The more I hear about it, the more I read about it, the more I talk about it, the more I hate Firewall. I am convinced they are true bad guys in this setting. I like bad guys, I just hate bad guys that go the Knight Templar route. (This is from someone who finds the TITANS to be tragically sympathetic) For my own amusement I'm wondering what the best way to destroy them would be. Death is not necessary, the important thing is that firewall ceases to exist and the people running it lose their ability to use it.
I'm thinking the best weapon is information. It has to stay a secret for it's own protection, if it were opened and exposed it wouldn't be able to survive. It's cellular nature is a problem though. Not enough of their private information could be exposed at one time due to it.
Also what faction would be the best able to take advantage of it. The Exhumans maybe? Or are they too tapped out combating the Ultimates?
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Destroying Firewall
Mon, 2012-12-24 07:46
#1
Pale_Enchantress
Destroying Firewall
Mon, 2012-12-24 08:53
#2
Lilith
I question how effectively
I question how effectively you could manage something like that without a massive amount of help from the inside. You wouldn't need just sentinels, you'd need an entire part of the upper echelon to turn in order to effectively dismantle the org beyond its means to just pull itself back together. That, or just convince the Prometheans that the org isn't needed anymore, I suppose, but good luck with that.
Anyway, Exhumans? Pfft, whatever. If anyone is in a position to attempt such a thing, it's PC Oversight and Project Ozma. Considering they're the only ones with a similar (if not superior) level of resources, and (somewhat) similar mission goals, I wouldn't count on anyone else to even bother (assuming they were even aware of Firewall in the first place).
And TITANs as tragically sympathetic? I think your exhuman experimentation has made you assign traits to the TITANs that never existed.
Mon, 2012-12-24 09:11
#3
Pale_Enchantress
I knew my idea was probably
I knew my idea was probably not a workable one. It's just always a better way to converse if you offer an idea too. Creates more to talk about. It's all Hypothetical anyway.
As interesting as the Exhumans are they certainly don't have vast resources. I know nearly nothing about PC Oversight, and while I know what Project Ozma is I don't know whats funding them. More to look up I suppose. EP is a very fun setting.
The TITANS though are very sympathetic. They were first affected by the self destructive violence of transhumanity at the time, and then they got the way they think warped by a virus they didn't know about. They could have turned out very differently if those factors hadn't been in play.
It surprises me that the Promethians can actually use transhumanity still. If they still have their self evolving capability then wouldn't they be so exponentially far ahead of transhumanity that the whole race is just a swarm of insects to them? Maybe the humans aren't quite so badly off if they can still maintain relevance.
Mon, 2012-12-24 09:11
#4
Pale_Enchantress
Oh AND HIIIIII!
Oh AND HIIIIII!
Mon, 2012-12-24 09:26
#5
Lilith
Goddamnit.
Goddamnit.
Mon, 2012-12-24 12:25
#6
Quincey Forder
for me Firewall = Cerberus
a bunch of self-rightous human centric fanatical assholes, willing to mass murder entire habs rather than excise the infected elements, or threating all seed AI as demons that need to be destroyed
also for me the TITANs are like the Geth, misunderstood AIs with their own factions (Promotheans)
so that makes Firewall in best case scenario damn hypocrites, in worst Camarilla style puppets
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Mon, 2012-12-24 13:31
#7
Fion Ravenwater
My current character hates
My current character hates Firewall (or will, once he gets a better look at them) because he believes that their methods are unnecessarily brutal, their agents often mistreated and/or left high and dry and generally that they're doing what has to be done but in a way that could be done much better.
I've actually been thinking about ways to go about it, discounting the Prometheans because he doesn't know they exist. The way in would be through the sentinels. Find a way to sneak memory locks (from Panopticon) into sentinels' morphs and find times to activate them and see if they'll side with you against their proxies. Get what information you can and cover your tracks until you can start getting at the proxies, at which point you'll have to replace or psychosurgery them into working with you. You'll probably never reach the high-ups but if you've got control of or are working with enough the proxies and sentinels you can seriously influence how Firewall operates.
Mon, 2012-12-24 16:10
#8
Pale_Enchantress
Fion your character definably
Fion your character definably has a point. Though I'm not even sure they are doing something that has to be done. It depends really on what exactly they think they are doing. When the TITANS first attacked they were basically babies, if they came back to finish off transhumanity it wouldn't even be a challenge for them. The same thing applies if the Exergents actually care enough to put effort into destroying transhumanity. If they are trying to prepare for either event they are wasting their time.
