Hi,
I understand this is my first post here, so please take the following as being from and experienced player and GM. I have been playing and running Eclipse Phase for quite a while, playing several long games and running a long campaign.
In playing we have found a number of issues with some of the design in the game. While I do not mean this as a criticism as such, more my thoughts on the current system. I know some of these matters have been discussed before but I thought I would put everything here
[h1]Skills and Stats[/h1]
I have always found the question of how skills and stats relate to be awkward. A person in a basic morph with a EGO of 10 and another person in a morph at the bleeding edge with EGO 40 can both have an identical skill level, lets say they both max out to 99.
There is no game mechanical meaning to having an EGO of 40 to an EGO of 10 aside from the cost of purchasing the skill. This would imply using a modern day equivallent that a low IQ person with say and IQ 60 can be just as an effective scientist as a person with IQ 160.
Now I do understand the idea that even an EGO 10 is brilliant by todays standards but still there should be a quantitative difference. My general thought are to
a) limit the maximum skill level based on EGO
b) allow higher EGO people to reseach faster and with better results, not just based on a dice roll
c) maybe limit degrees of success, irreguardless of the dice roll, based on the stat.
When you move to other stats it gets worse for me, with the physical stats it is odd. A person with SOM 40 should be superhumanly strong compared to a flat. The above ideas apply for ther other stats (well not really b)
[h1]Skill Softs[/h1]
A major issue is the limitations of skill softs in the game, a max bonus of 40 and 120 points in total.
It is argued that this is the difficulty to program a high skill and separate personality.
The 120 limit is odd as you can have a ghostrider module implanted that can run a full ego and ALL their skills.
My issue here is why? It is possible to develop full AI's with any skills including muses and full player characters. So this means transhumanity understands skills and building EGOs.
Now I also understand here there is an implied technological limit, after all you torturer a captured backup/ego, you do not decompile it and extract all of it's data. But part of this is the ego encryption and firewall mentioned for ego bridges.
Personally I immediately introduced a new breakthrough in my game increasing the limit for skill softs. Actually I regularly introduced changes to technology in the game, as the setting is not a stable time, technologies are transforming and advancing. A good hook I used for a game was the development of a new exploit and the window of opportunity until systems were upgraded (and the exploit became public)
I suggest up the max bonus to 80 and limit higher or remove the limit all together. This greatly affects the world but given the technologies discissued it should!
[h1]Morphs[/h1]
I have two main issues for morphs
1) why does it take so long to grow a new morph. Can't you just make one using a cornucopia machine? A cornucopia machine can make delicate electronics so should be able to grow a body, either bio or synth quite quickly. A bio may be technically dead, but is could be revived as such. A synth would just be charged and turned on.
2) more a minor issue that at time it seems a bio morph and synth morph are too equivallent. Both can get the same max stats, so a machine cannot be stronger than a biological organism?
[h1]Gear[/h1]
It seems some gear pricing and size/capabilities are odd and need review.
Costs in the game are based on rare materials required to make and time to construct. A profit margin would be added even in rep based economies. Still some prices seem arbitrarily high, I trust this was not just a game balance issue but based on some decisicion by the designers.
For instance nanoswarms vary from low to high in cost. To make a swarm means running a cornucoia machine for a while. No excotic or rare resources like metals etc are needed. In some economies prices may be legislated high to precvent ownership but this would not apply in an anarchistic economy.
In the gatecrashing book the Neutrino Retreat is a 1 meter cube weighting 400Kg. It has a battery, data storage and a communicator, all of which can be implanted in a morph (for instance nuclear batteries, ghostrider modules etc)
I can give a lot more examples here, but I did not want to sound anal or something, so if desired I can post more examples.
In general though I do not have many issues with gear I would just appreciate a review in light of the publiched technologies and please do not consider game balance. For balance, remember everyone can own them, your enemies too.
[h1]Background[/h1]
While I appreciate the game is giving a framework for GM's but and does not state motivations for the ETI I would prefer more of the big picture to be fleshed in. I am perfectly happy to make it up myself, but some more meta-story is good. I can ignore it if I want or use the neat story of the developers.
After all the story as basically shown is a total loss situation for transhumanity. The ETI is much older, advanced, and with huge resources. It is hard to imagine how transhumanity can survive a direct meeting, but why hasn't it happened?
