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Why is transhumanism such a sausagefest?

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Mon, 2013-04-22 02:41
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ranxerox wrote:Having noticed
Ranxerox wrote:
Having noticed a strong gender imbalance at transhumanist events you are perfectly right to want to attract more females into the movement. I find it somewhat farcical that there are people here arguing otherwise.
Please resort to arguments instead of namecalling. It might also have saved you the rest of your post.
Quote:
Personally I suggest that you make a strong effort in making the composition of panels at your conventions is a gender equal as possible. If you can find prominent female writers, sociologist and scientist to sit on these panels, great. If you can't then invite females who might not be as well known as the men they are sharing the panel table with. Who knows? Maybe in looking back in a decade their names will seem right at home with the names of their male colleagues.
I really think we should evaluate people on their merits rather than their sex. Bringing on token women is demeaning to the token women, the women who actually got a spot by merit, and the men who deserved the spot but didn't get it because of discrimination.
Quote:
As for the gender imbalance in Facebook likes the EP has, try to make the game less of a sausage. Setting is not the same thing as story, and the EP setting could be used to tell stories of romance, heartbreak, friendship, female coming of age and other typical female interest. However, based on the examples in the books and what sort of contest the rules focus, EP seems squarely focused on typical male interest such as violence, death and politics.
You know, those vampire rules Jack Graham posted at the beginning of the month, they're practically ready to go. The stuff about deep, sad emotions and food issues, should fit the bill. I'm also thinking something like 50 shades of grey. Between pleasure pods, psychosurgery and medichines that could easily be topped. And with enhanced vision we can beat the title. 144 wavelengths of ultraviolet? Ok, back in the real world. How about making stories that players will like and buy? Players, not females or males, just players. And stories that the developers want to tell? So the game gets more followers, and the developers get to make money and have fun? This whole "let us everyone do what women want" is just so 1970.
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Mon, 2013-04-22 08:24
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
jhfurnish wrote:Create a
jhfurnish wrote:
Create a system of adventuring that involves gathering, creating, acquiring materials and tech. Also, a similar system for simulating creativity and building things like fanbase and the business-end of entertainment. Throw in intrigue and the existing twists on transhuman life and I think you can have a winner.
What's weird is, I think EP can already do that stuff. Just reading the core-book I got ideas for lots of stories that don't at all involve free running through low-G habitats shooting at Exsurgents. Not that I didn't have ideas in that direction too (see my previously stated trend in D&D games to err on the side of carnage). Not that more rules and setting material is a bad thing, that'd be great if done well. Just not sure how much more system would be needed to do those things... strikes me more as something that could be discussed in more a 'how to' part of a supplement rather than needing all new rules modules to handle. But then, I've run highly political games of D&D with minimal violence using 3.x rules, where the entirety of the mechanic system came down to "roll diplomacy" or "roll bluff". I've also seen the horrors of things like Exalted's Social Combat, that even made me wince for how disproportionately influential social characters became. Stabbing talky people in the face became the best option. Not good. Just some thoughts. ^_^
Smokeskin wrote:
I'm also thinking something like 50 shades of grey. Between pleasure pods, psychosurgery and medichines that could easily be topped. And with enhanced vision we can beat the title. 144 wavelengths of ultraviolet?
Eww... 50 shades is just porn... and worse yet it's really bad porn. *had already long-since though of ways the mechanics/setting could be used that way* ...shut up. :P
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Mon, 2013-04-22 13:58
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Ranxerox wrote:
Ranxerox wrote:
As for the gender imbalance in Facebook likes the EP has, try to make the game less of a sausage. Setting is not the same thing as story, and the EP setting could be used to tell stories of romance, heartbreak, friendship, female coming of age and other typical female interest. However, based on the examples in the books and what sort of contest the rules focus, EP seems squarely focused on typical male interest such as violence, death and politics.
Heavens no. This is the exact wrong attitude that I am writing about. Why should majority of players suddenly have their adventures and setting changed to cater to a minority group that is uninterested anyway? The reason will be purely ideological and certainly of no benefit to the game itself, nor the world. Furthermore it is absurd that women aren't interested in violence, death or politics. Anyone working in female dominated work environment knows that women do care about politics a lot, and as to violence, while women use less physical one, they do more psychological and social violence like mobbing for example.
Ravn wrote:
@ Extrasolar Angel If you don't know what the Privilege Denying Dude meme is, I suggest you google it.
You brought it up, you explain it. I have scarce time to google for racist generalizing rants about people whose only fault is having a white skin color by individuals too ignorant to distinguish between various nationalities and unable to grasp that history of Lemkos or Poles is different from history of British or Dutch people.
Ranxerox wrote:
H Personally I suggest that you make a strong effort in making the composition of panels at your conventions is a gender equal as possible. If you can find prominent female writers, sociologist and scientist to sit on these panels, great. If you can't then invite females who might not be as well known as the men they are sharing the panel table with.
And since others have noted how men dominate discussions we should limit the time men can speak, and also create a privilege checker, who will observe if women have more time to talk and interact, if men take too much time talking zee should use an alarm bell and shout "misogyny, misogyny!". Something like the occupy movement did during some panels...
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Mon, 2013-04-22 16:28
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Regarding morph-swapping, all
Regarding morph-swapping, all the people I've met most eager to change their bodies have always been women. And again for exowombs. (Again note that the sample size for this is pretty tiny, but I don't imagine this is unusual. The desire for cyberware has, in my experience, been about equally cut, when you limit the sample population to techies and geeks.) Again, please don't start painting the setting pink to specifically cater to women. EP is a good story. While that story will expand to explore more of this setting, it needs to be done faithfully to the art.
