I'm not quite finished with it yet, though when it comes the "sense" abilities I am looking for some tips on who I should word them. I haven't finished any of the sense sleights. I have an idea of how they would function but still don't know how I want them to work or be worded. I need to clean up the mechanics and balance out some of the abilities. I have done a lot of theory mill, but I have yet to really play the game to the extent I need to get a good idea of balance. hence why I come here to get opinions on it. I'm still cleaning the literature so it's more presentable, so until then bear with the documents ugliness. thanks-

Erenthia wrote:

I like a lot of what I'm reading, though I feel some of this is over the line into soft-scifi territory. In fact I'm of two minds about the whole thing. I think psi needs a dramatic overhaul. As far as I can tell, nearly three-quarters of core psi can be reproduced with normal tech. What I think would be cool though is if your categories revolved around specific physical laws that the async actually [i]changes[/i] in a short radius. Cool things could come from changing the speed of light, changing the gravitational constant of the universe - again in a small area, perhaps even altering the rate at which time flows in an area. I'm sure others on this board could think of more interesting laws to break (something involving thermodynamics perhaps) In fact, I might do something along these lines myself.

I have always been under the assumption that the themes they were going for in psi were intended to pay homage to the fosterlings of the Cthulhu mythos, who are humans with Great Old One parentage on their father's side. They spend most of their lives thinking they are human, but with whispers of madness in their minds. At some point, this parentage would trigger a transformation into something alien; a concept which is referenced a lot in writings about asyncs. So abilities which go significantly beyond human capacity tend not to fit those themes. But I agree, I've always wanted PC asyncs to perhaps get access to a weaker level 3 psi trait, with sleights that give them the ability to bend, rather than break, the laws of physics. I'm hoping that this happens when asyncs either get a bigger writeup, or perhaps after some metaplot event to unfold in some upcoming book.

kaigen wrote:

I'm not quite finished with it yet, though when it comes the "sense" abilities I am looking for some tips on who I should word them. I haven't finished any of the sense sleights. I have an idea of how they would function but still don't know how I want them to work or be worded. I need to clean up the mechanics and balance out some of the abilities. I have done a lot of theory mill, but I have yet to really play the game to the extent I need to get a good idea of balance. hence why I come here to get opinions on it. I'm still cleaning the literature so it's more presentable, so until then bear with the documents ugliness. thanks-

Now that I've finally had a chance to read through the material, I must say that I like where you are going. But this needs a LOT of cleanup as it is. Strain modifiers are all over the place, ranging from very low to instantly fatal. Many of the sleights are oddly worded and quite confusing (for instance, I can't make heads or tails of the final sentence in the description of Precise Premonitions... does the player get to use the Sense skill instead of Fray during the reroll alongside a +20, or must he make a Sense check in order to get that +20?). The rules regarding pushes are quite confusing, and I can't really tell how many you are suppose to start with. Finally, I'm not fond of the "you may spend your CP for credits as CP for Psi related traits" ability, because it largely limits characters based around this high level psi concept to only characters with these backgrounds. The prices for these traits are far too enormous to reasonably earn during play, so during creation is the only option, and this option is only open to your two backgrounds. I do like the ideas behind this, though. I would say scale back the sleights, especially the ones you granted such a high strain mod to... the ability to phase change a solid to a liquid becomes worthless if it requires your head to explode in the process. Playtest this a lot because many sleights at first glance look worthless or suicidal to me. And finally get your playgroup to help you edit this document; ask them what's confusing and what needs clarification, and alter accordingly. Make this more user-friendly, so I can help you stress-test it as well. Here are some specific issues I spotted, in no specific order. I'll have more either if my group takes a look, or after you fix it up some more: [list][*]Ignite has a flaw in it. A critical success on Ignite is guaranteed to harm the async because it creates a 10 meter-radius explosion only 5 meters away from them. [*]Mind Lance is based on one of the most weak sleights in the book, and it makes it only slightly stronger at too great an expense. Change it to stress damage or amp up what it can do at default. [*]Your powers need more ranges than the psi abilities present in the core book. I understand that most attack and manipulation sleights work at touch range, but this makes less sense at this scale, when you are adding in effects like telekinesis and the ability to make singularities. These often become suicidal or largely worthless at such a close range. These abilities should work at range, even if it's only a short one. [*]Perfect hide is nearly completely worthless. The strain is so great that you'll likely take immediate wounds just from the modifier, and its effects end when you just move. It needs to be bumped up a LOT to justify the costs. [*]Psi Fabber is worthless. There are only a few morphs that won't instantly die from using it (most of them whales), and it needs to be sustained. [*]Mind Slaver seems to actually be weaker than Subliminal, despite being intended as a stronger version of it. Subliminal allows you to permanently implant a thought in someone's mind, while this seems to only temporarily have the same effect. I would separate this ability from subliminal completely, make it so that you take puppet-control of the person's body and extend its duration more... Temp(Minutes) at the very least. [*]Change Matter needs work. Way too much strain. I'd hate for someone to die because they wanted to freeze a pool of water. [*]Overwhelm Defenses, like its predecessor Penetration, is WAY too weak. I would recommend a straight strain mod rather than one based on how much AP is applied. Otherwise, you're largely just taking harm to cause harm at a 2:1 ratio, which is terrible.[/list] All this talk of psi makes me want to post up the houserules our tables have thought of... hmm....

