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Rants about Transhuman

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Thu, 2013-08-15 01:35
Decivre Decivre's picture
Lalande21185 wrote:First, let
Lalande21185 wrote:
First, let us consider the word 'Insane': * It is usually a very pejorative term. Calling someone insane is usually not a complement. * It has a very specific meaning in the core rulebook. So when this section says (paraphrasing), "People with mental disorders (illness) are insane," that is a bad thing. It perpetuates a negative stereotype, especially considering the usage of the term in the core book.
The problem is that "insane" also has a legally-used, non-pejorative meaning as well. As the Free Dictionary puts it, insanity is: "Mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior. Insanity is distinguished from low intelligence or mental deficiency due to age or injury." What other term could they have used to invoke this definition? I agree that within English colloquialisms, "insane" is used in a negative light and often as an insult. But is this something we should fault the game, and our legal system for, or is this something we should fault modern society for? It's like the term "gay"; it has both a functional and pejorative meaning, and often the latter exists to the detriment of the former.
Lalande21185 wrote:
Second, let us look at the word 'Rational': * Rational is usually a positive term. Calling someone rational is usually a good thing. So lets look at how the section in transhuman uses it (exact quote): "Remember that characters with a derangement or disorder still think of themselves in rational terms;" thus implying that they are [b]not[/b] rational. This is grossly insulting and serves to perpetuate the negative stereotypes about the mentally ill.
Again, the term "rational" has a very specific meaning beyond anything colloquially-positive. It references any action justified through reason, as opposed to emotion or any other impetus. So if they are discussing people that cannot be held accountable for their actions, then it equally makes sense that they are discussing the fact that such people often are under the illusion that actions induced by their severe mental debilitations are justified by a reasonable explanation. This is a limitation of our language. There aren't many other ways to say these things without the terms "insane" and "rationalize". Much like the term "theory", we just have to accept that there's a way that professionals use it, and a way that other people believe it to mean.
Lalande21185 wrote:
Additionally, the sections implying that the mentally ill are all timebombs waiting to go off should be seriously reworked if not excised entirely. This is one of the biggest negative stereotypes about the mentally ill, and that [em]Transhuman[/em] perpetuates it is a huge disappointment to me. The point I am trying to make is that negative stereotypes and stigmatization occurs in part because of which words we use to describe something. And the section in [em]Transhuman[/em] is chock full of the words that create negative stereotypes about the mentally ill.
But we are somewhat at an impasse. These words are very hard to replace in lingo, and unlike other words that have fallen out of professional use, they still are used in a technical context. If we were discussing a word like "retard", which no longer is used as any form of jargon and nowadays only exists as a pejorative term, I would agree with you. But we aren't. I suppose a better question might have been this: "how else would you have described people bereft of agency due to severe mental debilities, and how would you have described their tendency to believe that their unaccountable actions were justified in reason?"
Lalande21185 wrote:
Let me try and explain this another way: When young people are asked to list terms describing people with mental illness, they list negative terms (like 'mad', 'insane', and 'unpredictable'). This is not because people are sitting down and telling others that mentally ill people are all of these negative terms, it is because the culture (including pp. 121-122 of [em]Transhuman[/em]) uses these terms when talking about the mentally ill. This is a serious problem, because it causes people to stigmatize the mentally ill, and the mentally ill to avoid treatment do to stigmatization. Hopefully, you can see why I really don't like the section of [em]Transhuman[/em]. If not, I can try to elaborate some more.
I agree that there's a severe problem with how modern society views mental illness. It is among a long list of things that our culture has handled terribly. That said, while I agree that the language we use is part of the problem, there are other ways to handle it besides declaring words taboo. There has been a big commercial push today to try and remove the pejorative connotations of the word "gay". I prefer this method because it tries to solve the problem of people using such phrases in a pejorative manner. Choosing new words does nothing but create new targets for future pejorative phrases.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2013-08-15 04:25
Lalande21185 Lalande21185's picture
More on mental illness...
Decivre wrote:
The problem is that "insane" also has a legally-used, non-pejorative meaning as well. As the Free Dictionary puts it, insanity is: "Mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior. Insanity is distinguished from low intelligence or mental deficiency due to age or injury." What other term could they have used to invoke this definition?
Ahem...
