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Why is transhumanism such a sausagefest?

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Sun, 2013-04-14 10:30
#1
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Why is transhumanism such a sausagefest?
Well? Anyone?
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Sun, 2013-04-14 10:46
Ravn Ravn's picture
Is it? Elaborate?
Is it? Elaborate?
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Sun, 2013-04-14 11:21
Ravn Ravn's picture
Just to make myself clear (I
Just to make myself clear (I don't want to come off like a douche). I mean it; is it? Because my experience with transhumanism outside EP is extremely limited. Is it more of a sausagefest than other SciFi? In what way? And what is being done about it? Because throwing out that it is, without elaborating, feels a bit weird.
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Sun, 2013-04-14 11:45
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Ravn wrote:Just to make
Ravn wrote:
Just to make myself clear (I don't want to come off like a douche). I mean it; is it? Because my experience with transhumanism outside EP is extremely limited. Is it more of a sausagefest than other SciFi? In what way? And what is being done about it? Because throwing out that it is, without elaborating, feels a bit weird.
Yes, it is. The voices in the conversation are predominantly male. This makes me wonder if there's something about the conversation itself, or how we're having it, that's not drawing in female voices. Worst of all, this might be self-imposed.
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Sun, 2013-04-14 11:52
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Here's a question: can
Here's a question: can transhuman sci-fi claim Ursula LeGuin? I'm thinking of the Ekumen/Hainish novels. If some of her work can be, can the work of any other female SF writers be included? How about female social/economic theorists?
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Sun, 2013-04-14 12:31
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
For the same reason that
For the same reason that physics, computer science and engineering is dominated by men. Science and technology doesn't interest most women.
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Sun, 2013-04-14 12:33
Ravn Ravn's picture
That's sad to hear.
That's sad to hear. Well, is it an inclusive discourse? The reason I'm asking is because it is a subgenre, and subgenres/subcultures seems to turn into sausagefests and being exclusive rather than inclusive. I mean; why is it a lack of female voices in (non-romantic) horror? In RPGs in general? In "extreme" electronic music/metal/crust (name your genre)? How does it look in regards to ethnicity? Is it a white male thing?
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Sun, 2013-04-14 13:12
Ravn Ravn's picture
Smokeskin wrote:For the same
Smokeskin wrote:
For the same reason that physics, computer science and engineering is dominated by men. Science and technology doesn't interest most women.
Do you think that physics, computer science and engineering is sort of a pre-requisite for transhumanism? Isn't there "soft science" parts of it (like sociology, philosopy, anthropology etc)? Because if you say stuff like "Science and technology doesn't interest most women", isn't there a very excluding attitude prevalent? Like that would be sort of a criteria? If so, I strongly disagree. That's too much of a patriarchal structure akin to traditional academia for me to be comfortable with.
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Mon, 2013-04-15 13:25
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ravn wrote:Smokeskin wrote
Ravn wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
For the same reason that physics, computer science and engineering is dominated by men. Science and technology doesn't interest most women.
Do you think that physics, computer science and engineering is sort of a pre-requisite for transhumanism? Isn't there "soft science" parts of it (like sociology, philosopy, anthropology etc)?
If you leave out the hard sciences you just have regular humanism.
Quote:
Because if you say stuff like "Science and technology doesn't interest most women", isn't there a very excluding attitude prevalent? Like that would be sort of a criteria?
It's an observation about the frequency of women interested in hard science. It is a fact. If you from that infer that no women are interested in hard science then you're in serious need of a refresher course on probability theory.
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If so, I strongly disagree. That's too much of a patriarchal structure akin to traditional academia for me to be comfortable with.
The real world cares very little about what you're comfortable with, and you should try to become comfortable with facts, it makes things much easier. If you're worried that some people will discriminate women because they partake little in the hard sciences, the right response is not to hide the facts. People will easily find the relevant statistics and then you'll just have lost your credibility for nothing. Instead, teach them probability theory. That could also cure them of all sorts of other cognitive biases.
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Sun, 2013-04-14 21:39
Ranxerox Ranxerox's picture
jackgraham wrote:Here's a
jackgraham wrote:
Here's a question: can transhuman sci-fi claim Ursula LeGuin? I'm thinking of the Ekumen/Hainish novels. If some of her work can be, can the work of any other female SF writers be included? How about female social/economic theorists?
Well, Ms LeGuin is not dead. Maybe someone should ask her what her opinion of transhumanism is. The same question should probably be asked of C.J. Cherryh (thinking of Cyteen here). Unfortunately, Octavia Butler is no longer around to ask since her Dawn series was all about the transformation of the species though admittedly not through the normal transhumanist path.
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Mon, 2013-04-15 04:21
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
I just remembered reading
I just remembered reading this novel 20 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He,_She_And_It. Definitely some transhuman themes in there (it is partly a love story between a woman and an AI). I remember it as being really good, but I'm not 100% comfortable taking literary advice from my past teenage self ;)
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Mon, 2013-04-15 12:27
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
I don't know a lot of female
I don't know a lot of female authors in RPGs in general, or in science fiction. I think both fields are still outgrowing the social perception of 'this is for guys' (and a lot of ladies tend to lay low to avoid getting INCESSANT flirting/mysogyny, and I can't blame them). Looking at the last gaming con I went to, there were around 13 ladies, of which at least 2 play EP regularly, but about 30 guys, of which 2 play EP regularly (including myself). Or to compare the Eclipse Phase forums (where we have 3,000 users, probably about 20 I know by name, 3 of which I know are female) vs. Dumpshock (13,000 users, probably about 80 I know by name, 4 of which I know are female). Ladies are out there. Some of them don't print "LADY" in their user name, but they're still a minority across all genres.
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Mon, 2013-04-15 14:02
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Meh, I am glad it is
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here. I like discussions about science, engineering, different worlds, new alien species, interstellar travel. The thought that these discussions would turn into "muh misogyny" or "muh feelings" isn't a pleasant prospect. "
Ravn wrote:
That's too much of a patriarchal structure akin to traditional academia for me to be comfortable with.
There is no patriarchy structure in the west. Average women are more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions than average males in the western world. "Patriarchy" doesn't exist.
—
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Mon, 2013-04-15 14:15
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
CS graduates are about 10%
CS graduates are about 10% women in the US, and they drop out of the field at a higher rate than men, even controlling for parenthood. And in my experience women (on average) are more interested in activities/careers that are more directly socially relevant. Men are more likely to be stoked about stuff that has no clear relevance to anything social. Apparently its very easy to get 11 year old girls to learn coding if its a game where you're saving cute little dudes by "coding" spells to help them: http://www.examiner.com/article/a-new-game-lets-you-save-the-world-and-l... So maybe taking the time to draw the social relevance of a subject first would make it more appealing to more women.
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Mon, 2013-04-15 14:21
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Apparently its very easy to get 11 year old girls to learn coding if its a game where you're saving cute little dudes by "coding" spells to help them: http://www.examiner.com/article/a-new-game-lets-you-save-the-world-and-l... So maybe taking the time to draw the social relevance of a subject first would make it more appealing to more women.
I don't really think anyone benefits from tricking someone into a profession where they like the reward but not the process.
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Mon, 2013-04-15 14:30
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Apparently its very easy to get 11 year old girls to learn coding if its a game where you're saving cute little dudes by "coding" spells to help them
What for? Why should we trick them into something they don't want to do?