Erenthia wrote:

Well it could just be that I lack any real knowledge of Cthulhu material and am coming from a background of more cinematic versions of psi (Comics, D&D, etc). Not that those versions really fit with EP, it's just what I'm more used to seeing. That said, I do feel my frustration is valid when I see so many sleights that do nothing more than give a bonus to a few skill rolls. Even if it's actually is legitimately impressive that a character in a flat could have something in all ways better than a Mnemonic Augmentation (Hyperthymesia Sleight IIRC) but the fact that someone [i]does[/i] have the Mneumonic Augmentation can do essentially the same thing, albeit more slowly, takes away from the awe. Hell I'm not even sure Hyperthymesia is better than Eidetic Memory.

Oh, Hyperthymesia is definitely better than Eidetic Memory. Someone who has an eidetic memory might be able to remember every single word out of a book they read, verbatim. A person with Hyperthymesia will be able to remember how many scratches were on each page, even though he wasn't really paying attention to that. He will also remember that the guy sitting across from him in the bookstore had three buttons on his pants, and he heard 7 farts that day... then he'll tell you from whom and at which times. Eidetic memory gives you perfect recall of the things you want to remember. Hyperthymesiacs remember every single thing that they even remotely notice, whether they were looking for it or not.

Erenthia wrote:

This is a derivation of the Exsurgent Virus we're talking about here. I feel like Asyncs should be able to do things other players can't - just with an associated cost, but I guess you get into playstyle issues there. Like how do you make a cost that actually balances out without going too far and becoming crippling? Or not going far enough and letting Asyncs outclass everyone, and I doubt PHS wants EP to have the same problems D&D 3.5 had (I loved that system, but it was incredibly flawed).

Asyncs tend to be very interesting social animals, capable of reading and manipulating people in ways heretofore unheard of. This actually makes for a fairly unique take on psychic powers, as you rarely ever hear of settings where psychics end up knowing people better than people do. While psi is pretty impressive, the downsides in the game currently largely outweigh many of the benefits. Psi chi skills tend to be more-expensive-than-normal implants with unique added benefits that carry with you from body to body (so long as you stick to biomorphs). Psi gamma abilities tend to be an eclectic mix of detection powers, social engineering tricks and combat abilities. All of this comes at the cost of insanity and the rapid draining of durability while using your most effective powers. Your selection of sleights can vary your character's power from master of manipulation to guy with a couple of one-shot tricks.

Erenthia wrote:

That's still only better than Mnemonic Augmentation by virtue of it's speed.

Also note that mnemonic augmentation memories can be edited with hacking, while eidetic memory and hyperthymesia memories can only be edited with psychosurgery. That would be one more significant advantage that the latter two have.

