
You really know how to pick your battles. This is a horrific and oppressive practice that should be purged, and you use that as a prime example of my horrible character? I'll just let wikipedia do the talking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#India Honor killings have been reported in northern regions of India, mainly in the Indian states of Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, as a result of people marrying without their family's acceptance, and sometimes for marrying outside their caste or religion. [...] Recent cases include a 16-year-old girl, Imrana, from Bhojpur who was set on fire inside her house in a case of what the police called 'moral vigilantism'. The victim had screamed for help for about 20 minutes before neighbours arrived, only to find her smouldering body. [...] In June 2010, scrutinizing the increasing number of honor killings, the Supreme Court of India issued notices to the Central Government and six states including Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan to take preventive measures against honor killings. Alarmed by the rise of honor killings, the Government planned to bring a bill in the Monsoon Session of Parliament July 2010[dated info] to provide for deterrent punishment for 'honor' killings.
Ah, I see. So if I can cite [url=http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/05/14/couple-in-murde... of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt]people[/url] in [url=http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/16/wife-who-let-lover-torture-husband-... marriages [url=http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/11/west-virginia-man-accused-torturing... atrocities, does this mean I've proven that western marriages are an inhuman institution that needs to be dismantled as well? Why do you vehemently ignore the presence of honor killings even in societies that allow for, or even fully practice, love-based marriages? Someone murdering their arranged wife is a monster, but a person who murders the love of his life is a-okay in your book? Keep on cherry-picking the things that suit your worldview. Clearly nothing I say will make you do otherwise. I can only be thankful that you don't ascribe to any violent religious doctrine, because you seem to have a talent for spinning a narrative to suit your needs.
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Sat, 2013-08-17 18:02
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I'm sorry but a practice of
I'm sorry but a practice of forcing your children to marry who you order them to is very oppressive, and it only gets worse by the fact that if they don't do as you say you have the choice of social stigmatization of your family or killing the girl to clear the shame from your family. There are some that are happy sure, and some that get to say no, but also some who die, and many, many more who live in misery, maybe after having been beaten and threatened into submission. Can women leave an unhappy marriage in such places? Can she leave an abusive husband? Yes, such arranged marriages are horrible practices. And do you really think that afterwards there are actually fewer marital murders and suicides than in the west? Do you really think that our jealousy murder in any way compares to their honor killings? Do you think we have anywhere near the number of women forced to stay in miserable or even abusive relationships? I'd argue the divorce statistics speak differently. How on earth can you stand up for such barbarism?
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Sat, 2013-08-17 20:05
Decivre Decivre's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I'm sorry but
Smokeskin wrote:
I'm sorry but a practice of forcing your children to marry who you order them to is very oppressive, and it only gets worse by the fact that if they don't do as you say you have the choice of social stigmatization of your family or killing the girl to clear the shame from your family. There are some that are happy sure, and some that get to say no, but also some who die, and many, many more who live in misery, maybe after having been beaten and threatened into submission. Can women leave an unhappy marriage in such places? Can she leave an abusive husband?
Actually, yes. And Miais tend to result in fewer divorces. Plus I don't know where you get this presumption of ludicrous amounts of honor killings. While there are plenty of examples in the worst parts of the worlds, the marriage market turns out to be pretty civil. I don't even think there are instances of honor killings over marriage in Japan. Suicide tends to be their biggest risk, and far more often caused by failing to get a job or qualify for University than anything to do with marriage.
Smokeskin wrote:
Yes, such arranged marriages are horrible practices. And do you really think that afterwards there are actually fewer marital murders and suicides than in the west?
I'd say the statistics probably pan out to be about on par with western countries based on crime rate and wealth disparity. The Philippines has no social structure for arranged marriages, and spousal abuse is one of the worst legal issues there. Arranged or not, abusers are abusers. Sounds like you're blaming the gun for the crime, when the problem is the people.
Smokeskin wrote:
Do you really think that our jealousy murder in any way compares to their honor killings? Do you think we have anywhere near the number of women forced to stay in miserable or even abusive relationships? I'd argue the divorce statistics speak differently. How on earth can you stand up for such barbarism?