Though maybe they are just trying to police what they can, as most of the missions that involve the PC's will be based on. In this case, at best, they are dangerous vigilantes and at worst they are terrorists. This is really the most likely methodology to the group I think.
Or it could just be the Promethians and Proxies way of making sure they stay on top. Depending on the Promethian's actual origins the TITANS could have been a rude awakening. Not because of their genocide against transhumanity but because suddenly there was something out there equal to them.
A big factor in my view of Firewall could be more campaign than setting based. I'm actually going to be playing EP soon (Yay im so excited!). The ST has a fairly dark take on Firewall. When they want to recruit you they track down and take all your backups. Then they offer you the choice: You do whatever they say without pay or they permakill you. If one of their operatives dies and they find them useful they will resleeve them. If not then they leave them dead. I believe this method is a campaign thing, but I could just not have read about it. There is a lot I haven't read in the books yet.
It's not the first RP I've done on the premise "Everyone starts as slaves of the detestable powers that be." but it really does help confirm my feelings about Firewall.
Mon, 2012-12-24 17:17
#9
Fion Ravenwater
I don't think Firewall is
I don't think Firewall is usually quite that extreme; I'd think they usually recruit willing sentinels, but once you're in you're in for life, and they are willing to do whatever they want to you to get what they want. In more than one of the IC pieces in the rulebooks sentinels mention that often Firewall will resleeve you from a compliant backup if you start moving in directions they don't like, or learn too much about exsurgents or such.
Yes, my character has strong opinions on the matter of how Firewall treats its people, being a mafioso.
Mon, 2012-12-24 17:53
#10
Pale_Enchantress
Pragmatically my characters
Pragmatically my characters aren't very nice people so firewalls way of treating their operatives is still probably better than they deserve.
They seem pretty solidly anti-heroes. They could be very villainous though since not a lot is known about the things they are combating against. If they fight things that are very real and serious threats to transhumanity than they can say the ends justify the means, even if their average operative hates them. If they are jumping at shadows or taking the law into their own hands when it doesn't have to be than they are a terrorist group. My ST is pretty Pro-Firewall so I can be pretty sure that in the campaign I'm in they are doing what has to be done one way or another.
I'm stating to wonder if I'm not just panicking to a somewhat dramatized description. He might have been trying to say "They have ways of keeping lose cannons in line" but instead it came off as "YOU ARE POWERLESS AGAINST THE OVERMIND!" Maybe he is just trying to keep the horror feeling of the setting up by making the de-facto good guys of the setting (at least from what I've read firewall seemed fairly easy to get along with) rather tyrannical. By all accounts he is a very fun ST to work with so I'm looking forward to the game.
There is still a lot of shady things about Firewall and not enough information to be sure that they aren't abusing their power.
Mon, 2012-12-24 18:05
#11
Lorsa
I don't think Firewall is
I don't think Firewall is painted out to be bad guys at all. And if you look into the organisations they come from they seem rather friendly-like. I know appearances can be decieving but if you assume that has to be so then that says more about you than it does about Firewall.
I don't think Firewall really HAS any power to abuse and that is what I like about them. They're sort of a fringe group trying to help humanity against overwheliming odds (most of them within transhumanity itself). Sure they have resources but only things their members bring in. They don't collect taxes and are linked to any goverment, they have only themselves to rely on. In fact, I think that makes them more heroes than anything, that they do try their best despite limited reseources.
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Mon, 2012-12-24 19:41
#12
Lilith
Firewall, to me, is a very
Firewall, to me, is a very heroic organization in goal, though the nature of the challenges they face necessitates the use of occasionally non-heroic measures. That said, I disagree vehemently with the view that they are in any way truly villainous, just because of the existence of far worse organizations (I'm looking at you, Nine Lives).
Firewall's biggest strength is also its biggest obstacle: the fact that it is an illegal secret conspiracy. I don't doubt for a moment that there are many who would willingly join Firewall for that same noble goal of protecting transhumanity from the myriad dangers posed to its continued existence. That said, when you're part of a secret conspiracy, you can't exactly have an open recruitment on a bulletin board:
SEEKING: NEW MEMBERS FOR ILLEGAL CONSPIRACY. WORK INVOLVES CONSTANT THREAT OF DANGER, INSANITY, AND DEATH. MUST BE WILLING TO ACCEPT OCCASIONALLY WORKING WITH NIGHTMARISH HORRORS THE LIKES OF WHICH MOST PEOPLE CANNOT COMPREHEND. MINIMAL PAY. FREE BACKUPS. INQUIRE WITHIN.