Erenthia wrote:

A lot of sleights just come down to skill bonuses, which can be attained other ways. I get that they are using a different medium to get those skill bonuses, but I don't know what advantage psi has aside from traveling with you when you egocast. Predictive Boost is one of the few exceptions, though the description doesn't really give a good idea of how it can be used, so I tend to treat it as hypercognition. The Async puts together clues using altogether alien algorithms stored in his mind and can come to conclusions that he actually can't explain but knows is true. Although you could argue that Predictive Boost and Probability Mapping Software are the same, they're both described so vaguely that I'd just house-rule that they're different. Grok is another example of the few sleights I think are great. Downtime is another. But why would anyone use Ambience Sense, Cognitive Boost, Emotion Control, or what is one of the worst offenders in my opinion: Savant Calculation (when Math Wiz can be taken as an ego trait). If there's a difference between those abilities and ones that provide similar benefits I wish they'd spell them out. If I had a player using psi, I wouldn't know what to information to give them except for the obvious ones like Deep Scan and Thought Browse. Maybe I'd like psi more if the write-ups were more explicit. (As a side note, I'd like a sleight that allowed the aysnc to perform psychosurgery on a target they touch, that would be pretty awesome and fairly explicit)

The ability to transfer from biomorph to biomorph (or brain box to brain box, now) is actually pretty significant, as it's like having free implants put in every brain you happen to be in. It can save you a ton on favors in comparison. Admittedly, this isn't significantly more advantageous than many traits (eidetic memory is almost as good as hyperthymesia, math boost is almost as good as savant calculation, and so on), but note that sleights cost half as much as equivalent traits often do, often for slightly more effect. As for the sleights you think are terrible, note that Ambience Sense gives you specialization-equivalent bonuses to four different skills for [sup]1[/sup]/[sub]4[/sub] the total Rez cost, which stacks with specializations. Emotion Control gives you defensive bonuses against all social manipulations and sleights. And Savant Calculation by itself allows you to basically auto-succeed on any math calculation tests (so long as you don't need to know how you got to the answer). I won't defend Cognitive Boost. Like Qualia, it is severely underpowered, and needs its duration extended to be worth a damn. Many sleights are hit and miss. Some are great (Subliminal is godly, and by far one of the most powerful sleights in the game, even when you count the things that Exsurgents can do), and some are downright worthless (Penetration is utterly worthless in every conceivable way... it's the only sleight that's actually more useful when you [i]don't[/i] use it). It takes a while to figure out which are which. And while an async can't do psychosurgery, Subliminal is pretty damn close, and in some cases better.

Erenthia wrote:

Edit: So all this talk about psi has gotten me rereading the sleights and I am finding some things I didn't before. For instance I misread the part about strain. I thought you always took SV rather than DV which makes it much more useable. Also some have a nice gestalt when combined. For instance Pattern Recognition, Predictive Boot and Savant Calculation together create a sort of limited omniscience. Ambience Sense, Sensory Boost and Omni Awareness grant a character unprecedented knowledge of his surroundings. And Grok combined with Instinct makes for a terrifying hacker. Instinct with Enhanced Creativity should go well on a psychosurgeon. If you have any other suggestions for interesting combinations, do let me know.

Grok is only useful if you have a high aptitude and no skill. Otherwise it is largely worthless. Great fun when you're finding alien artifacts (because the boost specifically helps with things you have no clue about), not so much if you're trained in it (so unless you're fine with being a hacker that has only 50 skill, and only if you have 30 Cognition, it's not a great choice; Instinct is pretty awesome, though, and makes asyncs into terrifying plan formulators). As for great combos, Mimic and Charisma make you an unstoppable doppelganger capable of imitating and fooling anyone. Static and Scramble make you damn near invisible to other asyncs using nearly any of their detection and sense powers. Cloud Memory and Deep Scan make for a mind probing that the victim won't even be witness to.