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Mon, 2013-04-15 21:01
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
On a bet that no one here has
On a bet that no one here has been divorced as often as me, :D, I'll chime in with this; Preface: everything I'm about to say is anecdotal it is my opinion and observation based on my experience. It is absolutely untrue that females are 'not interested' in science or technology they just don't enjoy arguing about it. We, (Americans, Latin Americans, Europeans), are not misogynists but we really are patriarchal. Females are often excluded from our endeavors by the nature of our discourse. The basic premise of modern science is peer review which is accomplished like so; "Hey what about 'this' idea?!" Pff "Naw, dude, that's wrong because of 'this' and 'this' and probably 'this'. (And I can't believe I have to bring that to your attention.)" Women HATE that. They seem to have entirely different emotions in response to that conversation. The second part of the problem is that We do not encourage young females to learn important stuff that has been, for centuries, commonly considered part of the male role; mechanics, contact sports, hard science. It's pretty typical that I've had to teach a grown woman I've known basic automotive and computer maintenance. We do not treat little girls and little boys the same way nor do we expect the same behavior and interests from them. That's natural but we can't develop interests to things we havn't been exposed to. Ask any female if she'd like to live forever but she had to upload to do it. You'll always get an engaging conversation. Why is transhumanism a sausage fest? Because, when's the last time you invited a girl to to a transhuman meetup?
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Mon, 2013-04-15 22:30
sysop sysop's picture
As a woman (oh hey - if you
As a woman (oh hey - if you didn't know - the tech support and web dev on site is of the XX persuasion), this is a conversation not just going on in transhuman realms. Tech as a whole has it too. I consider myself lucky, to be perfectly honest, that I work for a tech company founded by a woman with a 50% female hiring rate as of our last hire. It's unique, and worthwhile, and many many awesome things. But common? Not at all. There's a simple practice I suggest trying over the next week: count how many times your female co-workers are interrupted in conversation vs. the males. It's not *intentional* on anyone's part by any means, but it happens. Imagine having to fight twice as hard just to be heard when you're just as right as anyone else at the table. That's the subtle social pressures we're talking about. It's a loss not just to the female side of the equation, plenty of men are also locked into roles that don't fit. Pressured to perform in ways they don't want to, or denied equal say at the table - or granted more when they shouldn't be. Imagine the loss of potential to humanity when a ok idea spoken in a deep voice, is preferred over a *better* idea in a female register. How many cures, code techniques, and refined designs have been lost this way? It's a cause that should be meaningful to everyone, not just to women. What you're talking about, OneTrikPony, is the concept of 'safe space'. No one operates in a vacuum, no one engages in a conversation without some awareness of who they're talking to, in what realms, and at what cost. And there are costs. It may not be a material one, it may sometimes simply be that tiny additional drag on the interaction that turns it from being fun to being a bit tiring. Sometimes that's all it takes to turn someone away at the door. So for things to proactively do to fix it? Simply being aware and treating the situation with basic empathy goes a long long way. Listen. Be aware. And if something smells fishy - ask about it.
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here.
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
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Tue, 2013-04-16 03:15
Ravn Ravn's picture
Extrasolar Angel wrote:Meh, I
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here. I like discussions about science, engineering, different worlds, new alien species, interstellar travel. The thought that these discussions would turn into "muh misogyny" or "muh feelings" isn't a pleasant prospect. "
Ravn wrote:
That's too much of a patriarchal structure akin to traditional academia for me to be comfortable with.
There is no patriarchy structure in the west. Average women are more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions than average males in the western world. "Patriarchy" doesn't exist.
Privilege Denying Dude meme, is that you?
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Tue, 2013-04-16 05:43
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
sysop wrote:As a woman (oh
sysop wrote:
As a woman (oh hey - if you didn't know - the tech support and web dev on site is of the XX persuasion), this is a conversation not just going on in transhuman realms. Tech as a whole has it too. I consider myself lucky, to be perfectly honest, that I work for a tech company founded by a woman with a 50% female hiring rate as of our last hire. It's unique, and worthwhile, and many many awesome things. But common? Not at all. There's a simple practice I suggest trying over the next week: count how many times your female co-workers are interrupted in conversation vs. the males. It's not *intentional* on anyone's part by any means, but it happens. Imagine having to fight twice as hard just to be heard when you're just as right as anyone else at the table. That's the subtle social pressures we're talking about.
I don't think that's why far fewer women than men take an interest in "hard science" fields. A far greater proportion of women enter more traditional business fields where I'd argue that poorer persuasion skills have a much greater impact (since in hard science it is much easier to demonstrate that your idea is right), and in politics we see women doing extemely well and that's probably the occupation where actually being right matters the least.
Quote:
It's a loss not just to the female side of the equation, plenty of men are also locked into roles that don't fit. Pressured to perform in ways they don't want to, or denied equal say at the table - or granted more when they shouldn't be. Imagine the loss of potential to humanity when a ok idea spoken in a deep voice, is preferred over a *better* idea in a female register. How many cures, code techniques, and refined designs have been lost this way? It's a cause that should be meaningful to everyone, not just to women.
Yeah, it applies to both men and women. Both height and depth of voice is important in social interaction. I try to correct my initial impression of people's suggestions based on both that and how much I like them. Agreeing to something stupid just because it was proposed by a tall guy with a bassy voice that brought cake to the meeting and talked about hunting is just irrational, unprofessional and a sure way to lose money. Beware your cognitive biases.
Quote:
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here.
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Honestly, if it wasn't a "sausagefest" it wouldn't work. There are far more men interested in this sort of stuff than women. That doesn't mean women can't join in, but only people who are actually interested should join in - that goes for both men and women. The only ways to get an equal weight of men and women would be to either change a lot of women or change the concept. As the first option is somewhere between impossible and a generation-spanning project, the only realistic otion is to change the concept. And for those of us who like the concept, that's a very poor option.
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Tue, 2013-04-16 06:04
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:On a bet
OneTrikPony wrote:
On a bet that no one here has been divorced as often as me, :D, I'll chime in with this; Preface: everything I'm about to say is anecdotal it is my opinion and observation based on my experience. It is absolutely untrue that females are 'not interested' in science or technology they just don't enjoy arguing about it.
And they are far less likely to study it or work with it. An anecdotal finding about visitors in my house is that my Illustrated Science magazines gets read practically exclusively by men and the gf's woman's magazines gets read exclusively by the women (unless the cover has something about sex tips on it).
Quote:
We, (Americans, Latin Americans, Europeans), are not misogynists but we really are patriarchal. Females are often excluded from our endeavors by the nature of our discourse. The basic premise of modern science is peer review which is accomplished like so; "Hey what about 'this' idea?!" Pff "Naw, dude, that's wrong because of 'this' and 'this' and probably 'this'. (And I can't believe I have to bring that to your attention.)" Women HATE that. They seem to have entirely different emotions in response to that conversation.
I agree. At the other end of the spectrum, good ideas are also better received and pushed forward by men. They'll go "that's a great idea, you're the man, we'll totally win this bid with that". Creative processes tend to run very well in such environments. Women tend to be much more democratically minded. They tend to either try to reach a consensus or take turns in who gets to be right. "Yeah I know you want that and it sounds good, but we went with your suggestion last time." I think this is certainly one of the areas where our female culture needs to adapt to the requirements of science and business, and not the other way around.
Quote:
The second part of the problem is that We do not encourage young females to learn important stuff that has been, for centuries, commonly considered part of the male role; mechanics, contact sports, hard science. It's pretty typical that I've had to teach a grown woman I've known basic automotive and computer maintenance.