Lalande21185 wrote:
The term 'Insanity' is more epidemic, but... I don't know how to explain this... it has a much narrower definition that makes it more acceptable. Let me try and elaborate: I realize that you have to have some word to describe the concept of a person with mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct their affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to completely uncontrollable impulsive behavior (that was paraphrased from a legal definition, btw). Using the word insanity exclusively in this context, which from what I remember the core book does (with the caveat that the book also assumes this is a permanent state), is to me is far less troubling than labeling everyone with a mental illness as "insane" as Transhuman does.
Note that my problems are specifically with the section in [em]Transhuman[/em] (which uses the colloquial definition), NOT the core book (which uses a variation of the legal definition and which I am discussing in my quote above).
Decivre wrote:
I agree that within English colloquialisms, "insane" is used in a negative light and often as an insult. But is this something we should fault the game, and our legal system for, or is this something we should fault modern society for? It's like the term "gay"; it has both a functional and pejorative meaning, and often the latter exists to the detriment of the former.
No one needs to be faulted. It just needs to recognized and avoided in the context in which it is inapproriate (such as the section in [em]Transhuman[/em]).
Decivre wrote:
Again, the term "rational" has a very specific meaning beyond anything colloquially-positive. It references any action justified through reason, as opposed to emotion or any other impetus. So if they are discussing people that cannot be held accountable for their actions, then it equally makes sense that they are discussing the fact that such people often are under the illusion that actions induced by their severe mental debilitations are justified by a reasonable explanation.
Your argument just makes the section of [em]Transhuman[/em] seem even worse: the author thinks that people with a mental illness is irrational.
Decivre wrote:
This is a limitation of our language. There aren't many other ways to say these things without the terms "insane" and "rationalize". Much like the term "theory", we just have to accept that there's a way that professionals use it, and a way that other people believe it to mean.
The existance of a formal/professional/legal definition in no way excuses the authors of the section in [em]Transhuman[/em] of using the colliqual definition.
Decivre wrote:
But we are somewhat at an impasse. These words are very hard to replace in lingo, and unlike other words that have fallen out of professional use, they still are used in a technical context.
Then use them exclusively in a technical context. Don't use them unneccesarly to describe those with mental health problems.
Decivre wrote:
If we were discussing a word like "retard", which no longer is used as any form of jargon and nowadays only exists as a pejorative term, I would agree with you. But we aren't.
Most people with mental health problems are not 'insane'. Most are not 'unpredictable'. Most are not 'irrational'. Most are not 'mad'. Using those terms to describe them is NOT acceptable.
Decivre wrote:
I suppose a better question might have been this: "how else would you have described people bereft of agency due to severe mental debilities, and how would you have described their tendency to believe that their unaccountable actions were justified in reason?"
Except the section I am refering to is not refering to those people. It is using the term (insanity) interchangably with mental disorder/illness and the other term, through negation, to describe all mentally ill people. That is my entire objection to the section! How would I handle it? I would NOT use inappropriate terms (irrational, insane, mad, unpredictable) to describe the mentally ill and I would avoid massivily harmful sterotypes (ticking timebomb) when advising players on how to play characters with mental health problems.
Quote:
I agree that there's a severe problem with how modern society views mental illness. It is among a long list of things that our culture has handled terribly. That said, while I agree that the language we use is part of the problem, there are other ways to handle it besides declaring words taboo. There has been a big commercial push today to try and remove the pejorative connotations of the word "gay". I prefer this method because it tries to solve the problem of people using such phrases in a pejorative manner. Choosing new words does nothing but create new targets for future pejorative phrases.
I agree with you partially here and I do think it is possible to reclaim some words by removing their pejorative connotations and new words may become pejorative. However, I don't think it applies here: as you mentioned above 'insanity' has a very specific legal definition and no amount of effort will reclaim it. 'Unpredictable' and 'irrational' are also both likely impossible to reclaim because they both feed directly into negative stereotypes about people with mental health problems. It would be like the gay community attempting to remove the pejoritive connotations from 'predator'.