Again, the Philippines have no system of arranged marriages, and has some of the most atrocious issues with spousal abuse and murder the world over. Even if you completely disregard spousal prostitution (a country-wide epidemic spawned by the wealth disparity), the Philippines is notable for being one of the few places on Earth where it's fairly easy to sell your own children. But hey, you get to marry whomever you want! So it's a paradise!!!
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sun, 2013-08-18 01:38
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Decivre wrote:Smokeskin wrote
Decivre wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I'm sorry but a practice of forcing your children to marry who you order them to is very oppressive, and it only gets worse by the fact that if they don't do as you say you have the choice of social stigmatization of your family or killing the girl to clear the shame from your family. There are some that are happy sure, and some that get to say no, but also some who die, and many, many more who live in misery, maybe after having been beaten and threatened into submission. Can women leave an unhappy marriage in such places? Can she leave an abusive husband?
Actually, yes. And Miais tend to result in fewer divorces. Plus I don't know where you get this presumption of ludicrous amounts of honor killings. While there are plenty of examples in the worst parts of the worlds, the marriage market turns out to be pretty civil. I don't even think there are instances of honor killings over marriage in Japan. Suicide tends to be their biggest risk, and far more often caused by failing to get a job or qualify for University than anything to do with marriage.
Smokeskin wrote:
Yes, such arranged marriages are horrible practices. And do you really think that afterwards there are actually fewer marital murders and suicides than in the west?
I'd say the statistics probably pan out to be about on par with western countries based on crime rate and wealth disparity. The Philippines has no social structure for arranged marriages, and spousal abuse is one of the worst legal issues there. Arranged or not, abusers are abusers. Sounds like you're blaming the gun for the crime, when the problem is the people.
Smokeskin wrote:
Do you really think that our jealousy murder in any way compares to their honor killings? Do you think we have anywhere near the number of women forced to stay in miserable or even abusive relationships? I'd argue the divorce statistics speak differently. How on earth can you stand up for such barbarism?
Again, the Philippines have no system of arranged marriages, and has some of the most atrocious issues with spousal abuse and murder the world over. Even if you completely disregard spousal prostitution (a country-wide epidemic spawned by the wealth disparity), the Philippines is notable for being one of the few places on Earth where it's fairly easy to sell your own children. But hey, you get to marry whomever you want! So it's a paradise!!!
This is the most harebrained defense of arranged marriages I have ever seen.
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Sun, 2013-08-18 01:53
Anarchitect Anarchitect's picture
Here we go Again.
Please For the love of all that is. Do NOT turn this into another "Pig Teats and Catsuits" Thread.
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Sun, 2013-08-18 02:27
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I totally agree. I didn't
I totally agree. I didn't have time to go to the gym yesterday because of it.
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Sun, 2013-08-18 06:37
Decivre Decivre's picture
Anarchitect wrote:Please
Anarchitect wrote:
Please For the love of all that is. Do NOT turn this into another "Pig Teats and Catsuits" Thread.
Fair enough. It's clear where Smokeskin lies in this argument, and anything he disagrees with is going to be painted as evil in all of his responses, so I'll bow out for the sake of maintaining thread integrity. I'd rather do that then get another thread locked.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sun, 2013-08-18 08:25
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Decivre wrote:Anarchitect
Decivre wrote:
Anarchitect wrote:
Please For the love of all that is. Do NOT turn this into another "Pig Teats and Catsuits" Thread.
Fair enough. It's clear where Smokeskin lies in this argument, and anything he disagrees with is going to be painted as evil in all of his responses, so I'll bow out for the sake of maintaining thread integrity. I'd rather do that then get another thread locked.
Lol, real classy :)
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Mon, 2013-08-19 23:31
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Hey.
Please refrain from griping about your interactions in past threads or on other forums. This thread is otherwise pretty interesting. I'd rather not lock it.