Are you sure there's not a selection effect here? Maybe you pick the sort of women interested in learning it or you scare those away that aren't? I've always been more happy with a division of labor where I do the "technical stuff" and she does more of the classically "female chores". Of course, that could be a selection effect too ;)
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Tue, 2013-04-16 06:34
OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
I respectfully disagree that
I respectfully disagree that it would be necessary to change the concept to make Transhumanism more inviting or interesting to females. Look at it this way. Who would you expect to see *less* at a transhumanist seminar or meetup; A. a female college student or college educated professional with a metro or suburban background and generally socializes within that cohort B. a male, trailer park redneck who is barely highschool educated, who works at menial jobs, with a rural background and generally socializes withing that cohort. A is my impression of a typical transhumanist, except female. B is me. IDK if I can be called a tranhumanist but I actively follow the discussion if not actively participate. I suppose I could say I'd like to be a transhumanist. Everyone is interested in Transhumanism; Digital consciousness, The GRIN tech revolution, especially the intelligence singularity, once they realize it is real and happening now. It's not that women and luddite males don't have a horse in this race it's just that they don't know how to bet. And often no one invited them to the race in the first place. But, weather I ask the girl who lives next door, or the redneck swinging the hammer next to me, they *Definitely* have an opinion on the Myriad Genetics case. The transhumanist sausage fest is a worse problem than too many dicks on the dance floor. The fact is that sooner or later we will all *be* transhuman. We can't afford to marginalize, ignore, or fail to invite the female perspective into the discussion before it happens. Purely patriarchal visions of the future are a big part of what fucked up the last century so bad. The post singularity future needs a woman's touch.
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Tue, 2013-04-16 08:02
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
OneTrikPony wrote:I
OneTrikPony wrote:
I respectfully disagree that it would be necessary to change the concept to make Transhumanism more inviting or interesting to females. Look at it this way. Who would you expect to see *less* at a transhumanist seminar or meetup; A. a female college student or college educated professional with a metro or suburban background and generally socializes within that cohort B. a male, trailer park redneck who is barely highschool educated, who works at menial jobs, with a rural background and generally socializes withing that cohort. A is my impression of a typical transhumanist, except female. B is me. IDK if I can be called a tranhumanist but I actively follow the discussion if not actively participate. I suppose I could say I'd like to be a transhumanist.
Rednecks and women are both uncommon I guess. I don't see how that changes the actual transhumanist male:female ratio. And remember that for the average male college graduates the understanding of transhumanist issues is practically nonexistant.
Quote:
Everyone is interested in Transhumanism; Digital consciousness, The GRIN tech revolution, especially the intelligence singularity, once they realize it is real and happening now. It's not that women and luddite males don't have a horse in this race it's just that they don't know how to bet. And often no one invited them to the race in the first place. But, weather I ask the girl who lives next door, or the redneck swinging the hammer next to me, they *Definitely* have an opinion on the Myriad Genetics case.
I agree. But right now, very few people accept that it is a near future issue. Most people believe that progress is linear at the pace we're moving now, which makes transhumanist issues seem like a far future scenario. Heck, most people seem to have bought into the environmentalism agenda to the point that they think progress will stop! Humans are just wired in a way that goes against grasping things like accelerating change. It takes a significant amount of effort to learn enough rational thinking and science to understand the issues we face. When even many trained scientists think global warming is a serious issue how can we expect the average population to even give transhumanism a thought?
Quote:
The transhumanist sausage fest is a worse problem than too many dicks on the dance floor. The fact is that sooner or later we will all *be* transhuman. We can't afford to marginalize, ignore, or fail to invite the female perspective into the discussion before it happens. Purely patriarchal visions of the future are a big part of what fucked up the last century so bad. The post singularity future needs a woman's touch.
Last century was fucked up? I mean sure we had communism and socialism, but overall the human condition improved by leaps and bounds. I personally think the whole gender focus is irrelevant. We just need people. If some concepts appeal to women and they join in droves, that's great. If the messages that attract the most people gets a higher frequency of men, then that's just how it is. I personally feel that transhumanist issues pose both the greatest threats and the greatest oppurtinies for me, my family and the human race. They're close to the only thing on the horizon to be honest, and I think the sooner people start thinking about it seriously, the better. To put it mildly. A gender balanced approach is totally irrelevant imo. And when I look at the facts, transhumanism attracts mostly men and I fail to see how men, women or transhumanism could change to change that (short of transhumanist issues becoming immediate and apparent of course, at which point everyone will deal with it). Bottom line is, I don't think approaches like "we need more women" or "there should be more women" makes any sense. It is just wishful thinking. Women, not to mention the general population, should be aware of transhumanism but the fact is they're not. Looking at recruitment strategies makes sense, and if someone can come up with an efficient strategy that attracts mostly women, great. Did we overlook something? Because as is, transhumanism has weak female appeal.
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Tue, 2013-04-16 12:38
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
The reason you tend to see
The reason you tend to see less women in transhuman discussion is very likely the same reason you see less of us in the atheist movement and in the hard sciences. We're not encouraged to pursue such ends when young, and you just don't notice us as much. And there's a not-small trend online of women simply not saying they are women and being assumed to be men. There's also effects like the girl-gamer paradox. A guy says "I'm a gamer" and no one doubts him. A woman says the same thing and no one believes her. For my part, I'm a post-genderist. I look forward to the day when the whole concept of a gender binary is eradicated. I can't help but feel (on-topic segue!) that much of Eclipse Phase would be this way. Hard to really have much concern as to whether people are male or female when you can change bodies, many of which are sexless machines or can change their functioning. Also, Furies.
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Tue, 2013-04-16 12:53
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
Ravn wrote:Extrasolar Angel
Ravn wrote:
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here. I like discussions about science, engineering, different worlds, new alien species, interstellar travel. The thought that these discussions would turn into "muh misogyny" or "muh feelings" isn't a pleasant prospect. "
Ravn wrote:
That's too much of a patriarchal structure akin to traditional academia for me to be comfortable with.
There is no patriarchy structure in the west. Average women are more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions than average males in the western world. "Patriarchy" doesn't exist.
Privilege Denying Dude meme, is that you?
Yeah, seriously. Do you want to know why there are fewer women in gaming, in transhumanism, in the hard sciences? Look no further than that attitude. It is thanks to the attitudes that Extrasolar Angel just expressed that we have this disparity. Yes, women in the "west" may not be forced to wear a burqa, but they are still living in a patriarchal-dominated society, where the dominant attitude is very much against "uppity" women. And rather than just making vague assertions backed up by my say-so, I'll give a bit of evidence in response to Extrasolar Angel's assertion regarding "There is no patriarchy structure in the west. Average women are more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions than average males in the western world. "Patriarchy" doesn't exist". (I know that this is going to be decried and ignored by those men who feel threatened by the concept of competent women in those areas, as if somehow having women join their hobbies threatens their masculinity. Bring facts to the table, and then we'll talk). First, let's start with women as objects and rewards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q How fantasy and sci-fi art and book covers sexualize and objectify women: http://www.jimchines.com/2013/01/cover-art-wheres-the-problem/ The "poor young boys who raped a girl getting their lives ruined" http://www.jimchines.com/2013/03/steubenvilles-promising-young-rapists/-... the utter lack of sympathy in the coverage for the young girl whose body was violated by these "poor young boys" (Jim is venting in this post, so avoid if you're sensitive to that sort of thing). Then, let's move on the recent Donkey Kong hack done to replace Mario with the Princess: http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2013/03/awesome-dad-hacks-donkey-kong-so-hi... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeXDNg7scyU The comments are telling--when I last looked, there were whole comment chains about how the man's daughter should be put "in her place", in various disgusting and horrific ways. Oh, and, while we're on the topic of western Patriarchy, need I remind you that we have an entire cadre of lawmakers trying to legislate out of existence the ability of women to decide for themselves what to do with their own bodies? http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/03/anti-woman-march-madness (I invite you to imagine what the outcry would be if there were matching laws regarding what men could do with their bodies and internal organs--heck, imagine what the response would be if there was a law on the books requiring men to get a license before having kids. *beat* Fun image, ain't it? So much for "more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions".) I think that's enough for now. I've got more--lots more--but I don't want to risk running into TL:DR territory. But one last thing: every woman gamer that I've met is an above average gamer--more involved, a better RPer, and more invested than the men in the group. I don't know why, but I'm willing to bet that it has something to do with a filtering mechanism--only the really committed women stick with the hobbies and interests in the face of such rampant misogyny. And, Extrasolar Angel, I have one question (I lied about the one last thing above): Please, tell me exactly how having more people join our hobbies and interests is a bad thing, given that these people have minds, brains, questions, and ideas, as well as a double XX chromosomes? Are you really so determined to keep out other people who have decided for themselves that they are interested in gaming, geekdom and transhumanism solely based on their biology? Are you really willing to exclude half of the human race from discussions of the future--which is their future as well--based solely on that? And people wonder why there aren't more women around here, when attitudes like that exist. Why should they? Last I checked, most people don't enjoy being treated like second class citizens or being told to go away because they "ruin" something.
