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CP balance between starting morphs

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Sat, 2012-09-29 13:54

cglasgow

CP balance between starting morphs

Was playing around with #'s the other day, and I realized that starting morph costs are not exactly game balanced. For example, take the Fury morph. For 75 CP, you get...

Quote:
Implants: Basic Biomods, Basic Mesh Inserts, Bioweave Armor (Light), Cortical Stack, Enhanced Vision, Neurachem (Level 1), Toxin Filters, Durability: 50 Wound Threshold: 10 5 COO, +5 REF, +10 SOM, +5 WIL, +5 to one aptitude of the player’s choice

But if you take the Crasher morph at 70 CP, you get...

Quote:
Implants: Basic Biomods, Basic Mesh Inserts, Bioweave Armor (Light), Circadian Regulation, Clean Metabolism, Cortical Stack, Direction Sense, Eidetic Memory, Enhanced Respiration, Enhanced Vision, Grip Pads, Hibernation, Medichines, Oxygen Reserve, Toxin Filters, Vacuum Sealing Aptitude Maximum: 30 Durability: 40 Wound Threshold: 8 +5 COG,+10 SOM, +5 to three other aptitudes of the player’s choice

Drop 5 more CP to pay the 5000 credits for a neurachem, and guess what? In every respect except Wound Threshold/Durability you are fully equal to the Fury... plus you can breathe in space and walk on walls and have twice the endurance and have medichines. But OK, those are still [i]fairly[/i] well balanced against each other, you say? All right... let us start with the Exalt. 30 CP buys you...

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Implants: Basic Biomods, Basic Mesh Inserts, Cortical Stack Aptitude Maximum: 30 Durability: 35 Wound Threshold: 7 +5 COG, +5 to three other aptitudes of the player’s choice

We will then buy...

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Bioweave Armor (Light) 250 cr Circadian Regulation 1000 cr Clean Metabolism 1000 cr Direction Sense 250 cr Eidetic Memory 250 cr Enhanced Respiration 250 cr Enhanced Vision 250 cr Grip Pads 250 cr Hardened Skeleton (+5 DUR, +5 SOM) 5000 cr Hibernation 250 cr Medichines 250 cr Muscle Augmentation (+5 SOM) 5000 cr Neurachem (+1 Speed) 5000 cr Respirocytes (+5 DUR, hold breath for 4 hours) 1000 cr Toxin Filters 1000 cr Vacuum Sealing 5000 cr

For a total of 26000 credits, or 26 cr. We now have stats identical to a Crasher+Fury, except for a Wound Threshold of 45 instead of 50, and we've only spent 56 points. Now let us buy...

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Neural Enhancers (+5 COG) 20000 cr Hyper Linguist 250 cr Math Boost 250 cr

Which costs us 20500 cr, or 21 cp. And now we have everything the Menton morph has that we hadn't already covered earlier. So, for 77 CP total, or 7 points higher than a stock Crasher (and 2 points higher than a stock Fury), I can instead start with a stock Exalt and then augment it up to where its a Crasher-Menton-Fury. I fully realize that doing it this way is just begging for the DM to toast your morph with an antimatter nuke halfway through the first session and then inform you that while stock morphs of any variety are available at low low rates, the list of aftermarket mods you want for your Exalt would take you about a zillion rep/credits and two years, which is why I would have to be sure the DM was heavily bribed with pizza before even dreaming of submitting this to an actual campaign. I'm just saying that I wish the system didn't hose me in the CP [i]quite[/i] so much for choosing a factory-standard morph. Add: Although if I have to go factory-standard morph, I'm totally a Crasher dude. Wow, what a lovely set of stats for an all-around adventurer type... and unlike the Fury morph, it doesn't carry an AR tag saying 'I am in the business of hurting people! Please, hab security, make sure to bump my spime surveillance up a priority notch!' Actually, I'm surprised it hasn't caught on more with the Ultimates. While its not quite as COG-boosted as a Remade, it at least matches in all other categories... plus it has a much higher range of survival environments, [i]and[/i] doesn't blatantly stick out in a crowd. Very Nietzschian (in the Andromeda sense), at least if you're more a Sabra-Jaguar and less of a Drago-Katsov type mind. :)

Sat, 2012-09-29 14:16

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Yup. Implants at morph

Yup. Implants at morph creation are not balanced around their credit->cp cost. They instead use morph creation specific values. I cannot remember these values of hand (Something like 1CP for Low, 3.3 for Moderate, 10 for High, 20 for Expensive, not actually those though). This means that morphs made using the default system (and those made using my custom ones) cost more in CP than you might expect. It is just how the system works. Don't know why.