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[url=http://awdaberton.wordpress.com/about/]Eclipse Phase Adventures[/url]
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Thu, 2013-08-15 04:29
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Lalande21185 wrote:
Lalande21185 wrote:
Second, let us look at the word 'Rational': * Rational is usually a positive term. Calling someone rational is usually a good thing. So lets look at how the section in transhuman uses it (exact quote): "Remember that characters with a derangement or disorder still think of themselves in rational terms;" thus implying that they are [b]not[/b] rational. This is grossly insulting and serves to perpetuate the negative stereotypes about the mentally ill. Additionally, the sections implying that the mentally ill are all timebombs waiting to go off should be seriously reworked if not excised entirely. This is one of the biggest negative stereotypes about the mentally ill, and that [em]Transhuman[/em] perpetuates it is a huge disappointment to me.
I agree with you much of the way Lalande. However, with this, I disagree. Sure, rational is a positive term. So is strong, but saying that someone with muscular degenerative disease isn't strong isn't demeaning, that's just the facts of the matter. So I agree that there is no reason to use prejudiced language about the mentally ill, but there are some very real problems with being mentally ill that we should be able to talk about factually. Unpredicability is another problem that characterizes many mental illnesses. Schizophrenics might commit suicide as one of the more extreme examples. Try asking the parent of schizophenic about how much they would like to be able to predict the time of next suicide attempt. Of course, calling them a "timebomb" is exagerating and implies violence, but I believe that is something you said the word "unpredictable" implies. One thing about the phrase from Transhuman that "characters with a derangement or disorder still think of themselves in rational terms" that bothers me a bit is that it just isn't in no way a universal truth. What they're describing are egosyntonic mental illnesses. But a lot of mental illnesses are egodystonic, where the subject doesn't feels that his mental illness is an illness, and that the feelings and behaviors are not his own, not rational, not welcome, etc. Most with OCD for example know very well that their impulses are irrational, but they still have a very hard time resisting them and feel great distress if they don't comply with them. Morbid jealousy on the other hand is often egosyntonic, where the person is completely convinced that their partner is cheating on them.
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Thu, 2013-08-15 06:35
Decivre Decivre's picture
Lalande21185 wrote:Ahem...
Lalande21185 wrote:
Ahem... -snip- Note that my problems are specifically with the section in [em]Transhuman[/em] (which uses the colloquial definition), NOT the core book (which uses a variation of the legal definition and which I am discussing in my quote above).
Actually, in both cases they use it in a strict mechanical concept... to reference characters with mechanical derangements and disorders. They don't really play all that fast and loose with the term at all. Any other character concepts that might have eccentricities which would be considered disorders in a modern context, but aren't represented mechanically as disorders in the game, are not forms of "insanity" as the game defines it.
Lalande21185 wrote:
Your argument just makes the section of [em]Transhuman[/em] seem even worse: the author thinks that people with a mental illness is irrational.
Some are. If I were to fault the author for anything, it would be the fact that he makes broad generalizations about all forms of derangements and disorders. I highly doubt that sufferers of PTSD, severe hallucinations or blackouts try to justify what happens... but a clinical megalomaniac might.
Lalande21185 wrote:
The existance of a formal/professional/legal definition in no way excuses the authors of the section in [em]Transhuman[/em] of using the colliqual definition.
I didn't interpret this section as using it in a colloquial manner. We probably won't see eye to eye on this.
Lalande21185 wrote:
Then use them exclusively in a technical context. Don't use them unneccesarly to describe those with mental health problems. -snip- Most people with mental health problems are not 'insane'. Most are not 'unpredictable'. Most are not 'irrational'. Most are not 'mad'. Using those terms to describe them is NOT acceptable.
In that same vein, most are [b]not[/b] going to be represented with the lucidity mechanics of Eclipse Phase. I think that's the reason I disagree with you on this. A person who has obsessive compulsive tendencies since birth is not represented in the same manner as a person who gains obsessive compulsive actions as a result of traumatic encounters with exsurgents. All derangements and disorders that are mechanically represented are intended to be interpreted within the game as being the result of severe mental trauma, not the sort of thing that might be hereditary or caused by some other stimulus. Perhaps this is the biggest thing we can fault the authors for. They created a sanity game mechanic which explicitly draws parallels between insanity as they define it and the consequences of mental trauma. What they failed to do was draw an explicit barrier between mental illness as a broader whole and mental illness as specifically caused by trauma. Though arguably, this is a conceit of the genre, and a consequence of the fact that most games with similar mechanics handle it the same way.
