As an aside, I think it should be noted that the MTA is not associated with the Church of Latter Day Saints, but with the Humanity+ Organization. So I doubt that the Church has the same views with regards to bioethics and future technologies as this specific group of Mormons do. That said, I actually think that most religions will make it through the Fall in one shape or form, other than perhaps the smaller cultural faiths which die off along with their people. The question isn't which ones will survive, but how will they look after the Fall? I think that due to the sheer difficulties of inter-system travel, most faiths will be far more decentralized than they are today. I can see the Latter Day Saints having multiple prophets, rather than one. The ones that are still centralized will likely be limited in how far the church reaches... the Catholic church likely only exists within the Jovian Republic, and has nearly no presence everywhere else. But microservers that host sermons, texts and teachings will make it feasible that any faith can have a near-ubiquitous presence for those members that have no nearby church.

I agree with Nezu, there would probably be more religion most people think. Like the old saying goes, there are no athists in fox holes. Christianity: In regards to Christianity, I think it might be more widely spread than some think. I definately see the conservative Protestant and Catholic groups doing well in the Junta. I will point out that you would probably see a Christian population in the LLA, at least among the early settlers and hyperelites. Alot of them would be coming from America and the EU and they might hold onto for nostalgia and a continued connection with Earth as much for actual faith. I do think you would see is some of the more esoteric/mystical rites of the Orthodox Church in the Outer System. While the are not rooted in Rationalism like much of western christianity, they are much more open to hidden truths and mysticism which would do well among the more rebellious/independent/experimental minded polit blocks and brinkers. Hindism..eh? I don't know alot about it so I can't comment on how it would do. Islam seems like it would do well like they talked about in the book. Judaism I see living on post Fall. If you don't you need your head examined. I can see Chinese/Korean/Japanese faiths/philosophies carrying over quite nicely. It could be just me but I could see varients of Taoism being developed by AGIs. Also some of the out there stuff like Jainism could be attractive to Uplifts and AGIs. Also I see weird amalgamations of Native American beliefs with shamanism and voodoo among Uplifts. Alot of those draw from animal spirits and entities that do not look human who simply possess forms. You might ask, why? People need structure, they like knowing there is something greater out there. Having a faith means that maybe you are part of a greater plan and have a soul and not just a creation of pure human hubris. Actually I could see 'spirit cults' and shamanism popping up on any actual planet/moon. Mars you could have all sorts of mystics and witch doctors dotting the Martian outback with locals going to them for advice/spirit healing/blessings. I could see Voodoo popping up in Scum swarms to one degree or another. Perhaps serious, perhaps as just part of the over all act. Snake handlers too. Why? Its a hell of a show. I could see scientology still kicking around, probably as a hypercorp and probably in middle of constant memetic wars. Religious Asyncs possess an intersting question. My money would be on an Eastern Faith/philosophy, or a strain of Gnosticism perhaps. Hell I could see Jedism surviving the Fall being picked up in some fashion. In regards to religion, the way I look at it is; when the demons (Titans) are sitting on your lawn are you going to say "There is no God, I'm all alone!" or are you going to be loading your plasma rifles and seekers and praying to God that you'll head shot all those baddies and your children who are huddled in the closest will live to see another day? You don't see religion in Star Trek because it a utopia for the most part, at least in the Federation where the stories are based in. You see religion to a degree in Star Wars (by way of hte Force and its Priest the Jedi). The Empire might be bad and all but at least galactic civilzation will continue to march on. With Battlestar Galactica and Eclipse Phase, I think you would see a fair bit of religion (regardless of ego backup and resleeving) because as good as your tech was, the Devil's tech is better and has not only eaten your house but is nibbling at your sneakers as you run away. They turn to religion because their old god (technology) can no longer help them/listens to them.