—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

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Tue, 2013-04-16 14:44
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:
OneTrikPony wrote:
We, (Americans, Latin Americans, Europeans), are not misogynists but we really are patriarchal. Females are often excluded from our endeavors by the nature of our discourse.
Again. There is no patriarchy. Women in modern western society enjoy more privilege and benefits than men ranging from health care, unemployment, and easy treatment by judicial system in case of crimes such as theft or murder.
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The second part of the problem
What problem do you see? Both genders are different, is that a problem? Of course you could change it, but by biology not law.
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We do not encourage young females to learn important stuff that has been, for centuries, commonly considered part of the male role; mechanics, contact sports, hard science.
And neither do we encourage young males to learn cooking or make up. Should that change?
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? Because, when's the last time you invited a girl to to a transhuman meetup?
Never would.From my experience the presence of women in hobbies I liked had negative effect.
sysop wrote:
There's a simple practice I suggest trying over the next week: count how many times your female co-workers are interrupted in conversation vs. the males. It's not *intentional* on anyone's part by any means, but it happens. Imagine having to fight twice as hard just to be heard when you're just as right as anyone else at the table. That's the subtle social pressures we're talking about.
Never seen it, especially as I have worked in my life in female dominated environments. What I DID see were women creating social cliques, isolating the few men in the workplace, giving them more hard work than other women, harassing and bullying them in order create a exclusively female workplace. Combined with sexism and sexual statements that would see any male worker fired on the spot(from ordering men to carry heavy equipment because "you are a man aren't you?" to "I would bite a piece of that new employee" spoken loudly among co-workers)
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Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Since you have proved my point by focusing on social issues and "drama" I would like to thank you as well.
Ravn wrote:
Privilege Denying Dude meme, is that you?
I don't know what the Privilege Denying Dude is honestly? Is it a picture of white male Polish Auschwitz inmate demonstrating his privileged position to non-white Japanese Nazi allies ? A word of explanation-no, I really don't know what the PDD is, having not seen it. But I have seen the absurd concept of male white privilege. Which entertains me, as a Slavic person, quite immensely in its absurdity. I wonder how supporters of this racist concept show privileged position of white male Slavs being exterminated by Nazis allied with non-white Japanese soldiers. Or one can simply point out how even in modern times white Bulgarians or Romanians face more racism and prejudice in United Kingdom than Japanese or South Korean people. So yes, considering the history of people I come from, the concept of white male privilege doesn't hold ground.
OneTrikPony wrote:
It's not that women and luddite males(..) The transhumanist sausage fest is a worse problem than too many dicks on the dance floor. The fact is that sooner or later we will all *be* transhuman. We can't afford to marginalize, ignore, or fail to invite the female perspective into the discussion before it happens
If you are really interested there are two issues feminists have touched upon regarding transhumanism and technological advancemen. The first is development of sex-robots which they see as threat to dominant position of women in sexual relations in human society and want to ban, the second one is possibility of exterminating male gender by artificial selection of embroys until males form less than 25% of society(approximate percentage I remember). Both feminist propositions can be sourced if you wish...
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Purely patriarchal visions of the future are a big part of what fucked up the last century so bad
Says who? And this would require a patriarchal society to exist in the first place, not the matriarchal one that is closer to our current society in which women enjoy privileged position. Also if you wish-enjoy a purely feminist vision of the future:
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"`Why have any men at all?' wrote Sally Miller Gearhart in a 1982 manifesto titled `The Future–If There Is One–Is Female.' Gearhart is an advocate of ovular merging, a process that involves the mating of two eggs, which has been successfully accomplished with mice. Only female offspring are produced. I've always worried that one day women would figure out how to get along without us and they would be able to reproduce unilaterally, like sponges. It's not genocide, exactly. It's more like job attrition, the way employers cut back positions without actually firing anyone. `A 75 per cent female to 25 percent male ratio could be achieved in one generation if one half of a population reproduced heterosexually and one half by ovular merging.' according to Gearhart
“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart Of course this one of many visions of feminist movement in which men are exterminated.
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The post singularity future needs a woman's touch.
I see no reason why it should. If anything post-singularity offers us abandoning gender altogether. Which seems far more interesting idea.
bibliophile20 wrote:
Yeah, seriously. Do you want to know why there are fewer women in gaming, in transhumanism, in the hard sciences? Look no further than that attitude
It might also be connected to sociobiology and our evolution with specialized roles due to different biological functions...
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It is thanks to the attitudes that Extrasolar Angel just expressed that we have this disparity
My my, it seems that in every human society there were people like me creating it....Kind of strange that we never had a place where opponents of people like me, won the argument. Hmm..
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Yes, women in the "west" may not be forced to wear a burqa, but they are still living in a patriarchal-dominated society
Is that why women enjoy more contributions dedicated to them in health care, can avoid the draft, receive lighter penalties than men in courts, live longer, get preferential treatment in custody cases, have dedicated government institutions assisting them with money and institutional support, are at less risk of being fired, and where police automatically protects them in home disputes? Is this the west where misandry is perfectly acceptable attitude while every criticism of a woman can is strictly shunned in public?
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I know that this is going to be decried and ignored by those men who feel threatened by the concept of competent women in those areas, as if somehow having women join their hobbies threatens their masculinity
No it just lessens their value and quality. Small example Evil, patriarchal Mass Effect 1 full of misogyny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_NAoNd4YyY Good, inclusive Mass Effect 3 now with 300% more "muh feelings" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGnbEtube-g
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First, let's start with women as objects and rewards
Why not with men as objects and rewards? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AbP7jVmUFaE/T0h0yHf-nrI/AAAAAAAAA_Q/l05r71iKWa...
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The "poor young boys who raped a girl getting their lives ruined" http://www.jimchines.com/2013/03/steubenvilles-promising-young-rapists/-... the utter lack of sympathy in the coverage for the young girl whose body was violated by these "poor young boys" (Jim is venting in this post, so avoid if you're sensitive to that sort of thing)
And see, this is exactly proving my point. Precisely the reason why I don't want strong inclusion of women in the hobby to happen. Discussions don't go into direction of transhumanism, rpg's, science ficion. They turn into emotional blackmailing and accusations about rape, misogyny and how poor women are. Usually accompanied by demands of having more privilege. Eventually the forum or issue is no longer about its original idea but a misandry filled echo-chamber promoting further advancement of one gender. I have seen that happen on couple of rpg forums.
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Oh, and, while we're on the topic of western Patriarchy, need I remind you that we have an entire cadre of lawmakers trying to legislate out of existence the ability of women to decide for themselves what to do with their own bodies?