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Mon, 2013-04-22 17:00
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
nizkateth wrote:Smokeskin
nizkateth wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I'm also thinking something like 50 shades of grey. Between pleasure pods, psychosurgery and medichines that could easily be topped. And with enhanced vision we can beat the title. 144 wavelengths of ultraviolet?
Eww... 50 shades is just porn... and worse yet it's really bad porn. *had already long-since though of ways the mechanics/setting could be used that way* ...shut up. :P
But women read it! Stuff like that will do wonders for gender equality!
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Mon, 2013-04-22 16:58
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
As I've said... I see no need
As I've said... I see no need to change the subject matter to cater to women. We may look at it differently, but all we need is the breathing room to do what we like with it. The idea that women would need settings and systems specifically "for us" is as ridiculous as those stupid "bic for her" pens.
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Mon, 2013-04-22 17:00
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Smokeskin wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
nizkateth wrote:
Eww... 50 shades is just porn... and worse yet it's really bad porn. *had already long-since though of ways the mechanics/setting could be used that way* ...shut up. :P
But women read it!
Don't remind me. I want to face-palm every time I see it. And I've seen men read it too. But then, the whole Twilight-fangirl-culture sickens me anyway.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Mon, 2013-04-22 17:15
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
nizkateth wrote:Smokeskin
nizkateth wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
nizkateth wrote:
Eww... 50 shades is just porn... and worse yet it's really bad porn. *had already long-since though of ways the mechanics/setting could be used that way* ...shut up. :P
But women read it!
Don't remind me. I want to face-palm every time I see it. And I've seen men read it too.
I bought all of them. For my wife.
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Mon, 2013-04-22 20:29
Ranxerox Ranxerox's picture
No worries
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Ranxerox wrote:
As for the gender imbalance in Facebook likes the EP has, try to make the game less of a sausage. Setting is not the same thing as story, and the EP setting could be used to tell stories of romance, heartbreak, friendship, female coming of age and other typical female interest. However, based on the examples in the books and what sort of contest the rules focus, EP seems squarely focused on typical male interest such as violence, death and politics.
Heavens no. This is the exact wrong attitude that I am writing about. Why should majority of players suddenly have their adventures and setting changed to cater to a minority group that is uninterested anyway? The reason will be purely ideological and certainly of no benefit to the game itself, nor the world. Furthermore it is absurd that women aren't interested in violence, death or politics. Anyone working in female dominated work environment knows that women do care about politics a lot, and as to violence, while women use less physical one, they do more psychological and social violence like mobbing for example.
It's okay, guy. Nothing you like about EP has to go away. I'm not talking about getting rid of anything about the setting, I'm talking about adding on. That's one of the wonderful things about palaces of the imagination, you can always add more rooms. The setting can already accommodate the sorts of stories that I'm talking about. I'm just proposing that it be more explicit about it in order to better appeal to those that like those types of stories. That doesn't mean that it can't go right on hosting the sorts of stories that you like also.
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Ranxerox wrote:
Personally I suggest that you make a strong effort in making the composition of panels at your conventions is a gender equal as possible. If you can find prominent female writers, sociologist and scientist to sit on these panels, great. If you can't then invite females who might not be as well known as the men they are sharing the panel table with.
And since others have noted how men dominate discussions we should limit the time men can speak, and also create a privilege checker, who will observe if women have more time to talk and interact, if men take too much time talking zee should use an alarm bell and shout "misogyny, misogyny!". Something like the occupy movement did during some panels...
I mean no offense (indeed I mean you only well) so please don't take offense at my next observation. You seem very defensive to me. In my experience people who are defensive usually get that way because they have a history of being attacked. If you have been attacked too many times in this life, I'm truly sorry about that. I'm pretty comfortable in my life right now, but I do know what it is like to live in fear of attack. So if you need help, I would be happy to do what I can even if it just to listen. Feel free to PM me if you want to.
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Mon, 2013-04-22 22:26
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
I won't add much to this
I won't add much to this discussion, but i'd love to read it from the inflammatory first page to the very tangential second page to the relatively balanced third page. Sadly, i don't think i could add something meaninful to this discussion. As far as i stand, i don't understand all of the facts presented in the whole feminism debate. When i look at it, i find both equally silly and think we should "just solve it" (abolish gender) and focus on more important stuff. But then, i for myself do not know, if misogyny as big a problem as sometimes painted or not. This thread didn't help me much on that front. I could state my opinion on things. Maybe this adds something meaningful and i can actually provide a stream of thought for myself. Sharing some info about me: Central Europe (Austria), Male, 25yrs, straight. I do care about gender. Of course, i am biologically wired to like women and multiply my genes with a female of my species. I still think that abolishing gender is a good idea. So far so good. Ah, but what if this is just a cultural inclination? Hmmm i did one time tried to have intercourse with a male human. I didn't like it. So i guess i can substract the cultural imperative? Just for the sake of this thought, i do (Possibility here is, that i am subconsciously fearful of discovering an uncomfortable truth). Daily life: I do not look at a women and think of her consciously as a object of sexuality. While i do think that, consciously, i view pretty much everything as an object with attributes (having dabbled in programming and really liking Descartes famous quote didn't help in that regard), i think its time to set up the standard, that i do objectify everything, so the point of objectifying women is moot, i think. I am an object too. Thinking about interactions with women the last months who aren't related to me and in a desireable spectrum for sexual attracation... well yeah i was attracted and imagined how it would be to have romantic interactions (romantic touching to intercourse) with them. There was in no way any hint on forcing it on them from my part and consciously i find that thought abhorrent. These females were most of the time people, i had more than one interaction with, which is noteworthy, since i don't tend to develop any interest in other people, when there is no ongoing interaction. This is true for males and females (and a reason my extended relatives despise me for). Okay. Lets say every person is an object with a string of attributes to it. And statistically spoken, both can have pretty much the same attributes. Except one has attributes, which enable me to engage in enjoying activities for both parties (consensual intercourse). This excludes the whole Faithfulness-Shebang, because i think that this is another whole can of worms and not related to this discussion and topic. I do not know how females work. I do not know if they are biologically wired to like things different. As far as i can tell, they aren't. But then, there are people who argue that they are (males and females alike). It makes sense to me, that we are psychologically different. I mean, both gender do serve different roles in the whole social group of the human herd, so sure, maybe there is some biological wiring. Or it is cultural, because hey, maybe early cavemen started this whole shit and following cultures just picked it up because it works. But i do not know for certain that it is that way, because i never was female to begin with (an experience, i hope i can one day have). Lets get a bit practical here, because my head bursts from all this theoretical stuff. There are several females in my regular gaming circle (i use circle here because while i do have traditional games, the bigger part of female gamers i meet semi-regular and do not game with). Some of them fall into the spectrum of sexual attraction, and we do engage in flirtatious activities on both sides once in a while. But when i substract that sexual stuff, there is still pretty much reason for me to interact with them on a regular, positive basis. Because i enjoy the company, the discussions, the games we play, the garbage we talk. Because hey, we are all objects. And those particular kind of objects, have another possibility for enjoyment added. Following that logic, it would absolutely make sense to prefer female friends over male ones, because they add more possibilities to my life. Is this misogynistic? Because i do not know, honestly. The last thing i want is to make a women feel uncomfortable simply because of their gender. Making her uncomfortable simply because she's an ass on the other hand... Did this add something?
