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Medichines, Bioware, and Breaking Things

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Shunka Shunka's picture
Medichines, Bioware, and Breaking Things
First, hi all! Second, I am puzzled by some of the divisions of technology in Eclipse Phase because I see them as not merely blurring together but being a spectrum where A ranges into B quite easily. I want to discuss some ideas about bioware, medichines and nanomachines. It seems to me that one of the most common tricks in EP is to hack a fabber or maker and use it to make toys the adults don't want you to play with. I don't think I've been in a campaign where this hasn't happened. The character with hacking and a bunch of handy blueprints can be very effective, because she doesn't need to worry about losing her morph or her equipment. I believe this can be taken a step further, please have a look at this chain of reasoning and see where it breaks (if it does) or add links to it. 1. Medichines are "the most common form of nanoware". They are nanobots inside the body which are capable of repairing extremely severe damage (four wounds at once doesn't phase them?!) to their host, or putting their host in stasis. 2. In order to repair damage, medichines must be capable of shuffling cells around, building cellular structures (flesh and bone) and reconstructing complex organs. They must also be capable of taking ingested proteins and materials and either turning them into more cells/tissue or taking those nutrients from the bloodstream (which would suggest that if nanomachines are regrowing missing chunks of your body you're going to want to eat something fast). 3. In order for them to be constantly available in the user's bloodstream, they almost certainly must come from an implanted hive. 4. One can turn them on and off voluntarily, so one's PAN is in communication with them. 5. They can be reprogrammed, and can even adapt to changing circumstances (people grow, muscle develops or diminishes, etc., not to mention new bioware might be installed). 6. "Bioware augmentations can be acquired either as a genemod when the morph is designed and grown or as a later modification to an existing morph, either by using nanomachines to modify the morph’s tissue or by externally growing the organ and implanting it." (p.301, core) 7. A character can have blueprints for bioware. 8. I don't see why medichines cannot have their 'body template' of the user adjusted/reprogrammed to include a bioware blueprint, and immediately all say 'Oh no, user needs healing.' and begin constructing those bioware implants [i]in situ[/i]. (Don't blow your programming roll!) This means that where bioware is concerned, a character created with medichines and bioware blueprints could modify themselves on-station, using the same rules as far as time-to-create which are used for nanofabrication (i.e., since most bioware is 'low' cost it will only be a few hours). 9. For bonus points, if you can hack someone's PAN, you could theoretically reprogram their medichines with a non-functional (i.e., this kills the man...Say, tell them to treat hemoglobin as a toxin) 'body template'. This would force the target to turn off its medichines, at least temporarily, until it could 'reset' them. I also have a few questions about why certain implants are not available as bioware. Bioware Anti-Glare? Fast-reflex nictitating membranes combined with a temporary (fractions of a second) combined with localized neurachem-style synaptic and muscular speed enhancers to close the iris down to nearly nothing ASAP, thus protecting the rods and cones in the retina. Bioware Oxygen Reserve? Rebuild one lung so it has two chambers, separated by a consciously controlled valving system that can be used to increase pressure in the lower chamber via a pumping mechanism, the other chamber contains a dense 'sponge' of symbiotic moss which absorbs nutrients from the bloodstream and acts as a CO2/oxygen converter. One of the things your medichines do when they aren't actively repairing you is occasionally trim the foliage, break it down into simple sugars and stuff them back into your bloodstream for redistribution. Bioware Hardened Skeleton? Modify some osteoplasts to grow longitudinal strands of [url="http://news.discovery.com/tech/print-body-armor.htm"]this stuff[/url] along bone structure, or perhaps something more like [url="http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1314350/squid_beaks_one_of_the_hard..."]this[/url]. Bioware Electrical Sense? Install lateral lines with extremely dense sensory nerve clusters for fine granularity of sensation. Cyberclaws? Same material as for Hardened Skeleton, roughly a similar biological template as that used for bioware claws, but attach them along the backs of the metacarpals so they switchlade out and forward, perhaps with a trigger akin to that of [url="http://notexactlyrocketscience.wordpress.com/2006/08/28/mantis-shrimps-t... mantis shrimp"[/url]. There's a half-dozen different biological ways to turn your kitty-claws into a wasp-knife that I can think of...Toxin delivery system plus gas-generating glands or some such. And (given a few hours) you could reprogram your toxin sacs or drug glands to produce different chemicals. Particularly your toxin sacs since they already obviously must have some system for keeping you from poisoning yourself with whatever is in them. Congratulations, you are now your own bio-polymer factory, at least for small quantities. Or your smart-pet is, once you give it medichines and hack them. You could even grow other bioware 'organs' in a skin pocket in your spare time. Increase your daily caloric intake, wait until those enhanced eyeballs are done, open up the pouch and very gently clip them free and dump them into a container that has medichines to keep them in medical stasis. Put an advertisement on the local mesh. Profit. Thoughts? If you were a GM would you consider this overpowered (I.E., the idea that a character with medichines can have their own built-in bioware fabber?).
Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
your not the only one...
I been running into this a lot lately, you can make a swarmorph but you cant give them neurotoxin injectors, you also cant make a swarmorph out of anything larger than a tiny insect... if the technology exists to link one mind to thousands of tiny robo-insects why on earth couldent you do the same thing with something larger say like Creepys or even an army of clankers? what it comes down to I guess is game balance. we could do it but then why would anybody do anything else? wheres the adventure and the fun?
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
nick012000 nick012000's picture
I assume the reason you can't
I assume the reason you can't do this in-game is because the TITANs did it during the fall to turn people with insecure medichines into Exsurgent monsters, and Firewall came up with security measures to prevent it from happening in the future. Most likely, the medichines scout out your body to build up the blueprint, and they aren't capable of receiving external blueprints; they simply note the changes produced by medical vats when you hop into one for an upgrade and update their blueprints accordingly.

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I think you are over
I think you are over estimating what the tech in Eclipse Phase can do. Currently, bioware can be made as cyberware, but cyberware can't be made into bioware. As such, you can't (yet) get bioware oxygen reserve, bioware electrical sense, bioware mesh inserts, or bioware cyberbrains. In many cases, it seems as though cyberware and synthmorphs are superior to bioware and biomorphs... its just that so many people have social stigma against using them. Also, healing vats are much more powerful than medichines. Medichines can heal 1 wound every 12 hours, while a healing vat can do the same (on a mostly intact morph) but 1 wound every 2 hours. Likewise, medichines can put you into a medical stasis, but it can't safely remove you from that state. I think it is a mistake to think that medichines can do the same things as a healing vats (at least with the same ease). I don't think that medichines can add new augmentations to your body. Too complex of a job I think. I think that medichines are good at improving how the body works and fixing specific problems, but not changing it drastically. Now using medichines to actively kill or destroy an augmentation that would normally regenerate I think is possible. Pick a biomorph, genetically add augmentations you want to smuggle in (in such a way that it could regenerate late), use medichines to actively kill the organ and tissue, once no detectable trace of the augmentation is found you pass through security who (hopefully) doesn't find the augmentations you want to hide, and then you cancel your order to your medichines and let you body regenerate the organs (with medichine help). ---- I won't rule out being able to genehack your morph to add *new* augmentations, but if allowed, I think it should be rolled every time with at least a -30 penalty. It would be a complex task to make sure all augmentations work together right. I don't think that bioware has the same plug and play capabilities that cyberware might have.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I think I'll comment on your
I think I'll comment on your other questions while I thinking about it.
Shunka wrote:
1. Medichines are "the most common form of nanoware". They are nanobots inside the body which are capable of repairing extremely severe damage (four wounds at once doesn't phase them?!) to their host, or putting their host in stasis.
I believe its one wound at a time. As such, it would take about 48 hours (2 days) to heal 4 wounds (1 wound per every 12 hours), not 12 hours to heal all 4 at once.
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2. In order to repair damage, medichines must be capable of shuffling cells around, building cellular structures (flesh and bone) and reconstructing complex organs. They must also be capable of taking ingested proteins and materials and either turning them into more cells/tissue or taking those nutrients from the bloodstream (which would suggest that if nanomachines are regrowing missing chunks of your body you're going to want to eat something fast).
I believe that is a correct assessment. I also think that medichines should be able to use the same materials to build more medichines as the individual nanobots do wear out over time and will need replacing.
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3. In order for them to be constantly available in the user's bloodstream, they almost certainly must come from an implanted hive.
Yes.
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4. One can turn them on and off voluntarily, so one's PAN is in communication with them.
I need to read up on PAN again. I think that the implanted nanohive controls the medichines, and the nanohive is physically connected to one's mesh inserts which controls it, so I don't think it is possible to control them remotely without going through the mesh inserts. I don't think anyone can simply walk by you, hack your medichines, and do so without going through your mesh inserts.