One of my players does some professional editing, so I asked them to help out. All the stuff before the highlighted area is nice and clean because they already went over it. I'm trying to get that finished but I am asking a favor so I'm trying to patient. In regards to the costs being all over the place, the really high ones are that way on purpose, the idea was that there are still some things that can only be accomplished by an exsurgent epsilon. The original idea was rules for them. I haven't made the entry for the exsurgent epsilons yet though. I specifically put some powers out of the range of different levels of character and game type. If someone were playing a high psi campaign then more would be available. However even then there are still sleights that only an exsurgent can do no matter what one may try. So to the point of the ability "you may spend your CP for credits as CP for Psi related traits" I really like this one it opens up more point to be spent in psi traits while taking chunks out of someones ability to combine it with stuff you can buy. I understand that it's pretty limited in its availability but I really wouldn't know where else to put it, it just doesn't fit as trait, though I could make another very generic background that basically gives that and lets the player pick a bunch of stuff. Otherwise I'd like to keep something like it. suggestions? Range, I was trying to make range something that one could get but they would have to pay for it. Range is a general push. Though now that you mention it, I do think I'll edit it so that it's cheaper for "close" and and any more is harder. Your bullet point list is just the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I'll send you a PM when the doc is edited and cleaned up so you can take another look and be able to understand my crazed ramblings =_=; Lastly; while in general I think that psi is in general a bit on the weak side, over all it's probably not that bad and balanced in it's own way. I wanted to make this out of the idea that I thought that it could really fit in a setting that was focused on earth, the TITAN's, and of course the ETI. Also I like telekinetic powers, that's likely the bigger reason. I was never a PC mage in D&D so this labor of love is out of liking the subtle differences between magic and psi. All that being said, I'm not really trying to overhaul psi but more make an add on book that can be plugged and unplugged from any game, and expansion like thing. I wanted to see balanced overt psychic powers in the hands of the PC if not just a little and even at a really high cost in making the character and in playing them. Thanks for your help;

Erenthia wrote:

I'm not saying there's no advantage, just that sleights that do very similar but upgraded versions of what other sleights do seems a tad vanilla.

In many cases, I agree. It's just that in this case, hyperthymesia combines the instantaneous access and inability to hack of eidetic memory with the nuanced detail noticing benefits of mnemonic augmentations in a package that travels with you from body to body. At half the CP/Rez cost of eidetic memory.

Erenthia wrote:

You have to spend 20 CP just to be able to spend points on Sleights. As for ambience sense, you could have a ghost-rider with an AI providing you with bonuses to at least that many skills. Now obviously there's nothing stopping an async from doing this as well, but I'm not really saying that ambience sense is [i]underpowered[/i] I was just saying I can't see why someone would take it when you could get those features without having to spend 20 CP and a disorder before you can qualify. Now that I've looked into it a bit more I can see that if you combine it with other things. There are a number of sleights that I don't think are useful by themselves that I think are worth taking as part of a package.

Considering how many sleights imitate 10-point traits, buying such sleights will mathematically allow you to break even with a character that buys traits exclusively after 4 sleights (5 sleights if you have psi level 2). Everything beyond that is pure profit. Disorders are treatable, and in some cases can be lived with so long as they focus your characters actions rather than hinder them directly (or you find various ways to make your disorders livable; my character suffers from xeno-autophagy, and lives most of his time in an advanced armor suit to fight off the urge to eat his own flesh). How usable an async is is largely determined by the disorders they have.

Erenthia wrote:

Agreed. That or raise its boost to 10. As it is, it's somewhat inferior to Drive (the drug).

Actually, it's utterly and entirely inferior to Drive. Drive lasts 8 hours and has an average risk of addiction, with no other detrimental effects. Cognitive Boost and Qualia last only a few turns (an actual maximum of 8 turns if you have a character with 40 willpower), and require you to damage yourself in order to activate them. A drug gland is a completely better investment than either sleight.

Erenthia wrote:

Subliminal is definitely awesome. Penetration would be better if there were more options for Asyncs to do direct damage. Now that I think about it, Psychic Stab could be a great way of murdering someone without leaving much forensic evidence behind, but I don't see it being useful in combat.

Penetrate would still be completely worthless. Penetrate literally allows you to do 1 extra damage to a target of psychic stab by doing 1 damage to yourself. It is the least efficient gain in combat damage humanly possible. As for Psychic Stab, it too comes off as one of the weaker sleights (in fact, all sleights attached to the Psi Assault skill are extremely weak). I voiced the opinion that Psychic Stab needed to at least gain another 1d10 in damage to be worthwhile a long time ago. The new trait in Transhuman fixes this somewhat, but it's sad that you have to pay 10 points to have a middling sleight. I wish that Potent Mind granted 1d10 damage to all Psi Assault sleights, and Psychic Stab were given an extra 1d10 damage in its own writeup.