Oh, and, while we're on the topic of western Matriarchy, need I remind you that we have an entire cadre of lawmakers trying to legislate out of existence the ability of men to decide for themselves what to do with their own bodies? http://www.dw.de/whos-your-daddy/a-1422595-1 Germany bans secret paternity tests http://www.parentsociety.com/todays-family/same-sex-parents/man-who-dona...
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I invite you to imagine what the outcry would be if there were matching laws regarding what men could do with their bodies and internal organs--heck, imagine what the response would be if there was a law on the books requiring men to get a license before having kids
There are bans on sterilization of men even if they want to undergo the operation.Feminists oppose male contraception pill as well. There is no outrcry.
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I think that's enough for now
Emotional outcry about rape, instead of discussion about transhumanism-check. Promoting idea of Patriarchy existing-check. Posting false information about lack of bans regarding men's reproductive rights-check. Again thank you for proving my point.
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But one last thing: every woman gamer that I've met is an above average gamer--more involved, a better RPer, and more invested than the men in the group
Oh I forgot. Both genders are equal but females are better. Check.
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I don't know why, but I'm willing to bet that it has something to do with a filtering mechanism--only the really committed women stick with the hobbies and interests in the face of such rampant misogyny.
Posts about "rampant misogyny" accompanied by posts that men are worse than women. Check.
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And, Extrasolar Angel, I have one question (I lied about the one last thing above): Please, tell me exactly how having more people join our hobbies and interests is a bad thing
Law of diminishing returns-at certain point your ideas will become shallow and copies of mass pop culture. Something similar happened to video games.
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Are you really so determined to keep out other people who have decided for themselves that they are interested in gaming, geekdom and transhumanism solely based on their biology? Are you really willing to exclude half of the human race from discussions of the future--which is their future as well--based solely on that?
It might surprise you, but I don't have the power to do that. We can look forward to Mass Effect 4 the Dating Game.
—
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Tue, 2013-04-16 15:15
sysop sysop's picture
bibliophile wrote:But one
bibliophile wrote:
But one last thing: every woman gamer that I've met is an above average gamer--more involved, a better RPer, and more invested than the men in the group. I don't know why, but I'm willing to bet that it has something to do with a filtering mechanism--only the really committed women stick with the hobbies and interests in the face of such rampant misogyny.
Statistic backs you on this actually: Given an idealized situation: 4 slots to fill, 10 people. 5 male, 5 female, and each ranked 1 through 5 for skill / competency matching across the gender line. In an ideal situation sans bias you'll get M1, M2, F1, F2 as your best of the group to fill those slots - average skill set: 1.5 (where 1 is ideal). In a biased situation favoring males, you'll get M1, M2, M3, F1 - average skill set: 1.75. Which brings the overall skill set average down (explaining why companies that approach gender parity tend to see better performance over those that don't), and highlighting the skill of the female member as on average higher than selected males. It's not because women are better at things than men on average, it's because of the filtering effect of bias that constructed a skewed environment resulting in the illusion. As sexism is eliminated from the equation, you should begin to see a matching equalization of performance in companies that are close to gender parity vs those that aren't as the selection of employee's begins to reflect genuine skill available in the market. It's a good way to measure progress, and the math works the other way around as well. You could weigh your calculations by percentage in the population to use the same math for PoC for that matter.
—
I fix broken things. If you need something fixed, mention it [url=/forums/suggestions/website-and-forum-suggestions]on the suggestions board[/url]. [color=red]I also sometimes speak as website administrator and/ moderator.[/color]
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Tue, 2013-04-16 15:18
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
As a way of clarification,
As a way of clarification, since there seems to be a misconception: Feminism is not advocating female superioroty. Feminism, noun. The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. (source: google - type 'feminism definition') -or- the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women. Anything else is not feminism, even if it calls itself such. Feminism is about equality.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Tue, 2013-04-16 15:31
sysop sysop's picture
*nods to nizatheth* Exactly.
*nods to nizatheth* Exactly. Frankly if there were male contraceptive pills, I would be cheering. Children generally take two to be created, so if both halves of the equation could help plan that would be spectacular. If men were encouraged to cook for the home, I would be cheering. I work my tail off and I'd love to come home to a shared kitchen where we swap who cooks on what day. If a father playing with his child was less the oddball out on the playground, I would be cheering. The more love and attention our children receive, the better for them. If the better parent were seleced, regardless of gender, I would be cheering. And I'd have at least one friend's child I'd be less worried about. Much of what I see men's rights advocates ranting about? I - *as a feminist* - agree and would like to see fixed. It's a shame there's so much anger, they're not seeing the natural ally in the room.
—
I fix broken things. If you need something fixed, mention it [url=/forums/suggestions/website-and-forum-suggestions]on the suggestions board[/url]. [color=red]I also sometimes speak as website administrator and/ moderator.[/color]
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Tue, 2013-04-16 20:39
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
sysop wrote:Much of what I
sysop wrote:
Much of what I see men's rights advocates ranting about? I - *as a feminist* - agree and would like to see fixed. It's a shame there's so much anger, they're not seeing the natural ally in the room.
Agreed. ^_^ It's unfortunate that there are a few who claim the title of feminists, when they aren't promoting equality. But that's not uncommon, lots of groups claim undeserved names for themselves. Like the United Soviet Socialist Republic... which was neither socialist nor a republic... they were a dictatorship. What we need is for people to start asserting that words be used properly and condemning those who mis-use them, rather than seeing the mis-use and attacking those who are not mis-using it alongside those who are. ...I'm rambling.
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Reapers: Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball. My watch also has a minute hand, millenium hand, and an eon hand.
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Tue, 2013-04-16 21:45
bibliophile20 bibliophile20's picture
*looks over Extrasolar Angel
*looks over Extrasolar Angel's post* *sigh* Okay. I'm not going to even try. That post is one long [url=http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop]Gish Gallop[/url] of mysogeny. I stopped counting strawmen arguments at five, unfounded assertions at six, noted the setup to Godwin's Law and just find it interesting that a person that has a signature regarding meat chrysalises and the shedding thereof has such a strong distaste for the occupants of half of those chrysalises. But to the OP: There's your answer as to why EP seems so male-dominated. Because the women are either scared off or intimidated into not identifying as such because of that attitude.