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Tue, 2013-04-23 03:41
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
GreyBrother wrote:IAnd those
GreyBrother wrote:
IAnd those particular kind of objects, have another possibility for enjoyment added. Following that logic, it would absolutely make sense to prefer female friends over male ones, because they add more possibilities to my life. Is this misogynistic?
No. Somewhat self destructive though ;) Look up Ladder Theory. Women don't do their friends :)
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Tue, 2013-04-23 02:18
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ranxerox wrote:
Ranxerox wrote:
I mean no offense (indeed I mean you only well) so please don't take offense at my next observation. You seem very defensive to me. In my experience people who are defensive usually get that way because they have a history of being attacked. If you have been attacked too many times in this life, I'm truly sorry about that. I'm pretty comfortable in my life right now, but I do know what it is like to live in fear of attack. So if you need help, I would be happy to do what I can even if it just to listen. Feel free to PM me if you want to.
If you believed that, were sincere and had the slightest bit of empathy, you would have written that in a PM. So you're either dishonest and condescending, or socially oblivious. Or all of the above. And btw. Speaking your mind on these issues with anything but a feminist agenda will inevitably get you attacked by feminists. But illogical vitriol doesn't really hurt, this isn't the 70s were they got you ostracized.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 03:12
Ravn Ravn's picture
@ Extrasolar Angel
@ Extrasolar Angel This thing seems a bit like an emotional minefield for you, since you get more than a bit passive aggressive, claiming it's because you're white (your words, not mine) and freely start assuming it's about nationality (your words not mine). You say you don't know what it is, but start saying it's a racist rant (or rather assume it is)... hhmmm.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 03:37
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
I am not a moderator, and it
I am not a moderator, and it may not be my place to say so, but we are starting to venture down avenues that regularly end badly. I'm not saying stop, but be mindful that these are just internet forums about spaceships. We haven't really entered vitriolic territories quite yet, but I could see them developing quickly. Lets try and keep the conversation on the level.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 04:36
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ravn wrote:@ Extrasolar Angel
Ravn wrote:
@ Extrasolar Angel This thing seems a bit like an emotional minefield for you, since you get more than a bit passive aggressive, claiming it's because you're white (your words, not mine) and freely start assuming it's about nationality (your words not mine). You say you don't know what it is, but start saying it's a racist rant (or rather assume it is)... hhmmm.
It seems you only want to contribute with ad hominems. First the meme, now this - even after Extrasolar asked you to explain it rather than just refer to some meme (which I did google and was completely devoid of any argument and seemed mostly to be weak attempts at ridicule with straw men). For your benefit Ravn, from http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/privilege-denying-dude: Privilege Denying Dude is a series of image macros centered around a guy in a suit posing with his arms crossed, with captions satirizing the typical white male’s patronizing viewpoint on a range of politically sensitive issues like racism, homosexuality and feminism. So as you can see, the meme really is about typical white males. You ask him to look it up and then complain that he's assuming something listed on the first line of the meme's definition? And when Extrasolar mentioned nationality, he wasn't assuming it was about nationality. He wrote that when you just stereotype white males into one group you're overgeneralizing. And just because I can't resist :) I know you're angry, but could you try being a bit more like The Credible Hulk? http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5j6q3DkRy1qbh620o1_1280.jpg
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Tue, 2013-04-23 08:27
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I bought all
Smokeskin wrote:
I bought all of them. For my wife.
Yes... for your [i]wife[/i]... sure... :P
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Tue, 2013-04-23 11:26
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
nizkateth wrote:Smokeskin
nizkateth wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I bought all of them. For my wife.
Yes... for your [i]wife[/i]... sure... :P
I hope for his wife. If he bought them for himself then I would slap him around the head for bad taste in books. They aren't just poorly written, but they are horrendously damaging for people coming into their kink. The relationship portrayed in those books is terribly abusive. Not because of the BDSM thing, but because they are doing BDSM wrong.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 12:14
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
nizkateth wrote:Smokeskin
nizkateth wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I bought all of them. For my wife.
Yes... for your [i]wife[/i]... sure... :P
I'm into still image, not literary porn.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 12:25
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:
I hope for his wife. If he bought them for himself then I would slap him around the head for bad taste in books. They aren't just poorly written, but they are horrendously damaging for people coming into their kink. The relationship portrayed in those books is terribly abusive. Not because of the BDSM thing, but because they are doing BDSM wrong.