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Tue, 2013-08-20 04:49
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
I wish my family would marry
I wish my family would marry me off to someone. :)
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Tue, 2013-08-20 06:00
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Lorsa wrote:I wish my family
Lorsa wrote:
I wish my family would marry me off to someone. :)
Starting from this, could we construct an interesting adventure seed involving a desired arranged marriage and radical transhuman weirdness? "I married an exhuman - despite Firewall trying to stop me!"
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Extropian
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Tue, 2013-08-20 07:53
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Arenamontanus wrote:Awwww...
Arenamontanus wrote:
Awwww... that was great reading! I loved the sentence "Humans often prefer to end up in a tree, but for some reason old robots like becoming playground equipment."
Thanks for saying so. I think it's going to end up as a flashback in a novel eventually.
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Tue, 2013-08-20 07:56
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Arenamontanus wrote:Lorsa
Arenamontanus wrote:
Lorsa wrote:
I wish my family would marry me off to someone. :)
Starting from this, could we construct an interesting adventure seed involving a desired arranged marriage and radical transhuman weirdness? "I married an exhuman - despite Firewall trying to stop me!"
I could see the Ultimates developing some pretty interesting marriage customs. "Your dowry of two ammonia-ice asteroids has been deemed acceptable. This dossier details your betrothed. He's been given a one week head start on you, as is customary. Recruit whomever you have the means to assist you; the groom's party will be heavily armed as well. Good hunting."
—
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Tue, 2013-08-20 08:25
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
jackgraham wrote
jackgraham wrote:
Arenamontanus wrote:
Lorsa wrote:
I wish my family would marry me off to someone. :)
Starting from this, could we construct an interesting adventure seed involving a desired arranged marriage and radical transhuman weirdness? "I married an exhuman - despite Firewall trying to stop me!"
I could see the Ultimates developing some pretty interesting marriage customs. "Your dowry of two ammonia-ice asteroids has been deemed acceptable. This dossier details your betrothed. He's been given a one week head start on you, as is customary. Recruit whomever you have the means to assist you; the groom's party will be heavily armed as well. Good hunting."
Or you can always take some inspiration from the Nietzscheans in Andromeda. Although considering you can choose gender in EP, perhaps some elders of the community gets to choose who is strong and capable enough to have their genes carried on to a new generation.
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Tue, 2013-08-20 10:09
Decivre Decivre's picture
jackgraham wrote:I could see
jackgraham wrote:
I could see the Ultimates developing some pretty interesting marriage customs. "Your dowry of two ammonia-ice asteroids has been deemed acceptable. This dossier details your betrothed. He's been given a one week head start on you, as is customary. Recruit whomever you have the means to assist you; the groom's party will be heavily armed as well. Good hunting."
I actually was of the view that the Ultimates negotiate the interchange of genes for breeding programs. Rather than ever really marrying, Ultimates will try and acquire the genetic data from other Ultimates who show great talent and physical potential. they then intermix these genes with their own to clone children (I don't see Ultimates being sentimental enough for natural birth... at ALL). Parenthood will only be partially handled by the parent; an Ultimate will generally buy an indenture to raise their kids as a nursemaid. Such contracts will generally be pretty generous too, among the best contracts you can get from the Ultimates; they do, after all, need incentives to be willing to work for a decade or more raising a future Ultimate soldier.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Tue, 2013-08-20 11:27
Anarchitect Anarchitect's picture
Passing On Traits.