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Sat, 2012-09-29 16:56

Smokeskin

You could just take the fury

You could just take the fury morph and add all those implants, and then be ahead. Now the synth, that's one strangely priced morph...

Sat, 2012-09-29 18:14

cglasgow

Eh? A Fury morph with all

Eh? A Fury morph with all the Crasher implants added would cost 75 cp +8500 credits (or 8.5 CP), for a total of 83.5 CP. That's more expensive than any build I've listed so far.

Sat, 2012-09-29 18:58

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Smokeskin wrote:You could

Smokeskin wrote:
You could just take the fury morph and add all those implants, and then be ahead. Now the synth, that's one strangely priced morph...

are you saying the Synth is strangely expensive or strangely cheap? Edit:] Synthetic costs get even wierder when you look at the other models. Dragonfly: CP 20, Credit Expensive (minimum 30000) Slitheroid: CP 40, Credit Expensive -- There may be an errata on the credit costs of those morphs I'm looking at 2nd printing. If there's not the credit costs should probably be switched between the two. On the otherhand; Possibly what we perceive as a discrepancy is a Developer judgment call delineating some difference between what a character is likely to have and what's commonly or easily available in the setting.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sun, 2012-09-30 08:51

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

A lot of the CP costs reflect

A lot of the CP costs reflect the availability and background surrounding the morph. In general the game focuses on role-playing, not roll-playing. If you want to 'game the system', you'll have no trouble doing so. The game just isn't designed to be a balanced combat simulator.

Sun, 2012-09-30 15:34

Smokeskin

cglasgow wrote:Eh? A Fury

cglasgow wrote:
Eh? A Fury morph with all the Crasher implants added would cost 75 cp +8500 credits (or 8.5 CP), for a total of 83.5 CP. That's more expensive than any build I've listed so far.

I was talking about the stuff you did with the Exalt. Exalt plus implants might be close to a fury, but fury plus implants is much more powerful.

Mon, 2012-10-01 22:56

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture

OneTrikPony wrote:Possibly

OneTrikPony wrote:
Possibly what we perceive as a discrepancy is a Developer judgment call delineating some difference between what a character is likely to have and what's commonly or easily available in the setting.

There's a word for what you're describing. It's called "economics". I agree that the costs are unreasonable and silly. A flexbot costs 20BP but is worth 30k. Even if 10 years ago the flexbot was a "low class" morph, it's now worth enough to buy an Exalt or 3 splicers. It's like getting made fun of for driving a bulldozer to work until people realize that even a [a href="http://www.machinerytrader.com/list/list.aspx?ETID=1&Manu=CATERPILLAR&md..."] 10yro used bulldozer[/a] is a quarter-million dollar piece of machinery. So IMO the build points for bodies is silly. Just let people use credits to buy morphs and move on. It simplifies things immensely.

—

I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Mon, 2012-10-01 23:28

cglasgow

kigmatzomat wrote:So IMO the

kigmatzomat wrote:
So IMO the build points for bodies is silly. Just let people use credits to buy morphs and move on. It simplifies things immensely.

That would be awesome. More CP for skills and traits!

Tue, 2012-10-02 14:32

#10

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

kigmatzomat wrote:

kigmatzomat wrote:
There's a word for what you're describing. It's called "economics". I agree that the costs are unreasonable and silly. A flexbot costs 20BP but is worth 30k. Even if 10 years ago the flexbot was a "low class" morph, it's now worth enough to buy an Exalt or 3 splicers.