Lalande21185 wrote:
Except the section I am refering to is not refering to those people. It is using the term (insanity) interchangably with mental disorder/illness and the other term, through negation, to describe all mentally ill people. That is my entire objection to the section! How would I handle it? I would NOT use inappropriate terms (irrational, insane, mad, unpredictable) to describe the mentally ill and I would avoid massivily harmful sterotypes (ticking timebomb) when advising players on how to play characters with mental health problems.
But how do you advise players who are portraying characters with mental illnesses that [b]do exhibit these traits[/b]? A manic depressive person is irrational, unpredictable, and in some cases a ticking time bomb (and I say this as someone who lost a loved one to exactly that mental condition). There are other mental illnesses that are described precisely in those words. It was likely the author's intentions that the severe disorders they were describing were meant to be those sorts of illnesses, not the controllable and subtle illnesses of which many can be classified under.
Lalande21185 wrote:
I agree with you partially here and I do think it is possible to reclaim some words by removing their pejorative connotations and new words may become pejorative. However, I don't think it applies here: as you mentioned above 'insanity' has a very specific legal definition and no amount of effort will reclaim it. 'Unpredictable' and 'irrational' are also both likely impossible to reclaim because they both feed directly into negative stereotypes about people with mental health problems. It would be like the gay community attempting to remove the pejoritive connotations from 'predator'.
In the legal context, there's no need to reclaim anything. Insanity is a very specific concept with a negative connotation with regards to agency and legal accountability, but is not a pejorative within a social context unless used colloquially. Unpredictability might be pejorative in the broader context of mental illness, but only within the context of predictable disorders. Obviously someone who is suffering from muteness is not going to have any unpredictable states (they tend to always be mute), nor echopraxia. But mood swings, fugue states, and plenty of other listed disorders and derangements that the game discusses are, in fact, very unpredictable. At best we can fault them for being far too general... but to explicitly list the derangements and disorders that should be handled unpredictably would have expanded the word count significantly. As I said before, the game mechanics are likely intended solely to portray mental illnesses caused directly as a result of traumatic events, and not illnesses that might be epigenetic, hereditary, or as a result of physical brain injury. I fault the writers for not informing us of an explicit boundary between them.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2013-08-15 07:31
Gnothi_Sauton Gnothi_Sauton's picture
Lalande21185 wrote:
Lalande21185 wrote:
Fixing eidolons is easy however: limit them to running on high end (very large) servers. Also count them as like 5 infomorphs for the purposes of what the server can handle. Problem solved. [b]Running on Devices[/b] I like this section. Specifically the aptitude max section at the very beginning. I wish however that they also limited the speed based on the capability of the device, for example: ecto and ghostrider = 1 action. Large computer = 2 actions max. Server = 3 actions max. Special Server = 4 actions max. Not really a rant. More like a wish. Sighs.
Good suggestions. Thank you for using your system-time on this. *downloading and implementing protocols*
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Thu, 2013-08-15 11:58
Lalande21185 Lalande21185's picture
Mental Illness yet again...
Decirve wrote:
Actually, in both cases they use it in a strict mechanical concept... to reference characters with mechanical derangements and disorders.
No. Eclipse Phase p.122 (emphasis mine):
EclipsePhase wrote:
LUCIDITY (LUC) Lucidity is similar to Durability, except that it measures mental health and state of mind rather than physical well-being. Your Lucidity determines how much stress (mental damage) you can take before you are incapacitated or driven [b]insane[/b] (see Mental Health, p. 209). --snip-- [b]INSANITY[/b] RATING (IR) Your [b]Insanity[/b] Rating is the total amount of stress your mind can take before you go permanently [b]insane[/b] and are lost for good. [b]Insanity[/b] Rating equals LUC × 2.