I believe I overstated with hyperbaly some of what I was trying to get across. I aplogize before hand, I use an ipad and for some reason I can't copy what you wrote. I differenciate 'skeptical atheism' as agnosticism verses atheism. Agnosticism allows for the possibility of a deity, atheism believes there is none. You are correct they will not for the most part to turn to 'radical religion' but they would have a tendency to turn to religion/faith during crisis and stress. They might be immortal atheists but what happens when their world is brought to the edge of destruction and tons of their fellow immortal atheists are either destroyed, head-hunted or turned into exsurgent monstrocities? In the wake of that you dealing with survivor guilt, ptsd and looking to understand what happened and why. Faith and religion offers comfort, its a fact, whether its a plusibo or there really is a god in the sky. Hey guess what, you live on Mars, at any moment the Titans could come boiling out of the White Zone and restart the killing. Its comforting to think there might be something bigger out there in your corner. Does that belief mean Shari Law? Could be saying prayers before going to bed? Popping into mass on Fall Day or buring a stick of insence at your shrine in ancestor worship. 'Religion' is a gambit of Easter/Xmas christrians to suidice budhist bombers (They exist in RL, i don't understand how).

So I know that we have some very smart people on these boards, and I can only assume that at least some of them are learned in sociology. Can anyone link me credibly sourced material that shows a sustained growth in religiosity after major crisis'? I can find papers that show momentary bumps in the religious feelings of sufferers, but none that show that those feelings are sustained for particularly long periods of time, at least throughout the population. I ask because every time I hear people say that Eclipse Phases' religious outlook isn't realistic due to peoples tendency to flee to faith after a crisis, they never source why that is true, and it is almost always backed by anecdotal evidence (or not at all, instead passed as simple fact). I am not particularly adverse to the thought that people may, temporarily, turn to faith as a coping mechanism. I am more adverse to accepting that that faith is anything other than temporary, an attempt at stymieing the building stress with community and an outward looking approach to life. I would be particularly interested in material that used a modern, largely irreligious society, such as one of those found in western Europe. Especially one that has well developed secular coping structures in place; well accepted mental health treatment, for example.

50K on kickstarter, YAY! Decivre, to get an idea of where I'm coming from when I say religion/faith goes with people to the stars and stays with them you might want to read "Sacred Matters" by Gary Laderman. Its a fairly quick read, as it's not a big book. I'd say try and find it at a library or used bookstore, 17 bucks on kindle is steep in my opinion. There's also a book I read a while back I think called "Asian Christian Spirituality"? A section involves the shamanization of Korean Christianity but that title is not hitting anything in Amazon. If there's anyone reading who knows what I'm talking about, please chime in. Codebreaker To my knowledge your right, there isn't study for that. Modern developed secular coping structures do work when three thousand people die or ten thousand die. We haven't seen them in place when a third of a continent dies in the span of 4 years. Or third of the world population dies and a continent is reduced to rubble in the span of a month with millions of displaced refugees flooding countries. The problem with the argument we're having is that we thankfully don't enough examples to prove our points. I'm in the 'pro-religion' camp I'll call it. I'm agnostic, I believe that based on past historical events that there is no reason religion would not have some level of resurgence beyond a temporary after a Fall event. By the way if I come across as being a dick, I don't mean to. This is one of those 'sit back and have a glass of scotch' discussions better had in personal, at least for me. Shit I forgot to mention Firefly! They had religion and preachers running around.

CodeBreaker wrote:

So I know that we have some very smart people on these boards, and I can only assume that at least some of them are learned in sociology. Can anyone link me credibly sourced material that shows a sustained growth in religiosity after major crisis'? I can find papers that show momentary bumps in the religious feelings of sufferers, but none that show that those feelings are sustained for particularly long periods of time, at least throughout the population. I ask because every time I hear people say that Eclipse Phases' religious outlook isn't realistic due to peoples tendency to flee to faith after a crisis, they never source why that is true, and it is almost always backed by anecdotal evidence (or not at all, instead passed as simple fact). I am not particularly adverse to the thought that people may, temporarily, turn to faith as a coping mechanism. I am more adverse to accepting that that faith is anything other than temporary, an attempt at stymieing the building stress with community and an outward looking approach to life. I would be particularly interested in material that used a modern, largely irreligious society, such as one of those found in western Europe. Especially one that has well developed secular coping structures in place; well accepted mental health treatment, for example.