Haha yeah my tumblr dashboard was full of complaints about that. It wasn't for the BDSM though (I'm maybe bd--) but she told me one of her friends had read them and got turned on by it so it seemed natural to buy them for her. It's one of those gifts like lingerie and waffle irons, just as much for yourself.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 12:58
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:nizkateth
CodeBreaker wrote:
nizkateth wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I bought all of them. For my wife.
Yes... for your [i]wife[/i]... sure... :P
I hope for his wife. If he bought them for himself then I would slap him around the head for bad taste in books.
You'd slap him but not his wife? :P
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Tue, 2013-04-23 13:51
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
You'd slap him but not his wife? :P
I'm a misogynistic asshole who needs to check his cis white male privilege :D I was taught never to hit women, under any circumstances, ever (edit: excluding the obvious 'coming at me with a knife' examples). And it kind of stuck.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 13:46
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:
I was taught never to hit women, under any circumstances, ever. And it kind of stuck.
Yeah that's funny how it sticks. I once got punched really hard by a girl, my jaw hurt badly for days. Instead of just dropping her like she deserved I grappled her and she scratched me in the face before I got her under control. And then the bouncers threw me out. We live in such a matriarchy.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 13:50
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Smokeskin wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
We live in such a matriarchy.
For serious, my life as a straight, wealthy white male is chock full of oppression. It really is a bother. :D
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Tue, 2013-04-23 14:15
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Yeah! We can't slap them, but
Yeah! We can't slap them, but they can diss our manhood. I'm sure that fmri will one day reveal those to cause the same distress. And the whole discourse of society is on their terms. It's always 'talk about your emotions' and never 'shut up and watch the damn game, then sex'. And even being wealthy you have to put up with that.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 15:25
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Yeah that's
Smokeskin wrote:
Yeah that's funny how it sticks. I once got punched really hard by a girl, my jaw hurt badly for days. Instead of just dropping her like she deserved I grappled her and she scratched me in the face before I got her under control. And then the bouncers threw me out.
Meh, that's unfair. Should have slugged her back. I say, if she starts it, go ahead and retaliate. Because I'm a feminist... not a [i]"feminist"[/i]. Equality... it means being equal.
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Tue, 2013-04-23 17:41
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
CodeBreaker wrote:I am not a
CodeBreaker wrote:
I am not a moderator, and it may not be my place to say so, but we are starting to venture down avenues that regularly end badly. I'm not saying stop, but be mindful that these are just internet forums about spaceships. We haven't really entered vitriolic territories quite yet, but I could see them developing quickly. Lets try and keep the conversation on the level.
Yup. Sorry if I overreacted at times :) I apologize. However seeing a couple of interesting places on the net infiltrated by feminists activists and converting them for spreading their message makes me watchful for other such attempts. In any case I am glad to see that many members here are quite reasonable(and that includes you nizkateth) :)
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Tue, 2013-04-23 17:46
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Ravn wrote:@ Extrasolar Angel
Ravn wrote:
@ Extrasolar Angel This thing seems a bit like an emotional minefield for you, since you get more than a bit passive aggressive, claiming it's because you're white (your words, not mine) and freely start assuming it's about nationality (your words not mine). You say you don't know what it is, but start saying it's a racist rant (or rather assume it is)... hhmmm.
Hey, I didn't knew about the meme, although I know about white male priviliage theory. One of the amusing examples of its use was SF author John Scalzi who wrote an article about "Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is. ". Unfortunately the comments were closed before I managed to ask if white males in Minsk, Belarus have easier setting than non-white males in Tokyo, Japan ;)
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[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Wed, 2013-04-24 05:44
Ravn Ravn's picture
Sorry people, had an
Sorry people, had an intrusion of RL, so my response is a bit late. About the meme: The first time I mentioned it, it was a joke. And if you fail to see that in the context of when it was posted, then it's not much I can do but appologize if anyone got offended. I still haven't changed my opinion that it's almost parodical to say that including people from a group that represents more than 50% of humanity, ruins things. Extrasolar Angel has explained himself that it came off in a wrong way, so the joke doesn't stand. After that it has, in my humble opinion, blown out of proportions. If EA didn't want to take the ten seconds to google something; fine. I then assumed (wrongly I might add) that it really wasn't that big a deal ( I mean, if you think googling something takes too much time, I can only assume that you wouldn't be interested in reading my explanation). The fact that there are white males living in trailer parks in this world does not take away from the fact that the white man is the most privileged group on this planet. The crux of the matter is that it's the prerogative of the white male to not see that. I'm a white male. Not rich, not in any influential position and with kind of a dead end job. I can't wave my hand and make things happen just because I'm a white man. Just because I'm part of the group that has the most power and privilege in the world, doesn't mean I am that group. @Extrasolar Angel: sorry if you got insulted by my joke. It was well-deserved at the time, but got superfluous when you explained yourself. @Smokeskin: I'm not angry ... or not more angry than usual ;-) . You just wait until I find something to say about you mentioning socialism and communism as the bad thing about the 20th century, and not the two world wars, the genocides in the name of profit and natural resources, the atomic bomb, the enivronmental destruction in the name of capitalism... ;-)
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Wed, 2013-04-24 07:58
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ravn wrote:You just wait
Ravn wrote:
You just wait until I find something to say about you mentioning socialism and communism as the bad thing about the 20th century, and not the two world wars, the genocides in the name of profit and natural resources, the atomic bomb, the enivronmental destruction in the name of capitalism... ;-)
EDIT: I just wrote the below, then realized you were probably joking. But here it is anyway. - when evaluating the effect of socialism and communism you have to factor in opportunity cost. Look at the development that the capitalistic west went through, compared to the Soviet Union, China, and all the other socialist and communist nations. We're talking not just the 10s of millions in direct loses, in reality billions of lives were squandered away in misery. - the world wars were horrible but almost trivial compared to socialism and communism. - genocides in the name of profit and natural resources? Huh? Genocides is something that non-capitalistic regimes do, isn't it? Profit and use of natural resources tends to bring wealth and long and happy lives. - I'm not sure we can blame the nuclear bomb. That's just technology, and it can be used for good or bad. I don't really see that it caused much direct harm. I guess you could argue that it prevented us from defeating communism militarily, but I'm not sure that would have happened anyway. In general it prevented a lot of wars, but it is difficult to say if that's negative or positive. I don't think it is reasonable to talk about the risk of all-out nuclear war either - that risk was more a consequence of the conflict between the free world and communism. - Practically nothing bad happened from environmental destruction, and most of that happened in communistic nations (pollution was horrible there). Capitalism on the other hand brought dramatic improvements to quality of life. Turning over wild areas to uses that benefit humans is generally a great idea. I'm a hunter and like nature, but I don't need much of it, and I think it is a great idea that we turned so much over to farm land and living space so people can be fed and lead rich lives.