Personally I'm very hesitant to use the words Unreasonable and Silly in reference to the work of these particular developers. I think that Rob, Brian, Jack, Adam and John all put a herculean amount of skull sweat into the core book. If something looks out of whack from a metagame "Rules Engineer" perspective it helps to remember; EP is a setting driven game, Not a rules set with a setting(s) wrapped around it ala' Gurps. Unreasonable isn't a word I'd use. Most things are very well reasoned within the setting. The high cost of many synthetic morphs vs. the cost of splicers and exalts seems to conflict with the setting but that may be because I don't grasp the economics. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Tue, 2012-10-02 22:51

#11

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture

BP/credit disconnect

I think it is unreasonable in comparison to the rest of the text. Matter of fact, it is the coherence and detail in the rest of the text that makes this so obvious, like a nail sticking out of an otherwise perfect piece of furniture. It is not internally consistent with the setting or even other equipment purchases. The rule is easily abused (three players in my group mentioned the issue during the first chargen session). If it's an economics issue, then the credit costs are wrong. I think a flexbot should be pretty pricey. It's a transforming, micro-manipulator equipped, nano-vision, interlocking, flying, demolition & manufacturing morph. It's an actual Constructicon. If they intended that to be for social stigma, it needs to be relative to the starting faction. The costs would make sense if the game assumed one particular political entity with enforced social stigmas and limited the number of starting morphs. It falls apart when you look at the scum barges, anarchists, asteroid miners, and the various brinkers with different social mores towards synthetic bodies. If it's a way to control starting morphs there are much easier ways. It'd be easier to say "no starting morph may cost more than 30k unless required by faction/background", rather than making a Ghost cost 70 build points or underpricing an Futura or flexbot. I love the setting and it is an awesome read but that doesn't mean I'll buy into an appeal to authority. And "rules engineer" was a nickname given to me 10-15 years ago that I use on game boards to help identify my posts. Although the likelihood of there being someone else using a handle that means "there's nothing as good a meat" in a language spoken by a relatively small number of people is admittedly low.

—

I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Wed, 2012-10-03 04:01

#12

Xagroth

While I agree in the point of

While I agree in the point of implants being a little too "broken" at character creation, I tend to dismiss the CP discrepancies into that black box of "morph stat bonuses" and "morph max stat value". As for the implants, a good, quick and dirty house rule is to take into account the character's Rep: there are 5 levels of rarity in the goods section, so every 20 points in a rep allows a certain amount of implants related to that faction, or a numerical value (let's say that every rep at 60+ gives you access to 2 implants or so). Also, egocasting levels the field rather quickly.

Wed, 2012-10-03 13:25

#13

Limited Reagent Limited Reagent's picture

I think Durability boosts and

I think Durability boosts and Aptitude bonuses are reasonably balanced. Its the augments that are out of wack, especially High cost ones. In my game for character creation, we backed out the CP cost of the mods then re-added them in at normal prices (y'know, 5000c or 5 CP for a High cost). So the Fury becomes 55 CP, etc.

Wed, 2012-10-03 23:03

#14

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

Its outta wack.

Its outta wack. I can buy a case morph for 5CP, or start as an Infomorph and buy one on amazon.com for 1000 credits (1 CP) +50 credits for same day delivery. It's even worse with the synth. 30 CP or buy later for 5 CP worth of credits. You can even rent the synth for like 4 credits an hour so why even buy it, right? Especially if you work for Firewall; you [i]know[/i] you're going to be using that "Comprehensive Insurance" package they always try to foist on you for your rent-a-synth. You always do.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Thu, 2012-10-04 16:30

#15

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

I'm certainly not trying to

I'm certainly not trying to make an appeal to authority, just pointing out that not everyone games the way you do. I happen to like the number crunching though. If you decide to type up a more balanced morph selection sheet, (especially with synthmorphs a notch pricier), I'd probably use it, and I'm sure other people would too.