Undergraduate Sociology student here; Although sociology of religion isn't my forte I'm not aware of any studies like what you describe. My understanding is that while you can link increased religiosity to [i]personal[/i] crisis such as illness or bereavement, there aren't any correlations with national crises like war etc. Generally what increases religiosity is aging (Getting closer to death) and poverty; the poorer a country is the more religious the populace is and that reduces as they become more affluent. As a GM I like including religious groups in Eclipse Phase since it gives me more to play with; I'm currently running a game featuring nomadic Sufi Muslim mystics who believe the Fall actually happened 1000 years ago, and I'm planning on running a game involving gatecrashing Mormon settlers. I just enjoy imagining how religions would look in a post-singularity setting.

Baalbamoth wrote:

I spent a little time trying to find actual stats and figures and couldent find any one block of stats. This article from 2007 has a lot about world wide shift towards fundamentalism. http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/the-spread-of-faith-religion... "The Islamic movements around the world and the "new Christian Right" in the United States are the most striking examples of the religion revival. And it is no coincidence that both have emerged and spread simultaneously during the last 30 years."

Actually, the Christian revival in the United States is nearly 200 years old now. The past 30 years is more about a shift towards political advocacy among Christian right groups, who previously were about non-activism (Christian fundamentalists, prior to Bob Jones University v. Simon, had a hands-off approach to politics and war). Plus, I disagree with the idea that all faith is shifting to fundamentalism. Some of the largest religious blocs might be, but the largest majority are not (there has not been a significant rise in Hindu fundamentalism, among other eastern faiths). Furthermore, religiosity tends to vary even within the ranks of a particular sect; the Catholic Church is completely against the use of contraceptives other than natural family planning, while 98% of Catholic women polled admit to using contraceptives other than NFP. That can only mean that the figureheads of the Catholic Church are far more conservative than its membership is.

Ilmarinen wrote:

I don't see Buddhism making it through the Fall very well. Transhumanism essentially denies the Four Noble Truths and then traps everyone in samsara, tempting them with worldly pleasures and denying them the opportunity to move on to true enlightenment.

Or, alternatively, it allows you to control the cycle of suffering so that you can use the opportunity to get closer to Nirvana within a "single" lifetime of memories. Faiths are pretty flexible things. If it isn't flexible, it's extinct.

"Matrixism", anyone heard of that? Much like this game, the Matrix universe is deeper than most know.

I'm curious, what aspects of the 4 Noble Truths does Transhumanism deny? As for reincarnation I don't believe Siddhartha ever said anything about it and my preferred belief (call it Headcanon) is that Buddha was an atheist.

As with any faith, there are a million different flavors of Buddhism. The Mahayana sects are especially influenced by Hinduism with its cycle of reincarnation. The actual teachings of Siddhartha (as far as I can find. Studying Buddhism on my own has been extremely difficult) don't seem to involve the supernatural much at all. One could choose to look at the soul ranks as an abstraction, however. In EP it's especially apropos with Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta forks, to say nothing of AGIs vs AIs. I'm saddened that we in the atheist community have allowed the superstitious to have uncontested ownership of ideas like "Faith" and "Religion". And personally I think the deep understanding of the mind that allows for psychosurgery, would make it possible to create a religion entirely devoid of superstition, but rather quite honestly lays down a set of guidelines for "how to be happy and let other people people happy". Buddhism is a good early try at this, a lot of superstitions got injected into it because human beings are silly. "Faith" on the other hand is just a romantic word for certainty, and the rejection of pre-rational thought shouldn't cause us to abandon the word entirely. I have faith in things for which I have evidence. I would even say that without evidence, you can't have faith, just hope. To get back to EP, I've been working on the Neo-Buddhist religion off and on for some time. I've actually made it a combination of psychotherapy, eastern meditation, eastern and western philosophy and the martial arts. I'm even working on "Sutras" that function mechanically like Psi Sleights which come from subjective years/decades/centuries of training. Meditation has already been shown with modern science to be effective, how much more effective would it be if you had a skilled psychosurgeon watching your Ego file in real-time helping to guide your meditation?