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Wed, 2013-04-24 08:53
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Extrasolar Angel wrote:In any
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
In any case I am glad to see that many members here are quite reasonable(and that includes you nizkateth) :)
^_^ Like I said, just an [b]actual[/b] feminist. ...and I'm pretty used to dealing with guys getting defensive or antagonistic about this subject. Having been in gaming for about 19 years, and all.
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Mon, 2013-04-29 16:18
thelabmonkey thelabmonkey's picture
It's about presentation and accessibility.
So let me preface this by saying that I work in the video games industry... Regardless of whether men and women trend towards types of activities or interests, one thing that remains universal is entertainment. The human brain likes to be surprised, challenged, and provided with risk/reward scenarios that (at least marginally) favor the reward. You can have a game with the exact same mechanics that has been reskinned thematically and you will have wildly different demographics enjoy it equally. It's about presentation and accessibility. Whether these things come in the form of discussion at a dinner party or by rolling dice and pretending to be another person (or entity) is just a matter of form. Let's assume for my argument here that we are in North America and I am a male about to approach a female whom I have never met at, say, a friend's bbq to broach the subject of Transhumanity (let's also assume I have a way to successfully break the ice and segue into said subject). Given the assumptions I have to make in order to function on a social level, I will probably not start in with the hard science angle. More likely I'd start with the idea of virtual immortality and the ethical ramifications of embryonic genetic manipulation to avoid things like autism. If it were a guy, I'd start in with cortical stacks, skillsofts, and cyber-limbs. BUT! The most important point is that I make the effort to be [b]inclusive[/b] and engage them with what I guess to be of interest. Cars, rap music, northern california legislative gaffs... these things do not interest me, but I have spent hours discussing them because someone took a minute to bring them up and find an angle that didn't bore me. Anecdotally, I know a gal who LOVES to play head-smashing barbarians in D&D games. Just loves it. And I know a guy who's character spent a year in-game nurturing a tiny world inside a magical item; taking time outside of game to write about the miniature people who lived there. My wife loves original-trek, DS9, Mass Effect, Portal 1/2, and Farscape (season 1-2). She does not like Terminator, Starship Troopers, Predator. I have a 2 year running EP campaign and she and the other player have managed to avoid all but a few combat related conflicts. This is because I know what interests them. They don't want to feel like burly badasses, they want to feel clever and sneaky. I know of other groups where 90% of rolls are social or knowledge/profession skills. So to respond to the OP... a large part of the disparity is in how transhumanity is being presented, and to whom. If you don't ever talk to women about it, no women will know about it. If you do talk to them about it, but don't talk to them about it in a way they will find interesting (they being on an individual level here, not and all-women-ever generalization), it obviously won't hold their attention.
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Mon, 2013-04-29 17:09
thelabmonkey thelabmonkey's picture
slightly off topic...
I wanted to snarkily respond to a couple of the comments regarding the dilution and homogenization of video games: 1. If you think that an evolution of story elements beyond the "A wizard stole your girlfriend!" opening cut scene is some kind of tragedy, go grab some NES games and rock out. Don't tell me that the inclusion of actual plot lines, personalities, and player interactions that go beyond "punch, shoot, jump over, eat" is in some way a step backward. Sorry to have emasculated your games with such things as being able to have sex. I know how horrible an idea that must be. 2. re: "Law of diminishing returns-at certain point your ideas will become shallow and copies of mass pop culture. Something similar happened to video games." This shit pisses me off every time it's used for any argument. The explosion if successful indie gaming (both electronic and pen-n-paper) would beg to differ with that statement. There's a huge number of games that would be [b]absolutely unpublishable[/b] were it not for the increasingly large number of non-traditional gamers. By including more people, you have... wait for it... [b]included more people[/b]! Let me elaborate. Yes, the large AAA titles try to encompass as much of the people-pie as possible. But did you consider how much money they need to make in order to break even? They have to hedge their bets and make a game that appeals to the masses because if they don't, they go under. Unless you would like to pay $120 per game, I suggest you hope more people begin liking and playing games. On the other side of the same coin, a larger base of people means that niche markets become financially feasible for small indie companies. If RPGs were still only played by 12-18 year old white males with no social lives, how could projects like Eclipse Phase even begin to approach a profit? This is universal. Men, women, either, neither. Money is money and lady dollars spend just as well and man bucks.