[h1]EGO Hacking[/h1]
The rules for ego hacking is neat but seems to be incomplete or at least you should be able to do so much more!
Sorry nothing specific here but I have seen some neat third party ideas, I would appreciate more to be fleshed into the game.
[h1]Conculsion[/h1]
Please do not get the idea here I am just criticising everything. I very much enjoy playing and running Eclipse Phase, I would just like it to be improved.
Please note, I have been a little unwell recently, so I may not be able to reply to any queries for a day or two. My apologies.
Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.
New Edition - My Thoughts on the current release and ideas to improve
Tue, 2013-04-30 04:33
#1
New Edition - My Thoughts on the current release and ideas to improve
Wed, 2013-05-01 06:33
#2
I pretty much agree with you
I pretty much agree with you cmacleod, a few others here do as well, but I think you only option atm is to handle this situation is with house rules, as far as I know the writers of the game have not commented on their design choices for this topic. But I would vastly prefer some sort of guidance from the game designers on how best to solve the issue you raise cmacleod.
I will add for the new rules coming out, the swarmamoid rules stating ego and mental stats are not enhanced in mega-swarms due to Lag in the swarm strikes me as odd given the computer power if a whole megaswarm is in close proximity I dont see how there could be any lag or say if the megaswarm actually forms a mass that is in physical contact.
Wed, 2013-05-01 07:59
#3
With the launch of the
With the launch of the kickstarter this is a good time address these issues.
Wed, 2013-05-01 12:57
#4
re: New Edition - My Thoughts on the current release and....
I agree somewhat. However, some aptitudes are more than the sum of the skills they are attached to. SOM also affects melee damage (and in games I run, affects hauling strength and carrying weight), REF affects initiative, and WIL affects your mental capacity for stress. These are included outside the skill system, so that no matter how high your skills associated with said aptitude might be, it will never improve these aspects. So there is some merit to maintain it this way.
Another aspect I am reminded of because of one of my old players is the ability to represent characters that might have savant-like talents in a narrow skill or skillset, while having no actual broader aptitude for it. One of my players portrayed an AGI who was not very cognitively intelligent, but had an effectively instinctive talent for hacking and computer manipulation. This sort of character would not be possible in a game system which tied skill caps directly to your aptitude values.
Well, transhumanity understands building egos and skills to an extent. But note that AGI are not programmed with skills like AI are... they are taught like normal transhumans. Only narrow AI are programmed with skills, and they are capped at 40. So there is already precedent to the idea that we don't understand skill creation much... yet.
But I agree that the cap is very limiting. At a couple of the games I've run, we raised the AI/skillsoft cap to 60, because 40 just doesn't give you many successes (without something to grant bonuses). It would be nice if there was some sort of experimental skillsoft with higher capacity than normal skillsoft.
Only biomorphs take a long time to produce, and can't be done with nanofabrication. CMs can produce synthmorphs just fine. That said, nothing in the books denotes that technology is capable of reviving dead tissue. A biomorph with medichines can be revived and regenerated from a mere head, but note that the medichines actually [i]keep the head alive[/i] (and there is a time limit to how long they can do so).
So in reality, the only morph scarcity that exists in the setting is with regards to biomorphs. But when a large amount of the population refuses outright to use synthetic bodies (biochauvinism is pretty rampant among more conservative minds, especially in the inner system), morph availability will be an issue.
Actually, I don't think that the costs are all that arbitrary (though morphs tend to be valued based on rarity and point cost). Value has a lot to do with demand, availability, resources required, and the actual inherent necessity that society applies to said product... even in a post-scarcity environment. Ectos, being built using graphene-based circuitry and whatnot, probably use far cheaper materials overall than a can of soda... but the ecto holds more value for what it can do in comparison to what that soda does, so it costs more in regards to favor/monetary price.
On a secondary note, the game also draws a direct correlation between cost of an item, and the time required to manufacture it with a cornucopia machine. This may be the reason for price variance... an object with higher complexity requires more time on the printer to get going, and therefore requires a longer time investment for production than something that is less complex. So the functional value of an object may essentially sum to [value = cost of resources * time to manufacture].
The GM section does give a decent list of possible motivations regarding the ETI, so it isn't like the game hasn't addressed it at all. But the games themes are based on Lovecraftian horror... and one key aspect to that genre is that the "elder gods" of such a setting are unknown and unknowable by us mere mortals. So mysterious motivations fit the game to a large degree.