—

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -Benjamin Franklin

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Wed, 2013-04-17 03:26
Erenthia Erenthia's picture
It's my understanding that
It's my understanding that when you look at the data globally, you find that the more wealth a country has, the more you find its women employed in jobs that are traditionally female. The interpretation I've always heard is that when you're poor you go for what pays the most and when you're comfortable you can choose to do what you want to do. Thus the reason women in the west have moved towards rather than away from traditionally female jobs is because they are more free than they used to be. As far as "encouraging" women to do one thing and not another, I find that to be a rather imperialist attitude. I don't encourage my daughter towards nor away from STEM fields. That is HER decision. I DO tell her that she can do anything she puts her mind to, which I think is the only ethical choice (and if I became aware of someone encouraging her away from something she was interested in, I'd nip that shit in the bud and with prejudice). If there are indeed intrinsic differences between what men enjoy vs what women enjoy (and I don't see any reason to believe there isn't. Non-existence proofs are a bitch) then [i]congruence[/i] between men and women shouldn't be our goal. Equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. As a post-gender egalitarian I see serious problems in both feminism and MRAs. On the one hand, feminists like Christina Hoff Sommers publish serious and interesting work and you have "street level" feminists who are basically just egalitarians who call themselves feminists for solidarity purposes - and they're great to have around even though I wish they'd either 1) boot the "problem feminists" from the fold or 2) just call themselves egalitarians. (If we worry about the psychological effects of "policeman" and "fireman" on young girls why don't we worry about the psychological effects of "Patriarchy" and "Feminism" on young boys - a group we've relegated to insignificance in our society) On the other hand you have feminists who actually run women's studies programs and who do actual lobbying that influence the laws of the US. These are the "problem feminists". They've co-opted feminism from the top and use their more moderate members as a meat shield to protect themselves from scrutiny. For "problem feminists" feminism is a religion. No critique of Patriarchy theory, Rape Culture, or any other core-doctrines of feminism is allowed to be questioned. When I realized that I wasn't allowed to engage in critical thinking about these issues is when I stopped calling myself a feminist and started calling myself an egalitarian. MRAs (and I'm not here referring to anyone from the PUA/Game crowd, manhood academy bullshit or traditionalists but rather activists who are seeking to challenge laws they feel are unjust) have a tendency to engage in "oppression olympics". I suppose some of them feel the need to harp on the damage of traditional gender roles on men because they feel no-one takes it seriously ("Patriarchy hurts men too" lol, yeah right) - and I sympathize with that, but escalating rhetoric doesn't make people listen. It makes them tune out. Even in this thread we have two "street-level" feminists who feel sympathy towards some MRA positions, but can't be brought to the table for discussion because MRA rhetoric is practically designed to be inflammatory. I dream of one-day of living in a society where we don't assume a person is weak because they're a woman, where we don't assume a person is dangerous because they're a man, where we don't assume a person [i]isn't[/i] dangerous because they are a woman, where a woman's value isn't defined by her attractiveness and a man's value isn't determined by his utility with respect to women. I dream of a society where people can just be people, but as long as everyone is screaming and no-one is listening then nothing will change.
—
The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 06:17
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:Ravn
bibliophile20 wrote:
Ravn wrote:
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here. I like discussions about science, engineering, different worlds, new alien species, interstellar travel. The thought that these discussions would turn into "muh misogyny" or "muh feelings" isn't a pleasant prospect. "
Ravn wrote:
That's too much of a patriarchal structure akin to traditional academia for me to be comfortable with.
There is no patriarchy structure in the west. Average women are more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions than average males in the western world. "Patriarchy" doesn't exist.
Privilege Denying Dude meme, is that you?
Yeah, seriously. Do you want to know why there are fewer women in gaming, in transhumanism, in the hard sciences? Look no further than that attitude. It is thanks to the attitudes that Extrasolar Angel just expressed that we have this disparity. Yes, women in the "west" may not be forced to wear a burqa, but they are still living in a patriarchal-dominated society, where the dominant attitude is very much against "uppity" women.
Are you for real? Look at how women are doing in politics, and you tell me the dominant attitude is against women? That's just obviously counter-factual. In business leadership positions in the US, women range from 15-25% depending on what you look at. I'd guess that's close to the ratio of men:women that choose the career track.
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And rather than just making vague assertions backed up by my say-so, I'll give a bit of evidence in response to Extrasolar Angel's assertion regarding "There is no patriarchy structure in the west. Average women are more privileged, enjoy more protection and more support from state institutions than average males in the western world. "Patriarchy" doesn't exist". (I know that this is going to be decried and ignored by those men who feel threatened by the concept of competent women in those areas, as if somehow having women join their hobbies threatens their masculinity. Bring facts to the table, and then we'll talk). First, let's start with women as objects and rewards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q How fantasy and sci-fi art and book covers sexualize and objectify women: http://www.jimchines.com/2013/01/cover-art-wheres-the-problem/
Totally! And with men, it is the same. Tall, muscled, squarejawed heroes or superintelligent scientists, they're idealized versions of real human beings. If you take romantic movies, the men there are totally objectified and feminized. They're either portrayed as assholes that aren't in touch with their feelings until the woman helps him find his center, or they're these unbelievably romantic charismatic guys that are oh so wonderful and good at listening to the woman's needs and desires. There are practically no real men that are like that, willing and able to mould themselves to fit the desires of women, just like in the real world there aren't many skinny yet curvy women who will bat their eyes admiringly at their man for helping them and then rewarding him with porn star level performance on the sheets. Media will cater to the fantasies of their audience. Some cater to male audiences, others to female audiences, and both are equally guilty of presenting unrealistic and idealized stereotypes.
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Then, let's move on the recent Donkey Kong hack done to replace Mario with the Princess: http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2013/03/awesome-dad-hacks-donkey-kong-so-hi... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeXDNg7scyU The comments are telling--when I last looked, there were whole comment chains about how the man's daughter should be put "in her place", in various disgusting and horrific ways.
That's hardly representative of society. Who do you think bothers to comment on something like that? Who says it actually reflects their gender opinion rather than just being a way of yelling abuse at someone you don't like for an entirely different reason? Like in a heated argument people will say "you ginger-haired fool" not because they dislike redheads but because they just want to mess with the guy.
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Oh, and, while we're on the topic of western Patriarchy, need I remind you that we have an entire cadre of lawmakers trying to legislate out of existence the ability of women to decide for themselves what to do with their own bodies? http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/03/anti-woman-march-madness (I invite you to imagine what the outcry would be if there were matching laws regarding what men could do with their bodies and internal organs--heck, imagine what the response would be if there was a law on the books requiring men to get a license before having kids. *beat* Fun image, ain't it?
Oh please. Organizations that push for this like The Republican Party and the Tea Party has plenty of women at the top. They're doing it for religious reasons and applying such oppression only on issues dictated by their religion, not to trample women in general. (And just to be clear, I don't believe that religion justifies anything. They are oppressive.)
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And, Extrasolar Angel, I have one question (I lied about the one last thing above): Please, tell me exactly how having more people join our hobbies and interests is a bad thing, given that these people have minds, brains, questions, and ideas, as well as a double XX chromosomes? Are you really so determined to keep out other people who have decided for themselves that they are interested in gaming, geekdom and transhumanism solely based on their biology? Are you really willing to exclude half of the human race from discussions of the future--which is their future as well--based solely on that? And people wonder why there aren't more women around here, when attitudes like that exist. Why should they? Last I checked, most people don't enjoy being treated like second class citizens or being told to go away because they "ruin" something.
Extrasolar Angel seems to either express himself poorly or actually be biased and apply a generalization to everyone (which is obviously a mistake). For myself, I have had women in both gaming guilds and in an RPG group. I've had no issues with that, it was simply people who shared an interest. But such women are honestly few and far between, and most predominantly male hobbies will have to change considerably to allow for a greater influx of women. I certainly don't want a change to my hobbies and interests that makes them less fun and engaging for me just to cater to more women. If that's Solar's point, I agree totally with him. And I think you "gamer girls" need to understand that when we say "most women don't get us", we're not saying we don't want to play with you.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 06:46
Ravn Ravn's picture
@ Extrasolar Angel
@ Extrasolar Angel If you don't know what the Privilege Denying Dude meme is, I suggest you google it, or we can just sit here and listen to the sound the point makes when it flies over your head. You don't want women around. You don't think there is a patriarchal structure. You think that women are privileged, and have nothing to contribute with (either in transhumanism, RPGs, science...). You can think that. But it doesn't change the reality of the matter.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 06:52
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
bibliophile20 wrote:
bibliophile20 wrote:
But to the OP: There's your answer as to why EP seems so male-dominated. Because the women are either scared off or intimidated into not identifying as such because of that attitude.
