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DNA and babies

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Edeski Edeski's picture
DNA and babies
Another quick question...if you are, say a third generation Martian, would you have been born as a Ruster or a Flat? If your Grandparents were reasonably skilled nanofabbers/gene hackers, could they have hacked the 'copy protection' on their bodies, so they could reproduce? Also, somewhere in the core rules it mentions searching for DNA as evidence. Surely most DNA traces will be from corporate-designed morphs, and will not be unique? If people have children, they will therefore not share the DNA of their parents but, rather, that of their parents' morphs? Complicated stuff... Ede
"For those who fight for it, life has a flavour the sheltered will never know"
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I've never seen a corporate
I've never seen a corporate product with out a unique serial number. Considering that evry toaster produced has one. Probably every morph has one too. considering the massive amount of modification required to make a ruster in the first place it would be trivial to insert a unique serial number in any of the common markers of any biomorph. How these might show up in the offspring might depend which markers were used or where the identifying base pare codes are placed. The kid could have genetic ID from one both or a mix of both parents. Regardless, the offspring of two clones is not necessarily a clone itself. It should, at least, show mutations in mitochondrial DNA. Of course this is only a concern after issues like GRM have been addressed.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Myrtle Myrtle's picture
Your DNA will be determined
Your DNA will be determined by whatever morphs were used for reproduction. So two rusters will produce another ruster. Furthermore, I guess that all rusters of the same production line share the same DNA (with a few tweaks, like sex) and are clones of each other. DNA testing would still be possible, if every morph gets a unique marker sequence. Also, like you've said, corporate produced morphs are copy protected. These morphs are therefore unfertile without further modification. Two more questions: Are different morph types genetically compatible at all? And is the classical way of reproducing even that common anymore? I guess artificial and external wombs would be quite widespread.
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
There's no cannon answer to
There's no cannon answer to those questions. here are some popular threads containing arguments on the subject http://eclipsephase.com/reproduction-age-transhumanity http://eclipsephase.com/born-ultimate

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Yes, the reproduction threads
Yes, the reproduction threads are the perennial feature of this forum. From a biotech standpoint, the designers of morphs could have decided that (1) all morphs should be able to reproduce naturally with at least flat humans, (2) should not be able to reproduce, (3) will reproduce but insert extra morph-specific chromosomes, (4) reproduce with compatible morphs if some arbitrarily complex set of conditions apply. Which of 1-4 to choose would have depended on stage of technology, local laws, public opinion, marketing strategy, and the company's theory of what the future would be like. That is, they could be all over the place. Take 1 for example. Splicers are probably often in this category, since they are just flats with bad alleles removed. They would be able to breed with each other (producing splicers) and with flats (producing a mixture). But you could have a morph with extra chromosomes with the specific morph genes that are not expressed in the gonads, allowing the morph to have children with other morphs with this feature, splicers and flats. The offspring would likely be like splicer offspring, completely lacking the enhancements on the extra chromosomes. Option 2 sounds extreme, but in societies where enhancement is the norm you might even view having a random child a form of prospective child endangerment. This way all children will be born wanted and with somebody checking that they do not get any nasty bugs. Option 3 is a real mess. The sperm or ova of the morph will have extra chromosomes that might not have any counterpart in their partner: this either leads to non-viable offspring, offspring with partial chromosome sets (which might be everything from perfectly fine to sterile and genetically impaired) or - when mating with another morph with the same system - some mixture. Which may or may not make sense. I suspect that unless the designers were sloppy they would try to reduce the amount of random genetic weirdness and block the more stupid outcomes - maybe Skinthetic morphs can breed with each other, but the chromosomes self-destruct if you breed with a Cognite morph (even if it has a compatible chromosome number). This shades over to Option 4. In principle we are talking software here: the genes that control what happen are able to do an arbitrary number of "if ... then ..." operations, error checks and sense the presence of chemicals. You could have morphs that can reproduce with other morphs if they inject an artificial hormone, specific for the morph type. You could have morphs that produce cancerous tumors as offspring if they breed with a competitor morph ("Read the fine print: we are *not* liable for damage due to violations of our intellectual property, especially not when done using a product of another company.") Imagine all the strangeness of backwards and forwards compatibility, localization, copy protection and software patches, and apply it to the genome. Finally back to the original question: in the old days, morphs were not so elaborate and were essentially just boosted flats. So they should have been genetically compatible. I suspect the first ruster morphs were like this, while later forms (the ones with planned obsolescence) would be more like option 2 or later. Breaking reproductory copy protection is probably not too hard. Cells in the body needs to divide, so there will be mitosis all over the place, including stem cells. In order to get a child you need meiosis to get a sperm or egg, and this is where one can block things. The obvious thing is to prevent genes needed for developing the right types of cells or tissues from expressing, but the hacker might break that or just take cells into the lab and start adding the right enzymes "by hand". A deeper block would be to have hidden genes that make products that mess up key steps like recombination. But a dedicated hacker might just sequence the whole genome of the partners, recombine them "by hand", and then synthetise the DNA and put it into an empty egg. Way beyond 2013 tech, but pretty simple in a few decades.
Extropian
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Quote:But a dedicated hacker
Quote:
But a dedicated hacker might just sequence the whole genome of the partners, recombine them "by hand", and then synthetise the DNA and put it into an empty egg. Way beyond 2013 tech, but pretty simple in a few decades.
My personal feeling is, when it gets to that point, it no longer maters who the original genetic stock was sourced from, you may as well order your baby from the catalog of a reputable dealer. You've pretty much killed all of the cutsie; "she gets that from her father's/mother's side of the family" comments because in reality you've completely avoided the genetic crapshoot that contemporary people love to romanticize.