Erenthia wrote:

As with any faith, there are a million different flavors of Buddhism. The Mahayana sects are especially influenced by Hinduism with its cycle of reincarnation. The actual teachings of Siddhartha (as far as I can find. Studying Buddhism on my own has been extremely difficult) don't seem to involve the supernatural much at all. One could choose to look at the soul ranks as an abstraction, however. In EP it's especially apropos with Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta forks, to say nothing of AGIs vs AIs.

Actually, Theravada Buddhism (the oldest form, and likely the direct descendant of the original teachings) does have some supernatural views regarding meditation. Of course, considering that Mahayana Buddhism formed 600 years after Buddhism was originally conceived, I don't see why a completely non-supernatural sect couldn't exist... one that focuses on relieving one's suffering within this life, rather than doing so hoping for a good reincarnation. I could see such a Buddhist branch forming of that sort after biological immortality and resleeving is achieved.

Erenthia wrote:

I'm saddened that we in the atheist community have allowed the superstitious to have uncontested ownership of ideas like "Faith" and "Religion". And personally I think the deep understanding of the mind that allows for psychosurgery, would make it possible to create a religion entirely devoid of superstition, but rather quite honestly lays down a set of guidelines for "how to be happy and let other people people happy". Buddhism is a good early try at this, a lot of superstitions got injected into it because human beings are silly. "Faith" on the other hand is just a romantic word for certainty, and the rejection of pre-rational thought shouldn't cause us to abandon the word entirely. I have faith in things for which I have evidence. I would even say that without evidence, you can't have faith, just hope.

I think that the biggest loss that the atheist community suffers for trying to set itself apart from religion is that we lack the sense of community and unity that religion often brings into people's lives. Atheists still form communities, but they often lack the goal-oriented actions that churches often work towards in the course of following their superstitious views. Churches create homeless shelters and soup kitchens because their book teaches them to take care of the least of them, and that they must convert non-followers. Atheists don't have any faith-based goals, urge to convert, nor any sense of cultural unity. There was a very interesting TED talk where someone discusses these things regarding atheism. [url=https://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html]In it, Alain de Botton talks about how atheism needs to find a sense of culture and tradition, so that we can feel less like rebels and more like a community all to ourselves.[/url]

Erenthia wrote:

To get back to EP, I've been working on the Neo-Buddhist religion off and on for some time. I've actually made it a combination of psychotherapy, eastern meditation, eastern and western philosophy and the martial arts. I'm even working on "Sutras" that function mechanically like Psi Sleights which come from subjective years/decades/centuries of training. Meditation has already been shown with modern science to be effective, how much more effective would it be if you had a skilled psychosurgeon watching your Ego file in real-time helping to guide your meditation?

It would even be interesting, considering that there's a psi sleight that causes your character to go unconscious and restore stress. I wonder if Buddhist asyncs would consider it a "true form" of meditation.

Ilmarinen wrote:

Erenthia wrote:

I'm curious, what aspects of the 4 Noble Truths does Transhumanism deny?

Mostly the first one. It's sort of centered around things like diseases, poverty, and old age.

Well the first Nobel truth is about the existence of suffering. Disease, old age, and (in some places) poverty may be largely gone, but this [i]is[/i] a horror setting we're talking about. Suffering is far from gone.

Decivre wrote:

Actually, Theravada Buddhism (the oldest form, and likely the direct descendant of the original teachings) does have some supernatural views regarding meditation. Of course, considering that Mahayana Buddhism formed 600 years after Buddhism was originally conceived, I don't see why a completely non-supernatural sect couldn't exist... one that focuses on relieving one's suffering within this life, rather than doing so hoping for a good reincarnation. I could see such a Buddhist branch forming of that sort after biological immortality and resleeving is achieved.