Insane =/= mental disorder in [em]Eclipse Phase[/em]. --------------------- Let me respond to the rest your post by re-illustrate my point using a couple of different marginalized group, because it looks like people are still missing it: 1. Gay Men -- Gay men are stereotyped as being sexual predators. Some gay men are sexual predators. This does not make it okay for [em]Transhuman[/em] to call gay men sexual predators. 2. Young Black Men -- Young Black Men are stereotyped as being violent criminals. Some young black men are violent criminals. This does not make it okay for [em]Transhuman[/em] to call young black men violent criminals. 3. Jewish people -- Jews are stereotyped as being greedy. Some Jews are greedy. This does not make it okay for [em]Transhuman[/em] to call Jews greedy. The above three negative stereotypes are all ones that have caused harm to real individuals. That some people do conform to the stereotypes in no way justifies [em]Transhuman[/em] perpetuating them. Likewise: 4. Mentally Ill People -- Mentally Ill people are stereotyped as being unpredictable. Some mentally ill people are unpredictable. This is does not make it okay for [em]Transhuman[/em] to call mentally ill people unpredictable. Like above, this is a negativity stereotype that has real-world negative consequences. That [b]Transhuman[/b] perpetuates this stereotype is why I dislike this section in question. Hopefully, from the above, I don't need to explicitly state this but: Pointing out that some members of a group actually conform to the negative stereotype is in no way a valid argument against not including that stereotype in [em]Transhuman[/em]. Now you might also say: "eclipse phase is a game, the mental disorders are not meant to strictly model real world mental illness." This means that you have completely missed my point: I am objecting to the stigmatization of those with mental health problems through language and stereotyping in culture (including [em]Transhuman[/em]), pointing out that the mechanics don't strictly model real world mental illnesses does [b]nothing[/b] to diminish my objections to the section in question.
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[url=http://awdaberton.wordpress.com/about/]Eclipse Phase Adventures[/url]
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Thu, 2013-08-15 12:42
Decivre Decivre's picture
Lalande21185 wrote:No.
Lalande21185 wrote:
No. Eclipse Phase p.122 (emphasis mine):
EclipsePhase wrote:
LUCIDITY (LUC) Lucidity is similar to Durability, except that it measures mental health and state of mind rather than physical well-being. Your Lucidity determines how much stress (mental damage) you can take before you are incapacitated or driven [b]insane[/b] (see Mental Health, p. 209). --snip-- [b]INSANITY[/b] RATING (IR) Your [b]Insanity[/b] Rating is the total amount of stress your mind can take before you go permanently [b]insane[/b] and are lost for good. [b]Insanity[/b] Rating equals LUC × 2.
Insane =/= mental disorder in [em]Eclipse Phase[/em].
Actually, you precisely just proved my point. Every single usage of the term "insane" or "insanity" has involved the lucidity mechanics. Absolutely none of them have anything to do with broader mental health, and instead specifically referenced mental debilities resulting from traumatic events. Which was my point. They at no point reference people who have mental issues stemming from heredity, epigenetics, brain damage or any other factors. Insanity in the context of Eclipse Phase is a more narrow definition than can be used in real life.
Lalande21185 wrote:
Hopefully, from the above, I don't need to explicitly state this but: Pointing out that some members of a group actually conform to the negative stereotype is in no way a valid argument against not including that stereotype in [em]Transhuman[/em]. Now you might also say: "eclipse phase is a game, the mental disorders are not meant to strictly model real world mental illness." This means that you have completely missed my point: I am objecting to the stigmatization of those with mental health problems through language and stereotyping in culture (including [em]Transhuman[/em]), pointing out that the mechanics don't strictly model real world mental illnesses does [b]nothing[/b] to diminish my objections to the section in question.
As I've said before, the biggest problem with the section is that the writers did not emphasize that the mechanics of the game, nor the roleplaying info mentioned, are likely unintended to represent mental health as a whole. They are conceits to the genre, as Lovecraftian horror is about heroes fighting monstrosities and coming back mentally broken. Not with mental illnesses that leave them still socially functional, but gibbering messes traditionally left in asylums to rant about the horrors they witnessed, to people that think them delusional. And to an extent I agree. They should have made reference to this. The writers all too often implied that these mechanics are, to some degree, representing mental health in a broader context, rather than in the more narrow context of eldritch horror. But the "stereotypes" are an important aspect of the genre. Characters who go mad in Lovecraftian horror are not a traditional form of mentally ill. They are intended to be truly broken, mentally destroyed people. Lovecraft's stories, and the genre inspired by it, often ended with the protagonist shouting at the top of his lungs from the inside of a rubber room, voicing revelations to passersby who won't believe a word they say. Eclipse Phase tries to invoke this in the context of a Transhuman setting.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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