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5. They can be reprogrammed, and can even adapt to changing circumstances (people grow, muscle develops or diminishes, etc., not to mention new bioware might be installed).
Sorta. I imagine that there is a crowd out who plays with what medichines might be able to do. They might try to make macros to reduce body fate and increase muscle mass for instance. I don't think that attempting to add new augmentations would be (very) successful, or would be a very time consuming procedure. Healing and natural growth should be things that medichines are prepared to handle.
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6. "Bioware augmentations can be acquired either as a genemod when the morph is designed and grown or as a later modification to an existing morph, either by using nanomachines to modify the morph’s tissue or by externally growing the organ and implanting it." (p.301, core)
I think what they meant to say was, healing vats are very impressive piece of technology, so impressive it is practically magic. There is no mention in the medichine nanoware that it can add new augmentations, but healing vats do mention that they use (specialized) medichines in their work. I think that means that medichines are used with adding bioware augmentations, but not all medichine systems are capable of adding augmentations. Its like assuming that scalpels are used in surgery, so all scalpels (without a doctor to use them) can do surgery. The reality is that doctors do surgery, scalpels are merely a convenient tool.
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7. A character can have blueprints for bioware.
I believe so, but it is not likely set up and prepared for use on just any morph. You likely need to do a genehacking check to make sure everything works together right, and avoid any unpleasant mutations. Most likely, a blueprint is developed with considerations of a select few types of morphs, and a select bunch of augmentations. Trying to stick to tested combinations might not need a genehacking check, or might offer a +30 mod to such checks.
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8. I don't see why medichines cannot have their 'body template' of the user adjusted/reprogrammed to include a bioware blueprint, and immediately all say 'Oh no, user needs healing.' and begin constructing those bioware implants in situ. (Don't blow your programming roll!) This means that where bioware is concerned, a character created with medichines and bioware blueprints could modify themselves on-station, using the same rules as far as time-to-create which are used for nanofabrication (i.e., since most bioware is 'low' cost it will only be a few hours).
If you allow this, use the time table for healing vats, multiplied by 6 at the very minimum. Healing vats are more powerful and faster than medichines, and any attempt to duplicate healing vat result with medichines should reflect that. Do that, or you'll get some crazy results.
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9. For bonus points, if you can hack someone's PAN, you could theoretically reprogram their medichines with a non-functional (i.e., this kills the man...Say, tell them to treat hemoglobin as a toxin) 'body template'. This would force the target to turn off its medichines, at least temporarily, until it could 'reset' them.
As I've stated before, I think you would have to go through someone's mesh inserts. The user can keep their mesh inserts off or radio silient. Even if you were successful in hacking, I've stated that medichines should not act as quickly as healing vats, so you would have more time to figure out that something was wrong, or to notice the hacking attempt. Except a TITAN hacking attempt. TITAN technology is nasty stuff, and might be able to work far quicker than someone else doing it.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
I don't think that medichines
I don't think that medichines would be connected to the user's PAN, or anything at all, for that matter. It's stupid; they don't need it, and it's a security weakness that the TITANs could and would have exploited for horrific effect.

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Decivre Decivre's picture
nick012000 wrote:I don't
nick012000 wrote:
I don't think that medichines would be connected to the user's PAN, or anything at all, for that matter. It's stupid; they don't need it, and it's a security weakness that the TITANs could and would have exploited for horrific effect.
Oftentimes, security and convenience clash in cumbersome ways, and people have to decide which they would rather have more of. In this case, there are some very interesting advantages that PAN-linked medichines would provide... the ability to upload blueprints and have the medichines nanofacture an implant in your body without the need for a surgeons table, the ability to reconfigure the body in interesting ways (medichines could make the sex switch implant completely obsolete), and more. For a modern example of this, look at bluetooth. One of the worst security holes in modern computer systems, bluetooth is essentially unencrypted short-range data throughput. Yet, we haven't gotten rid of it despite the risks.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Baalbamoth Baalbamoth's picture
if not the PAN what?
they have to be communicating in some way, if your arm just got tore off and at the same time your liver was tore out, you need some removing toxins from the blood, some fixing the arm, some sinking you into stasis or helping with pain by deadening nerves.. the only other way I could see that working is if they had some kind of contact communication, which would be slow and chaotic.
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."