I actually didn't know that, though I'm tempted to excuse beliefs in a supernatural component to meditation in the same way that we often excuse attributing a supernatural source to lightning. At the very least the object of their superstition was a real phenomena.

Decivre wrote:

I think that the biggest loss that the atheist community suffers for trying to set itself apart from religion is that we lack the sense of community and unity that religion often brings into people's lives. Atheists still form communities, but they often lack the goal-oriented actions that churches often work towards in the course of following their superstitious views. Churches create homeless shelters and soup kitchens because their book teaches them to take care of the least of them, and that they must convert non-followers. Atheists don't have any faith-based goals, urge to convert, nor any sense of cultural unity. There was a very interesting TED talk where someone discusses these things regarding atheism. [url=https://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html]In it, Alain de Botton talks about how atheism needs to find a sense of culture and tradition, so that we can feel less like rebels and more like a community all to ourselves.[/url]

I've seen that one but I'd forgotten about it. How appropriate that I watch it again (especially when he talks about the value of repetition). The fact is, we [i]can[/i] provide meaning and community and even awe - but we don't even try because we're so dead set on not being a religion and denying that we have these needs because we're afraid of giving theists ammunition. The current strategy just isn't working and its time we faced up to that.

Decivre wrote:

It would even be interesting, considering that there's a psi sleight that causes your character to go unconscious and restore stress. I wonder if Buddhist asyncs would consider it a "true form" of meditation.

Ah yes, Downtime. I'm considering stealing that one wholesale and giving it to the NeoBuddhists. And while I haven't playtested any of this, I'm looking at having Sutras (basically just traits) for "Armor" vs SV, bonuses to Integration and Alienation (No Self) and ([i]maybe[/i]) the ability to inflict SV through speech (though that's kind of a nasty one). The martial art forms basically allow normally unrelated skills to become complementary skills. (Such as Kinesics giving a bonus to Fray in melee or Intimidation giving a bonus to Unarmed). This is all untested and pre-Alpha, but I felt like sharing it.

Ilmarinen wrote:

Mostly the first one. It's sort of centered around things like diseases, poverty, and old age.

Transhumanism doesn't directly address poverty, as nanofabrication isn't exactly a transhumanist concept... it's a post-scarcity concept. Also, you are forgetting anxiety, regret, dissatisfaction, and other major things that are part of the truth of dukkha. Transhumanism won't cure these things directly. Those will still take work. That said, transhumanism, if anything, doesn't deny the first noble truth. It addresses it on a physical and genetic level to as much of a degree as possible, and provides a transhuman alternative to the third and fourth noble truth... a transhuman means of ceasing dukkha.

Erenthia wrote:

Mostly the first one. It's sort of centered around things like diseases, poverty, and old age.

Well the first Nobel truth is about the existence of suffering. Disease, old age, and (in some places) poverty may be largely gone, but this [i]is[/i] a horror setting we're talking about. Suffering is far from gone.

Erenthia wrote:

I actually didn't know that, though I'm tempted to excuse beliefs in a supernatural component to meditation in the same way that we often excuse attributing a supernatural source to lightning. At the very least the object of their superstition was a real phenomena.

Perhaps. But beyond that, reincarnation itself is a supernatural belief. And it's a pretty important aspect of Buddhism.

Erenthia wrote:

I've seen that one but I'd forgotten about it. How appropriate that I watch it again (especially when he talks about the value of repetition). The fact is, we [i]can[/i] provide meaning and community and even awe - but we don't even try because we're so dead set on not being a religion and denying that we have these needs because we're afraid of giving theists ammunition. The current strategy just isn't working and its time we faced up to that.

Ironically, I wish that atheists would form some sort of religion, if only so that we could reap the benefits. Tax exemption for our organization, the ability to become a significant lobbying group, the force of influence necessary to actually use the 1st amendment to our advantage.... If all that means forming some sort of atheist religion, as a unified organization, then it would be worth it.