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Mon, 2013-04-29 20:33
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
thelabmonkey wrote
thelabmonkey wrote:
Anecdotally, I know a gal who LOVES to play head-smashing barbarians in D&D games. Just loves it. And I know a guy who's character spent a year in-game nurturing a tiny world inside a magical item; taking time outside of game to write about the miniature people who lived there.
1. That's my girlfriend. She was pissed when she couldn't play a minotaur in 4e. 2. Your AD&D game sounds AWESOME. Then again, I play Dwarf Fortress, so of course the tiny people inside the magic item appeal to me.
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J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Mon, 2013-04-29 20:45
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
thelabmonkey wrote:Yes, the
thelabmonkey wrote:
Yes, the large AAA titles try to encompass as much of the people-pie as possible. But did you consider how much money they need to make in order to break even? They have to hedge their bets and make a game that appeals to the masses because if they don't, they go under. Unless you would like to pay $120 per game, I suggest you hope more people begin liking and playing games.
Yeah, the economics of AAA games are utterly broken. I got curious about this when Pathfinder did their massmorg Kickstarter. They raise about $.5 million, and I was wondering, "how far would that go toward making a game?" As it turns out, not far at all if you're talking about a AAA game, where budgets are in the tens of millions of dollars. Call of Duty (which I play the fuck out of) is the last holdout of sausage in the AAA world, and this will last only as long as white dudes have most of the money.
thelabmonkey wrote:
On the other side of the same coin, a larger base of people means that niche markets become financially feasible for small indie companies. If RPGs were still only played by 12-18 year old white males with no social lives, how could projects like Eclipse Phase even begin to approach a profit? This is universal. Men, women, either, neither. Money is money and lady dollars spend just as well and man bucks.
Well, we'd have to publish more boobies. And since we don't do that, we'd be skrooood. Interestingly, if you look at our demographics on FB, 13-17 is our weakest demographic... Weaker, even that 65+! Another interesting thing, though, is that 13-17 is the only demo block in which we're 50/50 male/female... Though given the small sample size, I'm not sure that tells us anything. I'm more concerned about the fact that overall, our breakdown is about 91% male, 9% female. I was comparing notes a few days ago with my friend Joshua Newman, who makes an indie SF RPG called Shock, which contains many transhuman elements. His fanbase is about 60% female, 40% male.
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J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Mon, 2013-04-29 21:40
sysop sysop's picture
Huh - that *is* really
Huh - that *is* really interesting, is it perhaps that the primary audience has - till now - been self-selected? Self selection bias can cause some of the really wierd notes as I recall. I'd love sometime to do a more widespread poll, not restricted to the self-selection of website or facebook populations. Also *bookmarks a new RPG to pick up*, thank you muchly. :)
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Tue, 2013-04-30 02:54
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
thelabmonkey wrote:
thelabmonkey wrote:
1. If you think that an evolution of story elements beyond the "A wizard stole your girlfriend!" opening cut scene is some kind of tragedy, go grab some NES games and rock out. Don't tell me that the inclusion of actual plot lines, personalities, and player interactions that go beyond "punch, shoot, jump over, eat" is in some way a step backward. Sorry to have emasculated your games with such things as being able to have sex. I know how horrible an idea that must be.
That's a bit of a straw man. Something like the TV show 24, that features sophisticated plots, character development, personal conflict, and it deals a lot with political and philosophical issues like consequentalism vs. deontology - and it is solidly and squarely aimed at a male audience. While a show like Breaking Bad was in many ways better and managed to adress both sides of the aisle, I want my RPGs and computer games more like 24. And I think a lot of guys feel the same. It isn't just a matter of superficiality. The content can and should have depth.
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Tue, 2013-04-30 03:02
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
jackgraham wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
Well, we'd have to publish more boobies. And since we don't do that, we'd be skrooood.
I've always felt that at a time where you can modify your looks like you want to, a lot more people should look like the Martian Ranger. Look at how prevalent breast implants, hair extensions and botox is today. More beautiful people would be way more realistic.
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Tue, 2013-04-30 10:14
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Smokeskin wrote:I've always
Smokeskin wrote:
I've always felt that at a time where you can modify your looks like you want to, a lot more people should look like the Martian Ranger. Look at how prevalent breast implants, hair extensions and botox is today. More beautiful people would be way more realistic.
Yeah, I'd think the standard, at least for biomorphs, would be fairly pretty overall (for either gender). My only objection to the depiction of "attractive women" is the impracticality of attire at times, and sometimes the impossible-spine-curve to show off chest and ass at the same time (to be fair, some morphs may be that flexible). I'd just figure battle-morphs like the Ranger or a Fury might be wearing... I don't know... armor? Like actual armor? Not stylized and reinforced lingerie? Sexy-clothes makes sense on a sylph socialite, not so much on someone expecting to get shot at. http://flygirlgamers.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/female-armor-funny-2-20...
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Tue, 2013-04-30 15:46
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
To be fair, that Martian
To be fair, that Martian Ranger has cold adaptation, so she doesn't need to wear much ;) and people only wear armor when they expect to get shot at. Fantasy warriors wearing only armored underwear is of course ridiculous. But it obeys the Rule of Cool ;) TERA was awesome, wasn't it?
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Tue, 2013-04-30 23:44
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
nizkateth wrote:Smokeskin
nizkateth wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I've always felt that at a time where you can modify your looks like you want to, a lot more people should look like the Martian Ranger. Look at how prevalent breast implants, hair extensions and botox is today. More beautiful people would be way more realistic.
Yeah, I'd think the standard, at least for biomorphs, would be fairly pretty overall (for either gender). My only objection to the depiction of "attractive women" is the impracticality of attire at times, and sometimes the impossible-spine-curve to show off chest and ass at the same time (to be fair, some morphs may be that flexible). I'd just figure battle-morphs like the Ranger or a Fury might be wearing... I don't know... armor? Like actual armor? Not stylized and reinforced lingerie? Sexy-clothes makes sense on a sylph socialite, not so much on someone expecting to get shot at. http://flygirlgamers.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/female-armor-funny-2-20...