Erenthia wrote:

With the exception of alientech/TITANtech Grok is probably most useful for hacking prototypes. Basically any time the GM would say, "You can't use Infosec because you've never seen something like this and you wouldn't know where to start" well now you [i]do[/i] know where to start. On the flip side I think someone somewhere must have an inverted version of Grok, allowing them to [i]make[/i] things they don't understand, because I don't see a sensible way for creating psi-drugs even though they exist in the game. Instinct is also especially good for Programming. Creating an Expensive blueprint goes from 5 weeks to 3.5 days, and that's if you don't assume that "5 weeks" actually means "200 hours at 40 hours/week". A x60 simulspace might be faster, but this is free and if you add in Enhanced Creativity you might be able to justify some freaky shit. If the duration of Cognitive Boost were sensible, you could create a very workable async engineer. Okay, so I'm starting to get my issues with psi resolved now. After I look at the core rules a little more, I'll have more to say about the module.

I find that Pattern Recognition is a better hacker sleight. While Instinct is one of the better traits for mental task actions, I find at my tables that Programming is one of the least-used skills in the game. Players seem to find it more efficient to cash favors to get blueprints or software, or simply trade for blueprints and software, rather than programming it themselves. Maybe if the game played out in longer timescales, this would change. But as it stands, I rarely see it happen. As for psi drugs, I look at them as the end-result of 7 years of Cognite psi research, as well as any other psi research happening in the system. Someone is inevitably going to come up with tech that works with psi. Drugs seem like a natural first step.

Decivre wrote:

In many cases, I agree. It's just that in this case, hyperthymesia combines the instantaneous access and inability to hack of eidetic memory with the nuanced detail noticing benefits of mnemonic augmentations in a package that travels with you from body to body. At half the CP/Rez cost of eidetic memory.

Yeah, I'm starting to see where you're coming from on that one. Especially when you roll in with other sleights, you can get some pretty cool gestalt functionality.

Decivre wrote:

Considering how many sleights imitate 10-point traits, buying such sleights will mathematically allow you to break even with a character that buys traits exclusively after 4 sleights (5 sleights if you have psi level 2). Everything beyond that is pure profit. Disorders are treatable, and in some cases can be lived with so long as they focus your characters actions rather than hinder them directly (or you find various ways to make your disorders livable; my character suffers from xeno-autophagy, and lives most of his time in an advanced armor suit to fight off the urge to eat his own flesh). How usable an async is is largely determined by the disorders they have.

I'm actually a little annoyed at the sleight limitation, but I haven't done much with asyncs yet so I don't know how much of an issue it really is. And as much of a power gamer as I normally am, I don't like looking at psi as just a way to get cheaper traits. What I'd like, ideally, are expensive but powerful traits.

Decivre wrote:

I find that Pattern Recognition is a better hacker sleight. While Instinct is one of the better traits for mental task actions, I find at my tables that Programming is one of the least-used skills in the game. Players seem to find it more efficient to cash favors to get blueprints or software, or simply trade for blueprints and software, rather than programming it themselves. Maybe if the game played out in longer timescales, this would change. But as it stands, I rarely see it happen. As for psi drugs, I look at them as the end-result of 7 years of Cognite psi research, as well as any other psi research happening in the system. Someone is inevitably going to come up with tech that works with psi. Drugs seem like a natural first step.

Pattern Recognition is useful all of the time. Grok seems like it would be extremely useful every once in a while and in important situations. But that could just be because of how I GM. That's sad about Programming. I find it to be one of the most powerful skills in the game (but then again, I was always the only guy who took Magic Item Creation feats in D&D). The thing about Programming is, it applies to simulspaces and AI creation as well as blueprints. And once you have a method of time acceleration (probably simulspace for most characters) you have an amazing tool for earning Rep. You churn out blueprints and open source them (for autonomists) or sell the IP (in your in the hypercorps) or give it to Firewall or any number of things. I know other GMs tend to use exotic items as macguffins, but I rarely go that direction (unless I have a specific reason to railroad my characters). Normally what I like to see is player-made solutions to problems that I created with no thought give to how they would solve them. Player's making up gear, personal augmentations, etc are things I wish I saw more of when I GM'd. Obviously the first thing you create is a personal simulspace that gives a bonus to Programming and can take you to x60. After that a Trivial item takes 3 real time hours to create all the way up to Expensive being 14 hours. (Again assuming that tasks of "1 week" [i]don't[/i] mean 40 hours, which would make significantly faster. ) I think it would be especially fun on an async character who wanted to start inventing "psitech" items for various purposes (like extending the range of sleights for instance)