Plus, I've found there to be quite a few benefits to not having any direct motivations drawn out by the writers. I had three campaigns going, and in each one I had a completely different interpretation of the ETI and their motivations. In one of them I even made the ETI themselves into direct antagonists (and yes, I understand that this should have resulted in auto-extinction for the human race; this was an action movie-inspired campaign, so we sort of glossed over it for the sake of cool and fun).
I absolutely agree with this. Psychosurgery needs quite a bit more detail in this game. Also, the editing of digital memories by hackers has little info on how much, and how easily, it can be done. And as a big fan of Ghost in the Shell, I really want more detailed info on how easily ghost-hacking can be done in this setting.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.
[url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Wed, 2013-05-01 13:06
#5
Decivre wrote:
I agree with basically everything in your post barring this point. I would be extremely careful with changing the maximum skill values of base AI, especially within the Eclipse Phase setting. Almost any task that an AI is expected to perform regularly is either covered by simple success tests, or it is difficult enough that an AI should fairly regularly fail at it.
Providing AI with skill values above 40 makes it 1) extremely easy for them to hit high effective skill values, something they already manage fairly easily with the bonus bloat that many skill suffer from, and 2) devalues the in game worth of Indentures, something the setting relies heavily on. If AI are capable of high skill values (and skill wires are available at similar values) then the Inner Systems entire economy basically crashes into the ground.
Personally I find that skills can already be boosted to 99 easily enough that no change is really necessary. All an AI having a skill of 40 means, in most cases, is that it takes it 20% longer to perform tasks (Taking your Time rules OP!).
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Wed, 2013-05-01 15:17
#6
CodeBreaker wrote:I agree
I wanted the game to emphasize automation, and one aspect where automation is lacking in Eclipse Phase is combat. An automated turret in Eclipse Phase is pretty crappy, even when you take into account most skill bonuses. This doesn't seem very logical to me. It gets even more confusing when you have automated missile systems... an AI-guided missile should be able to hit its target nearly every time, but this doesn't translate well with a skillcap of 40.
To me, it makes more sense that an AI would be able to achieve something in a fraction of the time to a greater degree of precision. Even today this is true; the limitations of automation have more to do with lateral thinking, while precision skills are far easier for a computer to achieve. And this is something that the current system doesn't really reflect.
I'm fine with an AI being sucky at using social skills, but it's always been odd to me that it cannot shoot a painted target with perfect accuracy nearly every time.
Maybe it would work best if AI are treated as always having a +60 take your time bonus with any action that would be easy for an automated task (like aiming, or searching the internet), while having the traditional 40 cap with all other skills (so they aren't that good at socializing, or seeing through deception, or skills that require abstract talent).
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.
[url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Thu, 2013-05-02 07:14
#7
Thanks for the replies all.
Thanks for the replies all.
To address a couple of point people kindly responded about
[h1]Skill softs[/h1]
They replies where mainly addressing AI and Muses, but the main issue I was seeing was in their implementation for your general player, ie for a biomorph or synthmorph, not just for an AI.
[h1]ETI Motivations[/h1]
I suppose what I was mainly addressing here is the rule suggest possible motivations and strategies, but do not give an actual one. While I can decide for my own campaign and write my own stories, I think it would be better for the developers to actualy craft a meta story and actually state at least in broad details the ETI's motivations.
But not 'they are so advanaced it is beyond transhuman inderstanding' or something similar.
Thu, 2013-05-02 07:35
#8
Maybe they should have better
Maybe they should have better descriptions and advantages for high stats eg; some with a high ego also gets eidetic/photographic memory or able to calculate faster without needing to get enhancements. Or maybe they can stack on existing enhancements.
Fri, 2013-05-03 21:46
#9
cmacleod wrote:Thanks for the
I think the general idea is that skillsofts are pruned from people's minds, a variant on the production of forks. Much like forks, the end-result sans all that ego's memories, personality and other skills results in a reduced skill overall. I agree that it's a shame that they don't allow for higher values, but skillsofts aren't meant to make you very competent, just give you some skill in an ability for a relatively temporary time.
In that sense, they function rather well.
Core book, page 353. Enjoy.
—
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age.
[url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]