That's just BS. I've studied math and comp science and gamed a lot online, and the women who participate are not met with such attitudes. There's some who act awkwardly around women in general and from a lot of others they get a lot of attention because there's so few women around. That may be off putting or annoying, but to say that they're unwanted even when they show an interest is just plain false. If anything it is the opposite.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 06:54
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Erenthia, mostly we reply to
Erenthia, mostly we reply to posts where we disagree with something, but that was a very excellent post.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 07:28
Ravn Ravn's picture
Smokeskin wrote: (...) That's
Smokeskin wrote:
(...) That's just BS. I've studied math and comp science and gamed a lot online, and the women who participate are not met with such attitudes. There's some who act awkwardly around women in general and from a lot of others they get a lot of attention because there's so few women around. (...)
(Quote edited for brevity) Studying something (for example math, computer science etc) is a totally different thing from getting a job or being able to make a career, something you seem to overlook (willingly or not). Do guys get the question if they plan to start a family or get kids in the near future when applying for a job? If they do, it's a miniscule amount compared to the amount of women who do. And I'll be damned if that question doesn't crop up when it's time for promotion as well. And when women get jobs in the sector mentioned how are they met when it comes to attitude? I can tell you from over thirteen years of experience as a systems engineer, network technician and computer technician, that there isn't one instance that they generally are seen as a disruption to ”the 'good' and 'bro-ish' jargon”. Do you think that is helpful in getting women to want the job? And the young female intern getting remarks about her looks and clothes while the guys don't think she hears? Yeah, that is really fertile in getting someone to want to work there. And do us all a favour stop playing the ”awkward nerd” stereotype (and similar trite BS) as a reason for the exclusion and weird behaviour towards women in gaming. Look at computer games and RPGs and see how women are portrayed; cosplays should give a good hint.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 08:57
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
In terms of women in gaming,
In terms of women in gaming, I will speak anecdotally and say that I was the DM for my D&D group through high school and college, and with each group I've had since. So, almost 18 years. And in that time I can safely say I've never had any of the guys I ran for (and they were all guys so far) complain about too much emotional and story-based stuff... in fact they usually asked for more, and for a little less constant violence, as was more my style. I'm getting better at involving such things, but I tend to default to "something tries to kill you" when I run out of ideas. ^_^
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Wed, 2013-04-17 09:10
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ravn wrote:Do guys get the
Ravn wrote:
Do guys get the question if they plan to start a family or get kids in the near future when applying for a job? If they do, it's a miniscule amount compared to the amount of women who do. And I'll be damned if that question doesn't crop up when it's time for promotion as well.
It's a natural question. Where I live men typically take 14 days paternity leave, women take 12 months, 6 months of which are at close to full pay from the employer. I've hired many people, and a woman in her late 20s to mid 30s with no children is worth around 20% less than an equally qualified man or woman with 2 children. It has absolutely nothing to do with sexism, that's just how the numbers work - my job is to maximize profit rather than pay women for staying at home with their children. It is a natural consequence of legislation that forces the maternity leave cost on the company. I wish I could deal with it contractually so I wouldn't have to penalize woman who didn't get children while working for us, but that's unfortunately illegal. I know feminists find this highly provocative, but please do the math. Say there's a 70% chance the woman will have 2 children in the 5 year period she's employed here. Per child she's away 6 months on full pay plus 6 months on her own pay. Then add the costs for replacements, reduced department effectiveness, her being out of the loop while on maternity leave, etc. With that sort of risk it is an expected loss to hire her at the same wage compared to an equally qualified man or a woman with children. I wouldn't hire a chronically ill man with the absentee profile at full pay either. It isn't sexism, it's just good business sense. If anyone should compensate women for the work they put into raising children, it should be her own family or society at large. It certainly shouldn't be the company that chose to employ her.
Quote:
And when women get jobs in the sector mentioned how are they met when it comes to attitude? I can tell you from over thirteen years of experience as a systems engineer, network technician and computer technician, that there isn't one instance that they generally are seen as a disruption to ”the 'good' and 'bro-ish' jargon”.
I went on to work with real estate investment, so I don't have direct experience with that work culture. However, if you're a disruption to the "good and bro-ish" jargon, then that sort of proves my point. If you want to join the culture, don't disrupt it to the extent that you label yourself an outsider. Also, don't overreact. I'm an outspoken atheist to the point that some people are surprised that I'd attend a church wedding, and that obviously means that people avoid certain subjects in my presence. Sure from time to time they're thinking "I wish he wasn't here so we could talk about that", but that's not really discrimination.
Quote:
And the young female intern getting remarks about her looks and clothes while the guys don't think she hears? Yeah, that is really fertile in getting someone to want to work there.
Yeah, because women never talk about how other women or men look. Or that really stupid thing someone said the other day. Or whatever. People look and talk. It happens everywhere. It is normal social interaction. That feminists finds it problematic that men like looking at attractive women seems to highlight that maybe women don't face that many real problems these days.
Quote:
And do us all a favour stop playing the ”awkward nerd” stereotype (and similar trite BS) as a reason for the exclusion and weird behaviour towards women in gaming.
Sorry, but a lot of men really are shy, awkward and/or inappropriate around women. And it doesn't just happen in gaming.
Quote:
Look at computer games and RPGs and see how women are portrayed; cosplays should give a good hint.
Ok, and then I look at how men in computer games and RPGs are portrayed - wow, they don't seem like regular men, they're much smarter, stronger, and/or more handsome! A lot of them are also really, really stupid villain henchmen, or they're sadistic evil overlords! And how are gamers, RPG players, computer programmers and engineers portrayed in popular culture? Try to imagine a role reversal - RPG players are displayed as attractive and going to combat in nothing but armored speedos, and women are displayed as social outcasts. I'm not speaking in favor of media stereotypes, but just pointing out that in a geeks vs. women greater victim contest, geeks win big time.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 12:24
Gantolandon Gantolandon's picture
Quote:However, if you're a
"Smokeskin" wrote:
However, if you're a disruption to the "good and bro-ish" jargon, then that sort of proves my point. If you want to join the culture, don't disrupt it to the extent that you label yourself an outsider. Also, don't overreact. I'm an outspoken atheist to the point that some people are surprised that I'd attend a church wedding, and that obviously means that people avoid certain subjects in my presence. Sure from time to time they're thinking "I wish he wasn't here so we could talk about that", but that's not really discrimination.
Most people will just choose not to join a subculture that openly refuses to accommodate them, especially if their participation is completely voluntary. Regardless of somewhat grandiose statements earlier in this thread, we are a bunch of people who like a particular branch of hard science-fiction stories. It's not like we, or our hobby for that matter, are so awesome that every living being on this planet should feel obliged to hang out with us on our terms. If you think that every newcomer to your hobby, no matter their gender, should play by your rules or GTFO, you are setting yourself up for serious disappointment. You may be able to enforce your views in your workplace, because most people need to work for their living. If you do the same with your interests, though, the best case you can hope fore is to set up a constantly shrinking MRA ghetto most people will ignore.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 11:36
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Funny how one of the best
Funny how one of the best tools to getting more women in the workplace is enforcing required paternity leave for men in the workplace. I'd be okay with that change :) On the topic of transhumanism ... Your 'average' woman (whatever that is) will have a different set of interests than your 'average' man. Hard sci-fi will only interest a subset of each group. However, transhumanism is more than just hard sci-fi; Eclipse Phase includes politics, discoveries, exploration, horror, and so on. Really, there's something there for everyone, and I think this is why, in my experience, I've seen more females playing Eclipse Phase than other sci-fi games like Shadowrun. If the goal is to bring in more X chromosomes, I would argue that it would behoove us to expand out the Eclipse Phase universe in more directions, while continuing to put out quality products. I'd also say that it makes sense to pull in more female authors and content creators. Find people who are already on board with Eclipse Phase; who know the universe and love it, then get them up to producing more of it. This means your brand opens to attracing more women (and men) like that first woman, who share her interests and want to see that part of the world explored. It also means you have examples of women in the industry, so normal female gamers can say 'hey, the name "Sarah" is on the cover of this book as author. If she's advertising herself as a gamer, then I shouldn't feel bad if I'm outed, and if people act like women aren't interested in this game, she's proof that some are.' (a gross simplification, I know, but you get the idea.) What I would NOT do is try to cater to the gender. No one wants Barbie legos. Painting the setting pink is demeaning to women, who are smart enough to participate without compromising the setting, and a betrayal to the current fans of both genders.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 11:39
sysop sysop's picture
@Smokeskin - that's an
@Smokeskin - that's an incredibly generous maternity leave (most companies in my area underpay women *and* fire them when they have a kid). But why doesn't your company (or country) provide fathers equal paternity leave? Have they considered it? If they did - would that change your math?