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:My personal
OneTrikPony wrote:
My personal feeling is, when it gets to that point, it no longer maters who the original genetic stock was sourced from, you may as well order your baby from the catalog of a reputable dealer. You've pretty much killed all of the cutsie; "she gets that from her father's/mother's side of the family" comments because in reality you've completely avoided the genetic crapshoot that contemporary people love to romanticize.
Well, you would still recombine the baby from the parents (although you could include any number of them, as well as some "must have" new genes from dealers). So you could have all the parents sit together and generate the random number seed in a little ceremony. "Dad, why am I named 'The Royal Sampler'?"
Extropian
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
There is the possibility that
There is the possibility that, even if you break the conventional GRM, there might be a few safe-guards that make at least sexual reproduction a bad idea, even near clones. There are plenty of genes that are fine when you have a mismatched pair (heterozygous?), but are lethal with a pair of recessive genes, meaning that a child would have a 1/4 chance of dying young for each such gene setup. Even without malicious intent, the randomization of sexual reproduction gives you a good chance of screwing up some carefully selected choice that gives high-end morphs their superior quality, unless you screened the child's DNA very carefully. Plus, certain bio-augments are not in your DNA (and no synthetic ones are) so you will have to clone and implant those separately. I'd probably rule that most biologically reproduced morphs, if viable at all, are likely going to lose some quality compared to their higher-end parent (i.e. two exalts are likely to get something less than exalt, if perhaps greater than splicer).
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
nerdnumber1 wrote:There is
nerdnumber1 wrote:
There is the possibility that, even if you break the conventional GRM, there might be a few safe-guards that make at least sexual reproduction a bad idea, even near clones. There are plenty of genes that are fine when you have a mismatched pair (heterozygous?), but are lethal with a pair of recessive genes, meaning that a child would have a 1/4 chance of dying young for each such gene setup.
There are even reasons to want to have such genes. There is a (mildly controversial) theory that there is an intelligence advantage of having one copy of a "damaged" allele for the gene involved in Gaucher's disease and perhaps the genes in a few related diseases. If that were true, you could imagine all Mentons having heterozygous advantage, but if they were to have children one in four would suffer a neurodegenerative disease (and another one in four would lack the intelligence boost from this particular gene). Randomization is not always good.
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