See, that's the thing that really gets me about transhuman reproduction. HOW are we passing down traits? Genetically, many people's biomorphs aren't theirs. Their genetic material was left on earth, or discarded when they got a better body, or whatever. But even if you get busy with another biomorph, the traits you're passing on are the ones the gene-splicer gave you. In fact, there's no reason to mate with another person to get their genetics, even if they are superior. You can just look their biomorph's model up on the mesh, order some sperm or egg, and make yourself a baby with those genes in an exowomb. So we aren't mating to gain access to better genetic stock. That's just right out. The closest analog to what biology accomplishes would be merging forks. You mix the best ego traits of your partner with the best ego traits of yourself. Sleeve the resulting ego in the best morph you can get, and there you go. Of course, the problem with this is you don't get a baby, you get an adult. I don't think psychosurgery can regress an ego to true childhood. As far as I can see it, there isn't a way to get a child who's actually a mix of you and your partner. You aren't going to pick a partner for any particular trait you want to pass on to the child. We've moved beyond husbandry to improve our genepool. And every kid is basically "Adopted" So all that remains is to pick a partner for their ability to be a good parent. You want someone who has learned skills and behaviors you value, who also has the capability to teach well, and is a good caretaker. In other words, the only real way to reproduce in Eclipse phase is Memetically.
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Tue, 2013-08-20 14:44
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
People could be carrying
People could be carrying around a copy of their DNA, and then you take that and your partner's DNA to the local genehacker, who then mixes and matches genes for the traits you want from eachother, add some third-party stuff where you don't think you have the genetic ooomph your little gem deserves, and voila, it is all golden. I am far from sure that something like that will be a popular choice though. A memetic approach to mating is much more likely. Maybe psychosurgeons have a way of "imprinting" parts of the parents' personality onto an infant mind - maybe it is even done at stages throughout childhood. I also see a market for child morphs that are optimized not for developing into a proper adult morph, but to stimulate the development of the ego sleeved in it at that age. "Realise your child's full potential for musicality with BabyMozart morph line! 83% of egos spending more than 18 months in our morphs before age 5 develop perfect pitch! Comes with ultra-fine dexterity, razorsharp vocalcords and enhanced dopamin response to musical practice."
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Tue, 2013-08-20 19:03
Decivre Decivre's picture
Anarchitect wrote:See, that's
Anarchitect wrote:
See, that's the thing that really gets me about transhuman reproduction. HOW are we passing down traits? Genetically, many people's biomorphs aren't theirs. Their genetic material was left on earth, or discarded when they got a better body, or whatever. But even if you get busy with another biomorph, the traits you're passing on are the ones the gene-splicer gave you. In fact, there's no reason to mate with another person to get their genetics, even if they are superior. You can just look their biomorph's model up on the mesh, order some sperm or egg, and make yourself a baby with those genes in an exowomb. So we aren't mating to gain access to better genetic stock. That's just right out.
Actually, I'm under the impression that our old genetics weren't necessarily lost all that easily. Your DNA information is a finite data file, significantly smaller than an ego. Tests that would likely be trivial in price could probably net you that information in digital form. This is especially likely to have happened as meshes became very common, as a means for people to basically carry their own medical records with them. So my guess is that somewhere on their mesh inserts' drive is a cache of their original DNA. It's just that most people can't afford to have their original bodies cloned, and those that can likely have better bodies anyways.
Anarchitect wrote:
The closest analog to what biology accomplishes would be merging forks. You mix the best ego traits of your partner with the best ego traits of yourself. Sleeve the resulting ego in the best morph you can get, and there you go. Of course, the problem with this is you don't get a baby, you get an adult. I don't think psychosurgery can regress an ego to true childhood. As far as I can see it, there isn't a way to get a child who's actually a mix of you and your partner. You aren't going to pick a partner for any particular trait you want to pass on to the child. We've moved beyond husbandry to improve our genepool. And every kid is basically "Adopted" So all that remains is to pick a partner for their ability to be a good parent. You want someone who has learned skills and behaviors you value, who also has the capability to teach well, and is a good caretaker. In other words, the only real way to reproduce in Eclipse phase is Memetically.
I can see genetics mattering to a lot of people. Even if genefixing is a popular thing in that day and time, The core book implied that many people get their morphs custom-modified. I can see wealthy people having signature traits that they want members of their bloodline to exhibit, regardless of the morph brand they have. So while keeping your overall genetics (and all the inherent flaws) might be a terrible idea, perhaps some families maintain "cosmetic genetics" which ties them to family lines. People find the strangest things to keep sentimental about. Genes being one of them.