That illo was the result of a creative struggle between us, an artist who wouldn't take direction when we said 'put clothes on her,' and the deadline for Sunward. Just for the record: I fucking hate it. I like my women fighters in reasonable armor. But since drawing over her torso in brown marker wasn't really an option for a presentable book... there you go. Inadvertent fan servicing. I like to think she's counterbalanced by all of the penises in Degenesis. :)
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J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
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Wed, 2013-05-01 03:09
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
jackgraham wrote:nizkateth
jackgraham wrote:
nizkateth wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
I've always felt that at a time where you can modify your looks like you want to, a lot more people should look like the Martian Ranger. Look at how prevalent breast implants, hair extensions and botox is today. More beautiful people would be way more realistic.
Yeah, I'd think the standard, at least for biomorphs, would be fairly pretty overall (for either gender). My only objection to the depiction of "attractive women" is the impracticality of attire at times, and sometimes the impossible-spine-curve to show off chest and ass at the same time (to be fair, some morphs may be that flexible). I'd just figure battle-morphs like the Ranger or a Fury might be wearing... I don't know... armor? Like actual armor? Not stylized and reinforced lingerie? Sexy-clothes makes sense on a sylph socialite, not so much on someone expecting to get shot at. http://flygirlgamers.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/female-armor-funny-2-20...
That illo was the result of a creative struggle between us, an artist who wouldn't take direction when we said 'put clothes on her,' and the deadline for Sunward. Just for the record: I fucking hate it. I like my women fighters in reasonable armor. But since drawing over her torso in brown marker wasn't really an option for a presentable book... there you go. Inadvertent fan servicing.
I think she's perfect. She's exactly what a redneck with EP cosmetic tech would look like. Obviously she's not on her way to a fight, but walking into a bar with her cool cigar-smoking smart baboon in tow, it's spot on. Even soldiers and cops have personal lives.
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Wed, 2013-05-01 03:30
jhfurnish jhfurnish's picture
Women in Armor, Girls with Guns
Smokeskin wrote:
jackgraham wrote:
nizkateth wrote:
I'd just figure battle-morphs like the Ranger or a Fury might be wearing... I don't know... armor? Like actual armor? Not stylized and reinforced lingerie? Sexy-clothes makes sense on a sylph socialite, not so much on someone expecting to get shot at.
That illo was the result of a creative struggle between us, an artist who wouldn't take direction when we said 'put clothes on her,' and the deadline for Sunward. Just for the record: I fucking hate it. I like my women fighters in reasonable armor. But since drawing over her torso in brown marker wasn't really an option for a presentable book... there you go. Inadvertent fan servicing.
I think she's perfect. She's exactly what a redneck with EP cosmetic tech would look like. Obviously she's not on her way to a fight, but walking into a bar with her cool cigar-smoking smart baboon in tow, it's spot on.
You should try to get Summer Glau to model for some EP artwork sometime soon, btw. That said, I've noted that the depiction of women-in-arms has been ... laughably controversial throughout the history of fantasy and sci-fi. On one hand, there's the 'sausagefest' of geekery that wants to gawk. On the other hand, I actually met Boris Vallejo many years ago and his wife absolutely was built like that. With all due respect, I wouldn't have wanted to draw bulky armor over her, either... just sayin'. I do think that TV/movie sci-fi is getting a bit better about how women-in-arms are being depicted and I think you guys have done your best to make the tough gals in EP look realistic and yet still suitably dreamy for us geeks. This is the most modern, mature and forward-looking rpg world I've ever seen. Do tap Summer Glau for some modelling. With a vulcan gun or something.
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Wed, 2013-05-01 08:01
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
jackgraham wrote:I like to
jackgraham wrote:
I like to think she's counterbalanced by all of the penises in Degenesis. :)
Yeah. Those mangled dongs are totally counterbalancing it. %D Also for people interested in Shock, which are too lazy to google stuff on their own: http://glyphpress.com/shock/
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Wed, 2013-05-01 08:15
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
jackgraham wrote:reasonable
jackgraham wrote:
reasonable armor
Totally bookmarked that now. ^_^ And really, the problem isn't really attractive-women-under-dressed in fantasy and gaming art. The problem is when it's used inappropriately. I can kinda get the Fury in the mini-skirt because she's skum, and I'd sort of get the martian if she wasn't actively armed and obviously a ranger-type. The objection is when a 'competent' and 'powerful' female character is massively sexualized, especially in a way that makes no sense (no armor for instance). It just smacks too much of "don't worry guys... she may be skilled with weapons and physically powerful... but she's really just a fetishy pin-up for guys who like combat-stuff."
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Wed, 2013-05-01 11:39
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
nizkateth wrote:The objection
nizkateth wrote:
The objection is when a 'competent' and 'powerful' female character is massively sexualized, especially in a way that makes no sense (no armor for instance).
Remember that armor is rare. You're as likely to see a bullet proof vest as you are an assault rifle.
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Wed, 2013-05-01 12:06
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
GreyBrother wrote:
GreyBrother wrote:
Yeah. Those mangled dongs are totally counterbalancing it. %D Also for people interested in Shock, which are too lazy to google stuff on their own: http://glyphpress.com/shock/
So I understand picking a style and sticking with it, but Jesus Christ that website makes me want to put a bullet through my temple.
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Wed, 2013-05-01 13:27
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Remember that
Smokeskin wrote:
Remember that armor is rare. You're as likely to see a bullet proof vest as you are an assault rifle.