Erenthia wrote:

Ah yes, Downtime. I'm considering stealing that one wholesale and giving it to the NeoBuddhists. And while I haven't playtested any of this, I'm looking at having Sutras (basically just traits) for "Armor" vs SV, bonuses to Integration and Alienation (No Self) and ([i]maybe[/i]) the ability to inflict SV through speech (though that's kind of a nasty one). The martial art forms basically allow normally unrelated skills to become complementary skills. (Such as Kinesics giving a bonus to Fray in melee or Intimidation giving a bonus to Unarmed). This is all untested and pre-Alpha, but I felt like sharing it.

That could be interesting, but you might want to watch out. You don't want Neo-Buddhism so powerful that it gives pretty much everyone incentive to make all their characters exclusively Neo-Buddhists. I might recommend separating the martial arts from the faith, making it something anyone can take up, but Neo-Buddhists have a tendency to always have access to it. In fact, you can make Neo-Buddhist a character background, which could grant a martial arts skill as one of its bonuses. But still allow martial arts to be taken by anyone.

Baalbamoth wrote:

but I'll put the target on myself, hell no I dont believe athiests need to provide more services to the needy as church groups do. After working as a counselor and therapist for 8 years I developed a strong social darwinist/objectivest bent. Providing for the sick and the poor only creates more sick and poor. I really dont believe humanity is too far removed from apes, and base instincts. were just better at finding infrance and reasons to justify our actions.

I happen to be a third way advocate. The problem isn't helping the sick and poor, it's the way we do it. We have this tendency to believe that there are only two options: throwing money at the problem (as can be seen with all of the wonderful welfare programs in the United States), or completely ignoring it. The best option is often neither of these things.

Baalbamoth wrote:

We will never end suffering because we lack both the morality and immorality to either save or destroy those in need. Instead we just go on watching birth rates sky rocket, jobs disappear, and resources dissolve while we stuff our faces with cheap greasy food, play xbox, and tool around on forums. No, theres not much nobility of mankind in my world view. Better to burn all bridges and rush to AI hoping they will save us from our poor decision making, than in our vanity expect some ancient deity to hit us with the rapture before we choke and starve to death in cities filled with garbage and filth.

I tend to have a more optimistic view of things. Society has actually improved over the years, even if our self-destructive tendencies have kept us on the edge of the knife the entire way. We eventually solve our problems, but we often bring up new dilemmas in our wake. But technological advancement is increasing, and I am under the belief that it will soon out-pace our issues. So chin up, boss!

Baalbamoth wrote:

As to the possiblity of a religon using "psychosurgery, would make it possible to create a religion entirely devoid of superstition, but rather quite honestly lays down a set of guidelines for how to be happy and let other people people happy" well, I guess its possible assuming you achieve the elimination of desire but then you've got that issue of your converted just sitting in the corner and wasting away. we derive joy through the satiation of desire both emotional and physical, take that away and replace it with boundless contentment and theres really no reason to do anything, any deviation from that and your back into choosing what desires you want people to have aka souless fleshbots without free will.

Someone already came damn close to creating a superstition-less faith. His name was Thomas Paine, and it was called Deism. It had no churches or structure, but it came damn close to these things. It got largely snuffed out when the Second Great Awakening happened, but they showed us that it could happen. Us Naturalists just have to unify our voices and make things happen. I think there's more of us than society makes us believe. Honestly, I think the first real step has to be dropping the label "atheist".

Erenthia wrote:

The fact is, we [i]can[/i] provide meaning and community and even awe - but we don't even try because we're so dead set on not being a religion and denying that we have these needs because we're afraid of giving theists ammunition. The current strategy just isn't working and its time we faced up to that.