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Wed, 2013-08-21 12:07
Anarchitect Anarchitect's picture
That Child-morph optimized
That Child-morph optimized for learning skills is an awesome concept. Hell, Trainer-morphs seems like a cool idea across the board. Yeah, I can see people being sentimental about their genetic line. People today go through expensive fertility procedures to have their own kid, rather than just adopt. I just don't think it will play a huge role in Mate Selection anymore. Today, if you want your kid to have certain traits, you mate with someone who has those traits and then pray to Mendel. In eclipse phase, you just download those traits from the App store when designing your kid's DNA. Also, a person's phenotype in eclipse phase has no relation to their phenotype. So you have even less ability to judge a person's genetic stock by their displayed traits. And most critically, I think most people in Eclipse phase are aware enough of this that it WILL inform the way they pick co-parents. Of course, a lot of people (perhaps most) Don't pick Co-Parents based on anything other than who they're in love with. And they love each other so much that they want to create new people that have all the traits they love about each other combined. But what about that other person actually defines those traits, and how do you make sure your kids get those traits? As always, it seems the whole thing boils down to "Where is your real self?" And there isn't one answer to that question, so each society is going to wind up having very different ways of solving the problem. Bioconservatives in Flats or splicers mostly keep the old ways going. Middle class inner system folk probably go to the clinic and sit down with their partner and put together their designer baby from the best genestock, cook it up in an exowomb, and then pretty much raise it in the traditional fashion. Everywhere else things get weirder. Oh wow, i just realized. Having a kid in Eclipse phase is the ultimate form of conspicuous consumption. When there are still millions waiting for access to morphs, millions sleeved in cases and pods, you can afford to have a custom grown person as a vanity project. Shit, people probably have kids primarily to SHOW OFF. Which means practically every parent will be one of those parents who brags about their kid's accomplishments, and drives their kids crazy with expectations to excel. I'm imagining the worst combination of Soccer trophy Moms and Celebrities adopting 3rd world kids as decorations.
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Wed, 2013-08-21 18:37
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Anarchitect wrote:
Anarchitect wrote:
Oh wow, i just realized. Having a kid in Eclipse phase is the ultimate form of conspicuous consumption. When there are still millions waiting for access to morphs, millions sleeved in cases and pods, you can afford to have a custom grown person as a vanity project. Shit, people probably have kids primarily to SHOW OFF. Which means practically every parent will be one of those parents who brags about their kid's accomplishments, and drives their kids crazy with expectations to excel. I'm imagining the worst combination of Soccer trophy Moms and Celebrities adopting 3rd world kids as decorations.
Not much different from today. Lots of people die from poverty all over the world, from really trivial shit that's cheap and easy to prevent. Meanwhile we spend money on not just essential things like having kids but also in-app purchases and windmills.
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Wed, 2013-08-21 19:14
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Anarchitect wrote:Oh wow, i
Anarchitect wrote:
Oh wow, i just realized. Having a kid in Eclipse phase is the ultimate form of conspicuous consumption. When there are still millions waiting for access to morphs, millions sleeved in cases and pods, you can afford to have a custom grown person as a vanity project. Shit, people probably have kids primarily to SHOW OFF. Which means practically every parent will be one of those parents who brags about their kid's accomplishments, and drives their kids crazy with expectations to excel. I'm imagining the worst combination of Soccer trophy Moms and Celebrities adopting 3rd world kids as decorations.
Heh. I guess on Titan people are really conflicted about it - making new citizens, or help existing citizens achieve the "one morph per ego" goal? Co-parenting is interesting from a showing off perspective. Several parents are better at sharing the costs than just one or two, so it is less impressive and more about really wanting to have a part in a child. So the larger parenting collectives might be found among the less well to do, and have somewhat different interests. "All my dads are in synths, except Jimmy who is info anyway. But I have one soft mom and one pod mom."