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Wed, 2013-04-17 11:42
Ravn Ravn's picture
Sweet jeebus
Oh boy Smokeskin, you're missing the point by I would say about 5 AU. In all the cases. If someone is considered being "disruptive" to the groups attitude of 'bro-ishness' because of the simple fact that they are a woman, you can't just say "stop being a woman and we'll get along fine" now can you? /facepalm/ followed by /head-meets-desk/
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Wed, 2013-04-17 12:46
nizkateth nizkateth's picture
Somehow I can't help but
Somehow I can't help but think of: "Anita's irony: Online discussion of sexism or misogyny quickly results in disproportionate displays of sexism and misogyny." http://reagle.org/joseph/pelican/category/internet-rules-and-laws-20.html And a talk that I find quite interesting, especially relevant to this topic. http://www.ted.com/talks/alice_dreger_is_anatomy_destiny.html
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Wed, 2013-04-17 14:14
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Extrasolar Angel wrote:Meh, I
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Meh, I am glad it is sausagefest. I saw video and role playing games ruined by inclusion of women and catering to their needs. Wouldn't want this to happen here. I like discussions about science, engineering, different worlds, new alien species, interstellar travel. The thought that these discussions would turn into "muh misogyny" or "muh feelings" isn't a pleasant prospect.
O.o ... ... ... @-rep --
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Wed, 2013-04-17 14:23
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
sysop wrote:@Smokeskin - that
sysop wrote:
@Smokeskin - that's an incredibly generous maternity leave (most companies in my area underpay women *and* fire them when they have a kid). But why doesn't your company (or country) provide fathers equal paternity leave? Have they considered it? If they did - would that change your math?
That's Denmark for you. Firing a woman you know is pregnant or on maternity is a surefire way to lose a lawsuit. The burden of proof gets reversed so the company has to prove it was a rightful discharge and not because of the upcoming maternity leave. Iirc there's 2 weeks only the father can use, 3 months for the mother, and 9 months they can split as they want. In practice almost everyone lets the mother use all of it. Of course my math would change if the rules or the typical use changed. I also hired a woman in that dangerous age at the wage she asked for because she convinced me she didn't want children. It really is about the expected leave. I hate it when there's that applicant with a great profile - and then she doesn't have kids. I even tend to hire more women than men, they seem to me to ask for less pay than equally qualified men. I'd agree that there's not equal pay (alternatively I'm biased against men).
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Wed, 2013-04-17 14:37
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ravn wrote:Oh boy Smokeskin,
Ravn wrote:
Oh boy Smokeskin, you're missing the point by I would say about 5 AU. In all the cases. If someone is considered being "disruptive" to the groups attitude of 'bro-ishness' because of the simple fact that they are a woman, you can't just say "stop being a woman and we'll get along fine" now can you? /facepalm/ followed by /head-meets-desk/
Maybe you really did work at places where the guys were biased morons. What I see in "male" environments is that some women fit in nicely, most do ok, a few don't. That pattern doesn't strike me as sexist.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 15:06
sysop sysop's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Iirc there's
Smokeskin wrote:
Iirc there's 2 weeks only the father can use, 3 months for the mother, and 9 months they can split as they want. In practice almost everyone lets the mother use all of it. *** I even tend to hire more women than men, they seem to me to ask for less pay than equally qualified men. I'd agree that there's not equal pay (alternatively I'm biased against men).
Asking for less pay, or being unwilling / unable to negotiate up is definitely a contributing part of the problem. And before we all get too deep into this from a personal point of view - the wage gap exists but it's not the same in all fields or pay ranges. Highly skilled can depending on hirer, be nearly equivalent. But that raises the question of what the difference is on low wage jobs. Are women reaching 50% pay rates there to make up for the average on the dollar? And how much more impactful is it when you're already poor? re: Denmark - why do people in practice leave all the free time to the mother? Is it just a habit or social expectation? In which case, yes, we are talking about a sexist situation (perhaps not with ill-intent, but you can still hurt with kindness). Is there much wriggle room allowed you as hirer / HR to encourage more equal use so you'll be in a better position to argue in favor of equal pay in the future? I know my company offers maternal / paternal leave at equal #of hours. Our latest daddy didn't even know he had the option or was encouraged to go home and be with his newborn.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 15:41
Ravn Ravn's picture
Yeah it's similar here in
Yeah it's similar here in Sweden. But the reason it isn't as common for men to take out as much paternity leave as they are entitled to, is the simple fact that the families can't afford the dad to stay at home. Sadly. And to Smokeskin: Some were douchebags, most weren't. I guess it can be attributed to a male dominated environment that fosters some kind of testosterone saturated behaviour. And I resent that a woman should have to "fit into" that for her to have a career there if she wanted to.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 16:31
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
sysop wrote:
sysop wrote:
re: Denmark - why do people in practice leave all the free time to the mother? Is it just a habit or social expectation? In which case, yes, we are talking about a sexist situation (perhaps not with ill-intent, but you can still hurt with kindness).
The biggest factor by far is that the mothers have a much bigger desire to stay at home with the child, and the women tend to have the most say at home so they get their will. I don't buy the "hurting with kindness". Career and pay isn't everything in life. If people find greater happiness taking long leave and then work part time in the early years, they should do that. Rather than limiting people's options I'd much rather look at expanding them. Allow the women who want careers agree to a shorter maternity leave at the time of hiring. Adress the huge problem with our high minimum wages and taxes which means only the rich can afford hiring the help needed to both run a family and an ambitious career. As something close to an anarcho-capitalist this hurtd me to say. But you could place a p/maternity leave tax on all companies and from that tax pool then not just cover all the company's direct costs but compensate them for the inconvenience of having someone on leave. Male dominated industries will hate it of course. A solution I like better is politically much less realistic would be allow contracts that required the employee to compensate the company while on leave, but have the government offer long loans to people on leave.
Quote:
Is there much wriggle room allowed you as hirer / HR to encourage more equal use so you'll be in a better position to argue in favor of equal pay in the future? I know my company offers maternal / paternal leave at equal #of hours. Our latest daddy didn't even know he had the option or was encouraged to go home and be with his newborn.
You can't limit the mother's rights to leave, and typically the father is employed elsewhere. So I don't really see it. Hiring the risky women in temp positions is pretty much the only option, but that has a lot of other downsides and seems a very unsatisfactory solution for all sides.
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Wed, 2013-04-17 16:46
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
nezumi.hebereke wrote:Funny
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Funny how one of the best tools to getting more women in the workplace is enforcing required paternity leave for men in the workplace. I'd be okay with that change :) .
For families it wouldn't really make much difference. I'd dock childless males and females both 10% instead so family income would be the same. And worse it would reduce overall happiness.
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