Again, it's about context. I have no issue with highly-attractive-under-dressed-women. Have sexy women in the art, that's cool. What I object to is characters in lingerie and a gun, when the exact same character (if male) would have had body armor and a gun. Because the later makes sense and depicts a capable combatant, while the former is a gun-fetish pin-up. If the goal is just to have pin-up girls with guns, then okay... but not when that's supposed to be the actual female fighters. Not sure if I'm relating this correctly... hope I am. Edit: to try and illustrate, light-heartedly This is a pin-up: http://www.hwdyk.com/q/images/futurama_s03e19_08.jpg This is a warrior: http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o215/9wheeler/nonsense/Animal-Mother-... Both are fine, so long as they are used properly.
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Sat, 2013-05-04 22:59
Shredicine Shredicine's picture
Both Ways
It sure does seem that mostly dudes play these kinds of RPG's, and I think that it could go both ways if more women got into sci-fi RPG's. I personally feel that it all falls on the individuals and how they interact with the group as a whole.
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Who are we, but slaves to our own personal interests?
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Fri, 2013-05-31 18:37
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Not trying to thread necro,
Not trying to thread necro, but I just realized this might be (and may not be) relevant: I'm not a transhumanist. Yet here I am commenting in this thread. And I'm a guy.
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Sat, 2013-06-01 17:51
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Transhumanism is largely a
Transhumanism is largely a sausage-fest because a) it is heavily rooted in computer science, science fiction and the hard sciences, which are sausage-fests, making women less likely to come into contact with the prevailing transhumanist community, and b) because a lot of popular transhuman fiction are male power fantasies (see: science fiction), and hence hold less appeal to women because of their tendencies towards excluding women.
Smokeskin wrote:
For the same reason that physics, computer science and engineering is dominated by men. Science and technology doesn't interest most women.
The reason science and technology doesn't "interest" most women is because they're faced with institutionalized sexism and a prevalent attitude that they shouldn't be present in science and engineering circles. The misogyny and exclusive attitude they face, from pretty much the day they're born, and the same they face when pursuing that education, encourage them to avoid science and engineering education. Everything from the Polytechnique Massacre to Richard Stallman to casual sexual harassment creates a hostile environment that excludes women. Case in point:
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here. I like discussions about science, engineering, different worlds, new alien species, interstellar travel. The thought that these discussions would turn into "muh misogyny" or "muh feelings" isn't a pleasant prospect.
Oh yes. How dare the women complain about being treated badly or excluded. How dare they point out that sci-fi power fantasies are sometimes sexist and tell them they are unwanted. How dare they. Tut tut. Shame on them.
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
There is no patriarchy structure in the west. Average women are more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions than average males in the western world. "Patriarchy" doesn't exist.
This seems to contradict the state of things; if women are more privileged, how come their average income is lower? If they enjoy more protections, how come they're at an increased risk of assault, whether physical verbal or sexual? How come one of the more prevalent debates of the last few years is whether a woman has the right to control her own body? If the patriarchy doesn't exist, why is there a systematic and institutionalized tendency to sacrifice the well-being of women to benefit men?
Smokeskin wrote:
Ok, and then I look at how men in computer games and RPGs are portrayed - wow, they don't seem like regular men, they're much smarter, stronger, and/or more handsome! A lot of them are also really, really stupid villain henchmen, or they're sadistic evil overlords!
The stereotypes men face in computer games and RPGs are nowhere near as damaging or damning as those faced by women. For a more in-depth discussion, I recommend [url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectific... video[/url].
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
What I am against are ideological attempts to change these topics and their content in order to include larger amount of women.
Yeah. Us women are [i]soooooo[/i] annoying when we demand that we be included on equal terms. How dare we intrude upon your fun with a demand to be treated as equals.
Baalbamoth wrote:
also the first premise transhumanism is that bodies are interchangable, I dont think women like that idea on general principal, probably due to bio imperitives... women keep families together, men are more likely to leave offspring, how much worse would it be for the average mom if dad could slip on a new skin and go robo-whoring across the universe whenever he wanted? yeah this is sorta sexist but it kinda fits I think...
First of all, if you're ever thinking "this is sexist but true", then it's probably not true. Secondly, in general arguments from "women are biologically inclined to X, while men are not" are not very good arguments and almost exclusively exists to reinforces stereotypes rather than provide an explanation for something. As such, you should probably do more research into their validity before sprouting off about biotruths.
Smokeskin wrote:
Plain false. Men are signicantly stronger and faster than women. I train MMA and there are some women there and it isn't even close. Women lack the size, body composition, muscle fibers and testosteron to compete where strength and explosive speed is needed.
I think you're overstating the significance and basing your conclusions off narrow observations with little data. The claim that there is, someplace, women who train MMA, who are't as strong as a certain group of men, does nothing to disprove the statement that with proper training, the average women is about equal to the average man with the same level of training.
Smokeskin wrote:
No. Somewhat self destructive though ;) Look up Ladder Theory. Women don't do their friends :)
Ladder theory is bollocks.
Smokeskin wrote:
To be fair, that Martian Ranger has cold adaptation, so she doesn't need to wear much ;) and people only wear armor when they expect to get shot at.
Smokeskin wrote:
I think she's perfect. She's exactly what a redneck with EP cosmetic tech would look like.
These comments and attitudes are the kind that drive women away from RPGs...
jackgraham wrote:
That illo was the result of a creative struggle between us, an artist who wouldn't take direction when we said 'put clothes on her,' and the deadline for Sunward. [b]Just for the record: I fucking hate it.[/b] I like my women fighters in reasonable armor. But since drawing over her torso in brown marker wasn't really an option for a presentable book... there you go. Inadvertent fan servicing.
Respect for Jack Graham: +10 I also hope the artist doesn't mess up more illustrations with pointless objectification. That would be sad. *sadface*
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