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Extropian
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Thu, 2013-08-22 11:52
davethebrave davethebrave's picture
I can just hear the
I can just hear the simulschool infomorph chatter now. "My dads say robotics and synthmorph construction are where the jobs are going to be, since there's so many egos in cold storage still...but they're idiots! My moms are always saying people want biomorphs! I'm going to work on low-cost biomorphs for people who want short indenture buyoffs." "No way, I think your dads and moms are both wrong. All three of my parents are postgender and could care less about optimizing their dusty-ass clanks they barely use. They told me the REAL money is gonna be in data degradation research. Data loss prevention for egos is gonna be more and more important as time goes on. Yeah there's a lot in cold storage but cold storage isn't perfect and besides there's a lot more infomorphs even than the clanking masses. And what would happen if a massive energy fluctuation happened as we tried to resleeve after school? And then what if an error happened that corrupted your last backup? We need data programmer-psychosurgeons that can adapt to new challenges for our egos more than we need cheap meatsheathes or even better optimized clanks." "Oh yeah, your 'postgender' dataparents care a lot about data degradation. Surprise, surprise. I've seen your parents' data in the deep mesh. They got genders alright." "SHUT UP ABOUT MY PARENTS' BIOTICS YOU BOTORGY GREASESTAIN."
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Wed, 2013-08-28 14:29
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Arenamontanus wrote:There are
Arenamontanus wrote:
There are a few stable polyamorous relationships I know of in my social network; given their existence I guess they may be more difficult to get than dyadic relations, but obviously not super-difficult.
In many western culture, honest communication about what one wants, what one really needs, and how one really feels is the exception and not the rule.
Arenamontanus wrote:
I am skeptical about the logistics because I find the logistics of having just one partner daunting. In the same way I can imagine that being steeped in the current western culture where polyamory is seen as exotic or even somewhat immoral, we overestimate how hard it is to achieve naturally and freely. Still, N partners means N(N-1)/2 relations that better work.
It also assumes that everyone in the group in question is concerned with bonding first and foremost in their lives. This is definitely not the case. Many of us prefer partnerships as secondary or tertiary aspects of our lives and not primary motivations.
Arenamontanus wrote:
Taking on my neuro hat, I suspect that if we found the neural basis for jealousy we might be able to medicate it.
*runs for cover in the poly-trenches.. here we go again...*
Arenamontanus wrote:
Not to mention deliberately strengthen emotional bonds - useful not just to make couples stay together, but also for making various constellations function better. And with EP style psychosurgery we might finesse things even better, like adjusting sexual preferences.
This is touched on in Stross' [u]Glasshouse[/u], where non-poly oriented people underwent psychosurgery to fit into a rather large poly-family more comfortably. Oddly, that did not cause much of a flamewar when it was published...
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Wed, 2013-08-28 14:36
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Arenamontanus wrote:"All my
Arenamontanus wrote:
"All my dads are in synths, except Jimmy who is info anyway. But I have one soft mom and one pod mom."
"Oh, him? That's Uncle Ricky. He's beta testing the latest generation of Cognite Novacrab morphs. He gives wicked awesome piggyback rides!"
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Wed, 2013-08-28 15:17
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
The Doctor wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
This is touched on in Stross' [u]Glasshouse[/u], where non-poly oriented people underwent psychosurgery to fit into a rather large poly-family more comfortably. Oddly, that did not cause much of a flamewar when it was published...
If you read that book you're unlikely to have moral problems with poly relationships (does anybody have that besides some religious nutters?), and the psychosurgery takes care of all the emotional issues that makes it unrealistic for most baseline humans. I don't even think I'd object to me and the gf getting psychosurgery to remove jealousy and other barriers to having sex with other people.