Atheism is FAR better at deconverting religious people than religions are at converting people from other religions. And really, just because we have irrational needs for certainty and comfort, the solution certainly isn't to offer irrational, religious-like solutions. People who have such flawed thinking that they can't face reality can stay in their cult, and I'm not going to adapt to accomodate them. I would suggest that you stop being apologetic towards religious needs. You're giving people the impression that atheism doesn't offer "the whole package" and that's somehow bad. Well, a healthy life style doesn't have 4,000 daily kcals of fast food either. People who truly have a need for fast food, spiritually or physically, are just not ready to change yet. They need motivation and not just a lower bar.

Ooo, this one could get good! [i][b]gets the popcorn[/i][/b]

Baalbamoth wrote:

Humans are genetically wired towards ritualistic behavior and religious thoughts. Atheists are the anomaly. Its not just a matter of rational debate and wise decision making. Why do all fluke worms turn towards light? Its a genetically predetermined behavior, the same reason ALL humans consider the possibility of god, and most choose to believe in one or if completely isolated will invent one.

Just because you live in a largely uneducated society with strong social pressures to believe, you shouldn't assume things couldn't be different. In Denmark, the largest "religious group" is atheists (iirc we're 48% atheist with christians the runner up at 43%). In the US where the general population is religious, at the highest education levels atheism is at 92%. I agree that many are genetically pre-disposed to believe, but it seems to also require peer pressure and lack of education.

As an outsider looking in, I absolutely agree. Christian is someone who follows Christ, Buddhist is someone who follows Buddha, Atheist is someone who believes there is no god. Two out of three of those words are built around a particular message. The third is built around the *lack* of a message. There's no inherit philosophy around that; no point that brings community together. It's like a club of people who hate the color red. What do you talk about there? How much you hate red only works for so long. Skeptics work, although normally it's about a particular field you're skeptical about. More frequently, I've heard the term Humanist, which I think is a very nice one. Rather than saying 'we are bound by our common belief that we don't believe in god', it's saying 'we believe in helping mankind now, in the current world, through work, science, and compassion'. That's something you can bind people together with. Of course, not all atheists are humanists, and not all humanists are atheists, so it's not a perfect fit.

Baalbamoth wrote:

Decivre- I dunno, naturalism sounds like ecopsycos and crazy cat lady cat worshipers, and I think the terminology gets funky at the quantum level, as we do find some particles that a) do effect our natural world and b) do not entirely exist in our natural world. (making them ahem... partially un-natural or supernatural) then theres the whole problem of various documented cases of emergent phenomena (like tornados appearing where tornados are naturally impossible because the weather patterns there cannot create or support them, etc. ) I simply toss these into the "we dont understand cause our science aint up to the task yet" explanation rather than god is hiding in the gaps explanation (you know, the one Hawking and Einstien both signed on to..)

First off, most models involving interaction with particles outside our universe actually involve multiple universes... and those universes are, in turn, natural. So even when you start delving into things outside our universe, that doesn't mean you are delving outside the natural at all. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_naturalism]Naturalism is a concept that doesn't really have anything to do with tree-huggery at all.[/url] It really only deals with the natural/supernatural dichotomy, and does so by simply stating that all things which exist are part and parcel to nature... and therefore all things are natural, and the term "supernatural" is worthless. Now while there are many deviations from this simple version of it (metaphysical naturalism, which generally deals with debunking religious claims; and methodological naturalism, which is effectively the scientific method), but it all comes down to the idea that "natural" and "supernatural" as they are used to contrast one another is a loaded concept that is... to put it [i]extremely[/i] mildly, full of malarkey. As for emergent phenomena, it's best to assume that it seems impossible merely due to our lack of information, not because it actually is impossible. Furthermore, my basic understanding of quantum mechanics stipulates that nothing is actually impossible, and allegedly impossible things pop in and out of existence all the time. I'm sure someone else around here can do a better job at discussing that, though. I'm extremely un-versed in all things quantum physics, perhaps outside of where it concerns computing.