Thu, 2012-10-04 20:44

#16

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

nezumi.hebereke wrote:

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
(especially with synthmorphs a notch pricier)

Just curious; You'd like synthmorphs to cost more credit in game instead of costing less cp at generation? I'd have gone the other way making synths CP cheaper. It confuses me that the setting states that synths are in greater supply than splicers but they cost 3x more at cargen and are just as expensive in game. I'd probably lower the cost of all the synthetic morphs (except the Reaper) in the Core book by 5 CP, Make the Synth morph cost 10/high, and make the Case morph Free/Moderate Also the splicer should probably cost 15CP and there ought to be a price point between High 5000 and Expensive 20000

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Fri, 2012-10-05 10:12

#17

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

What I'd really like is for

What I'd really like is for there to be clear, mechanical advantages to having a biomorph for the average user. Failing that, I'd like to see the mechanics even out the cost gap between the two, so the biomorph isn't both worse AND more expensive.

Wed, 2012-10-10 08:34

#18

Smokeskin

I've been thinking a lot

I've been thinking a lot about that too Nezumi. I think one of the main parts of it is social. They just don't emote as well, which is the basis for the +30 Deception modifier they get. First, I think that should only apply to the extent that hiding your emotions (ie. keeping calm) is the major factor of the deception. Second, for Networking, Persuasion and Deception tests where the major factor to success is relations, sympathy, empathy, signalling emotion, humor, etc., they should get a -10 modifier. The lack of emotes, body language social cues and just means less natural social interaction, even with people who aren't biased. This does pigeonhole face types into biomorphs and pods, but that's the point I guess. Another thing to consider is that people just seem to like having meat bodies. This would probably be best reflected in a negative modifier to stress recovery tests. I think that with the original selection of synthmorphs, it wasn't much of a problem because they had a difficult time getting modifiers like COG, INT and SAV which are the most important stats for most people, but the synthmorphs in the supplements really got them into the biomorph niches.

Wed, 2012-10-10 11:05

#19

Xagroth

About networking penalties

About networking penalties while sleeved inside a synthmorph, well, if you are talking to somebody not in person (use a fork, a videoconference or whatever...) it is more than likely that you will be using some sort of "mask" program to look the way you want, or meet in a simulspace directly, so the rule should be about being physically face to face...

Thu, 2012-10-11 18:20

#20

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

a couple of points.

Smokeskin; Sorry to quibble but it's not a [i]Deception[/i] modifier it's a [b]Kinesics[/b] modifier to [i]Judge Intent[/i]. And really that's not an insignificant difference. Yes it does make it easier for an Ego in a synthetic morph to lie, in exactly the same way it's easier to lie in a text message than to someones face. But aside and in addition to Deception it makes [b]All[/b] face to face communications involving characters sleeved in Synths cumbersome and less effective. This is not a function of bias. The modifier applies just as effectively between two synths as it does between a biomorph and a synth. (It also ought to apply to novacrabs and octomorphs but that's another discussion.) The reason for this is exactly what you say; 50% of present communication and social interaction is carried by non-verbal communication, from body-language and social expression to scent and voice stress. Xagroth; As you say, the rule doesn't need to apply to someone sleeved as an infomorph or simulmorph. It's my own personal adaptation but that is how I'd view social interaction in those situations where the physical morph is not involved.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Fri, 2012-10-12 04:54

#21

Smokeskin

OneTrikPony wrote:Smokeskin;

OneTrikPony wrote:
Smokeskin; Sorry to quibble but it's not a [i]Deception[/i] modifier it's a [b]Kinesics[/b] modifier to [i]Judge Intent[/i]. And really that's not an insignificant difference. Yes it does make it easier for an Ego in a synthetic morph to lie, in exactly the same way it's easier to lie in a text message than to someones face. But aside and in addition to Deception it makes [b]All[/b] face to face communications involving characters sleeved in Synths cumbersome and less effective.

You're right, it is a Kinesics modifier. I got it mixed up with the Emotional Damper bioware (which does have a negative modifier to other social tests, interestingly enough). But the way the rules are written, Kinesics isn't used in Persuasion opposed tests for example, or Networking or Protocol. In general the modifier ends up applying mostly for Deception and Impersonation, doesn't it? I have little problem with it being easier to lie when you don't have an emoting body to give you away - but the flipside is that you don't have an emoting body to make people feel comfortable and at ease, to signal confidence, honesty and sympathy, and that will negatively affect your ability to persuade people.