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Thu, 2013-08-29 02:18
davethebrave davethebrave's picture
Currently in a non-monogamous
Currently in a non-monogamous configuration with my partner of years, and I know quite a few poly/non-monogamous setups in different circles of friends in both cities I've lived in, and my 2 credits on this one is just that everyone's different. Lots of people are pretty well suited to monogamy long-term, unfortunately they don't always seem to find each other when that's true for both of them. That said, most people I know who've made the switch seem happier and more open with their partner(s) than they used to be with partners before, which one could chalk up to a lot of factors that aren't "humans are built for it" like Sex At Dawn argues or "those particular people are naturally predisposed" which in some (or maybe many) cases might not be true. I just see a lot of people taking both the same and different paths to both the same and different locations, and I can't say for sure that there's some evolutionary disposition to it...just that, again, by and large my non-monogamous/poly friends are on a speedier path of self-discovery with more impactful-seeming breakthroughs and self-discoveries...probably because they can crowdsource that shit better.
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Yours, Dave the Brave
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Thu, 2013-08-29 08:21
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Yes, unfortunately I believe
Yes, unfortunately I believe monogamy is quite widespread as a cultural norm in western society which means many people who might be okay with a polyamorous practice doesn't realize it themselves. Interestingly enough, roleplaying does offer an opportunity to explore one's own views about relationship subjects in a "safe" environment. Considering the troubles I have even getting one romantic relationship (not that I am unhappy really) I doubt it will ever be an issue in my life, but I hope that if the day comes I would be able to accept a polyamorous relationship. After all, love isn't exclusive.
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Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]
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Thu, 2013-08-29 08:27
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
While I have no interest in
While I have no interest in any other romantic relationship, I'd like to think if my husband was I'd be fine with that. I just want him to be happy, and if that would do so, that's a good thing. (Also, last I heard, monogamy may have evolved to keep males from killing children they weren't sure were theirs. I'm not overly worried about him doing that.)
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Thu, 2013-08-29 13:37
davethebrave davethebrave's picture
Eh, fortunate/unfortunate, it
Eh, fortunate/unfortunate, it's all up to everyone's individual comfort zones. I think forcing your comfort on someone else is weird, but I don't think anyone's comfort is weird (i.e. I don't think straight people should be forced to queer up their lives however much I think it'd improve their lives and vice versa with LGBT individuals being forced to "straighten up" in some way because their life/afterlife/workplace/neighbourhood won't be kind to them otherwise), and I think if someone is comforted by the most vanilla of vanillas their entire life, who am I to tell them vanilla isn't delicious? It IS delicious! Adding a rainbow of partner qualities doesn't make you better or worse, and same goes for the various stances on partner quantities. Some people are just happy, deliriously so with a great degree of self-awareness even, with one partner of the appropriate gender identity for their entire life doing one sex act over and over. Those people find each other, ya know! I don't think society should be proliferating more "alternative" sexualities, I think we should just all see that all sexualities are alternatives and none are "baseline" any more than there is a single human being-type that could be called baseline. Even in the same family, siblings and parents and cousins and uncles and aunts and nieces and nephews and grandwhatevers are all unique individuals, often with wildly different sexual preferences even IF they're all straight and monogamous! Monogamous coupling would be seen as pretty radically alternative to neolithic and earlier members of the genus homo, I tell you what, and I'm down with it still being seen as alternative, and embraced as such. Excluding the majority doesn't help a cause...let your freak flag fly, as they say! I fully support my monogamous friends as a non-monogamous human being in feeling free to be who they wanna be, in the bedroom and out, in love and out. I feel like if I was living in Eclipse Phase, I'd probably end up living in an outer system hab or a scum swarm, but that doesn't mean I can't live like it's already the case! And to bring it back to the original topic of discussion, I feel like the idea that sex is just for freaky fun times and that exowombs are for baby-makin' is another one of those things where individual preference is more important than societal frown-towns, so even if outside of the Jovian Republic it's not that common for people to make babies "the old fashioned way" (and I don't really know about that, I bet there's a few habs in the LLA where this would be considered very important, not to mention autonomist neo-primitivist habs and the like), I bet there's still people for whom it's just a preference to babymake the gestationy way even though they might, as a relationship unit, be -Bioconservatism -Primitivism +Morphological Freedom +Techno-Progressivism and so on. +Endowomb -Exowomb might still find themselves on that list!
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Yours, Dave the Brave
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