Erenthia wrote:

Pattern Recognition is useful all of the time. Grok seems like it would be extremely useful every once in a while and in important situations. But that could just be because of how I GM. That's sad about Programming. I find it to be one of the most powerful skills in the game (but then again, I was always the only guy who took Magic Item Creation feats in D&D). The thing about Programming is, it applies to simulspaces and AI creation as well as blueprints. And once you have a method of time acceleration (probably simulspace for most characters) you have an amazing tool for earning Rep. You churn out blueprints and open source them (for autonomists) or sell the IP (in your in the hypercorps) or give it to Firewall or any number of things. I know other GMs tend to use exotic items as macguffins, but I rarely go that direction (unless I have a specific reason to railroad my characters). Normally what I like to see is player-made solutions to problems that I created with no thought give to how they would solve them. Player's making up gear, personal augmentations, etc are things I wish I saw more of when I GM'd. Obviously the first thing you create is a personal simulspace that gives a bonus to Programming and can take you to x60. After that a Trivial item takes 3 real time hours to create all the way up to Expensive being 14 hours. (Again assuming that tasks of "1 week" [i]don't[/i] mean 40 hours, which would make significantly faster. ) I think it would be especially fun on an async character who wanted to start inventing "psitech" items for various purposes (like extending the range of sleights for instance)

That's kind of one of the idea's I'm trying to follow. The new purpose of this add on is to help in a campaign I'm creating, I'm calling it; "The Black Alpha conspiracy". its about a high end covert ops group that is trying to retake earth by any means necessary. They have there hands in the pockets of both Firewall and Project-Ozma, and are also partially backed buy the ultimate's. Short back round; During the fall they fought along side a Promethean to protect, then evacuate a large city from a TITAN's assault . At the end, the Promethean was lost but the TITAN was subverted and was recovered by this group. Thats how the tech for the stuff in the add on I'm making exists. I'm writing up these rules first to see if they are well received and if so I was going to move forward with this story and if not I'd just scarp it and work on something else. >_>;

Decivre wrote:

I actually prefer the way the corebook handles Psi Epsilon. At that scale of power, just let the GM assume the exsurgent can do whatever the GM wants them to do. Sleights aren't necessary, they just bog down what is intended to be one of the scariest possible things for a team to go against. It's like statting Galactus. There's no need.

I think the abstract method is fine in situations as well. I liked the idea of limiting their power to some extent by having them restrained to at least a little bit of rules. If I wanted to have an interesting conflict between a human force and the party against an epsilon. to do that I would have to determine how strong the guy is in every situation and in the end I would have to "let" the group resolve the situation, if that was what I wanted, if not they simply will not win. I like the idea of giving them the sense of accomplishment from an extremely potent, over powered enemy and resolving the situation. (not necessarily "defeat") as well I like the idea of the unexpected from the story tellers, end were they find a way to get beat the odds, despite the overwhelming power of the foe. I think that both styles have merit and should be allowed. but with no rules for the epsilon, one way is not possible.

Decivre wrote:

I don't even consider it sci-fi. I consider it Lovecraftian horror, which is an odd hybridization of sci-fi and fantasy. Some people dislike these elements in their game, which is fine. But it's part of the "we don't know shit about what's in the universe" themes of the setting. I personally like them, and my first character was an async. But I can see why some people dislike them.

I don't understand that kind of persons issue/way of thinking. I feel like there is so much that has to have some "fuzzy logic" applied to it, like most Sci-fi universes. But I'm usually willing to just accept that they just like it better some their way. As long as I don't lose out on anything because of it. ; kaigen