Fri, 2012-10-19 10:05

#22

Decivre

Smokeskin wrote:I have little

Smokeskin wrote:
I have little problem with it being easier to lie when you don't have an emoting body to give you away - but the flipside is that you don't have an emoting body to make people feel comfortable and at ease, to signal confidence, honesty and sympathy, and that will negatively affect your ability to persuade people.

Definitely, depending on context. Body language would probably be a disadvantage in a negotiation, but would definitely be an advantage when seducing or befriending someone. So the effects of having a synthetic body would likely vary based on the scenario presented.

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Tue, 2013-03-05 12:53

#23

tygertyger tygertyger's picture

I suspect that the Rule of

I suspect that the Rule of Cool is at work here; to wit, that morphs that are "cool" from a metagame perspective (i.e. combat morphs) have had their CP prices inflated relative to morphs that are more exploration- or rp-oriented. That said, pricing is the thing that I've had the most trouble with when designing custom morphs.

—

"If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any."

Tue, 2013-03-05 13:21

#24

tygertyger tygertyger's picture

Decivre wrote:Body language

Decivre wrote:
Body language would probably be a disadvantage in a negotiation, but would definitely be an advantage when seducing or befriending someone. So the effects of having a synthetic body would likely vary based on the scenario presented.

Body language isn't simply a disadvantage in a negotiation, it's a mixed blessing. OT1H, it can give you away when your stance, respiration rate and pupillary response signal your interest in a particular offer or when your blink response indicates that you're lying. OTOH, no kinesic signals means that you can't fake interest in something you don't want in order to throw someone off the scent of what you're really after. Nor can you fake the blink response of lying to cover the fact that you're telling the truth. Shame on you if you can't think of scenarios in which stuff like this would be useful. };)

—

"If your principles don't inconvenience you from time to time, you don't really have any."

Tue, 2013-03-05 13:45

#25

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

tygertyger wrote:I suspect

tygertyger wrote:
I suspect that the Rule of Cool is at work here; to wit, that morphs that are "cool" from a metagame perspective (i.e. combat morphs) have had their CP prices inflated relative to morphs that are more exploration- or rp-oriented. That said, pricing is the thing that I've had the most trouble with when designing custom morphs.

They aren't. Biomorphs and Pods are made using hard numbers, and Synthmorphs are made with hard numbers and a few softer things that don't make any sense at all. There are a few things that don't seem to make sense (Movement rates, for example), but it generally all adds up. http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?470503-Eclipse-Phase-Custom-BioMorph... That thread is a link to the original BioMorph creation rules that I did when the game first released. I seem to remember that they can recreate all the baseline BioMorphs absolutely, and things like the Octomorph fairly well. http://www.firewall-darkcast.com/fanzine/custom-morph-design-rules That article is the one I did for Synthmorphs and Pods. I know that it is fairly good, but has some kinks due to the way that the numbers actually work for Synthmorphs. Because of those kinks it also doesn't do BioMorphs perfectly. But good enough that they will be close to balanced.

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Wed, 2013-03-06 19:44

#26

kindalas

Another factor to consider is

Another factor to consider is that by spending 75 CP to have a Fury morph you are also getting the ability to walk through a "TSA style" scanner without having to go in for questioning. It is the same reason why a Ferarri driver is never given crap from the cops for having a 600 HP motor. But a 600 HP 92 Honda Civic will have a 50/50 chance of being impounded. The Ferrari has a legitimate reason for stupid power, a civic doesn't. So in the same way a Fury gets to be an ok combat beast but a kill-botted out Crasher attracts all kinds of red flags.

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Sun, 2013-03-10 13:24

#27

Solar

kigmatzomat wrote:So IMO the

kigmatzomat wrote:
So IMO the build points for bodies is silly. Just let people use credits to buy morphs and move on. It simplifies things immensely.

This is just what I do. Buy your morphs with credits at the suggested price, and they make a lot more sense

Mon, 2013-03-11 21:06

#28

Justin Alexander Justin Alexander's picture

If you remove the CP cost for

If you remove the CP cost for starting morphs (and have them just "buy their bodies") would you recommend reducing the CP budget? Or is the difference so minor as to not matter that much?

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The Alexandrian