Speaking again about entities such as my postulated 'Society of Mary Shelly' (yes, it's named after the writer of the original novel 'Frankenstein'): I think this is the natural course of institutional religions in such a setting. Even now, at least from my anarchistic perspective, institutional religions already involve various levels of brainwashing, apart from the fact that there are very specific conditions to be met for an entity to be classified as a cult. With the reprogramming _instituted_ by _institutional_ religions, we find ourselves separated, more than likely, from the philosophical and spiritual values promoted by the original proponents of a particular philosophy and find the believers/adherents being controlled rather than elevated. I don't see why that would change in the transhuman setting. However, like the anarchists of the Love and Rage collective and others see in the post-scarcity economy for the elimination of poverty and want, I see the opportunity for spirituality to be more individualistic and powerful than it has ever been: the liberation of the ego from the flesh is a possibility; or, finally, the manipulation of the flesh to the taste and comfort of the ego is also possible to a degree we can't presently achieve (note the struggle of transgender people in our day). Transhuman spirituality _SHOULD_ transcend the concept of RELIGION; I hope that any ruleset depicting this aspect of the EP world makes this delineation and depicts both truly individualistic spiritualities (possibly based on Native American or other Paganic beliefs) or community-oriented but contemplative beliefs (such as Bhuddist or even Ba'hai beliefs) and _institutional religions_ or out-and-out _cults_. EP would be a perfect vehicle to treat such a discussion.

jhfurnish wrote:

Baalbamoth wrote:

may I present Nova York... Like its historic namesake, Nova York is a melting pot for cultural trends—and also religious ones. Unlike Extropia, which certainly is open to many new things but tends to be a bit more hostile towards religious memeplexes, Nova York is a place where ideas are allowed to flourish, and both old and new religions are embraced. More and more, Nova Yorkers seek knowledge, philosophical, and cultural enlightenment as their economy continues to shape the habitat into an egalitarian society. Religious figures from faiths presumed dead, or at least on the decline, are able to find new believers here....

I'm presently running a campaign that involves Nova York as a place where you can find a seriously sinister cult or two. There are indeed potholes and bumps on the road to enlightenment. It's actually a hard thing to find. In real life alone, I've encountered not a few of them. Imagine the melting pot presented in Nova York via EP. I think there should be a separate section for cults and more sinister philosophies in any book/chapter detailing transhumanist religions. Religions so easily devolve into cults. Agh! Let me present my idea, while I'm at it: The Society of Mary Shelly. This society was created by a deranged psychosurgeon who became twisted after surviving an aborted upload by a TITAN. (Well, that's my story.) They're based on Nine Lives and deal in hacking up egos and rebuilding them to taste or to order, in the case of customers. They even do it to themselves and each other, the way people might get into bionic parts and surgical addiction. They draw people into their web by using 'meditation clinics' in places like Nova York... and the predation begins.

This is a very awesome concept. I can see this turning into a good series for a new gaming group or the like. Thanks for this!

Baalbamoth wrote:

thats been the goal of all societies since we climbed out of the trees, there will always be suffering and ignornace, and selfesh greed that stops us from really doing anything about it and calling those who do fools. Remember the scene in T-2 where the kids are playing cowboys and indians and john says to arnie something like, "thats us, we cant really save ourselves can we?" and the terminator says "self destruction is in your nature" I tend to agree... again save the money you'd waste on social welfare programs, it will only create more dependance, instead invest it in high tech firms doing AI research and pray our technology can outpace our self destructive natures, its really the only way I see that we can be saved... something smarter and more powerful than ourselves saying "stop" If god does not exist... we'll have to invent him.

I'm torn. On one hand I agree on the fundamentals... it is within human nature to look after number one, and most human activity tends toward this instinctive drive. However, we have had the ability, throughout human history, to set aside this basic urge for the common good. Democracy, social programs, and many other human achievements have run contradictory to our self-promoting urges. Furthermore, we have found that seemingly benevolent acts can have long term self-interest benefits as well. I think that's the core dilemma that holds society back; we need to get people to stop thinking about the short term, and educate them about long-term goals and purposes. If people would just think 20 years into the future, rather than 3 or 4, they might see the benefits in short term loss. Corporations might not measure success in quarters and years if they planned for the motherload in two decades.