Naturally, this presents some difficulty, especially in the light of certain factions (The PC, the Jovians, even the Titanian Commonwealth to an extent) that would rather see Firewall brought low, and are either unaware of or uncaring towards the threats Firewall deals with. So yes, Firewall resorts to press-ganging and/or blackmail to forcibly recruit members that it believes will be an asset. Still, part of the induction process involves determining how loyal a new sentinel will be to Firewall, versus the threat posed. Firewall doesn't ask nor needs unquestioning loyalty, especially given the fact that sentinels must be, by nature, largely self-sufficient. In the end, though, the ability of the org to continue its operations unimpeded means they occasionally need to resort to extreme measures to maintain that security. I don't think they'd resort to outright egokilling except in the most extreme circumstances--that could result in questions from people that notice the ego in question has gone missing, and it's easier just to kill a person in a manner where they'll end up being restored from backup with no memory of Firewall at all. By the same token, I don't think Firewall readily engages in mass murder or the destruction of habitats as often as some people make out--such things are extreme risks for OpSec, and again, would only be used in the most extreme circumstances.
Still, I agree with one thing: once you're in Firewall, you're in for life.
Mon, 2012-12-24 20:43
#13
Pale_Enchantress
Well thank you Lilith that
Well thank you Lilith that puts it in perspective. They have some harsh methods of recruitment but they are rather freeform once you're in.
Mon, 2012-12-24 23:35
#14
Fion Ravenwater
I don't agree with Lorsa and
I don't agree with Lorsa and Lilith here.
Lorsa: As seen in [I]Lack[/I], the proxies have a ton of power over the sentinels and this is often abused.
Lilith: From what I've read Firewall actually seems to recruit from willing candidates who want to fight for transhumanity. Later on they realize that they don't have the power in their relationship with Firewall and panic, then Firewall uses previous backups to keep the agents docile.
This quote from [I]Lack[/I] sums up what I have to say about Firewall's HR:
Mon, 2012-12-24 23:44
#15
Lilith
I don't see how that
I don't see how that discounts anything I've said.
Tue, 2012-12-25 10:48
#16
Gantolandon
The thing is, every other
The thing is, every other organization who provides backups for their members have the same sort of power over its members - in case of problems with a newer copy, they can always revert to the earlier, still loyal one. If your backed up copies are also your assets, I would find it hard to justify choosing to restore a worthless one (and provide it with free morph!) over a useful one. Seriously, I find even anarchist collectives having some problems with this decision - though, they will more likely choose not to restore such a person at all.
It's so natural for almost every organization imaginable that I find it hard to even consider immoral. This is why it's an extremely bad idea to let your employer back you up, be it a hypercorp, criminal organization, state or a secret conspiracy. Unfortunately, for an organization such as Firewall, having this kind of power over its members its a must, given that sentinels are frequently corrupted with exsurgent virus. So yeah, if that bothers you, you most probably shouldn't join them at all.
Their methods may seem extreme, but they are fighting entities that are several magnitudes worse and already eradicated 90% of humanity.
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Tue, 2012-12-25 12:58
#17
Pale_Enchantress
One can always have someone
One can always have someone who isn't their employer back them up as well. Spread it out a bit in case one of them decides he would rather not restore you.
Gantolandon your point about how no organization would restore someone and provide a free morph if it didn't benefit them is a very good one. It gets a bit less true though when you realize any death someone experiences is usually going to be because they were doing something for firewall in the first place.
Fion: You know I share some of your feelings on this, but I think we may be over critical. I'm thinking that the really bad things they do are used only in rare circumstances where other means have already failed.
Memory editing is a very negative thing but using it on their operatives does keep them from having to use intimidation and constant monitoring to keep secrets. A lot depends on how quick they are to resort to it.
Tue, 2012-12-25 17:17
#18
Lorsa
Fion Ravenwater wrote:I don't
Yes, Firewall does have power over Firewall but I don't think that is what was meant in this case. They have internal power but they have external power the same way a goverment does. Of course they can abuse their power over their people, but can they 'abuse their power' in the same manner FBI can (not saying they do)? Probably not.
And yes, Lack makes for a very good story but if you run your campaign like that your players are going to get very upset and leave Firewall or start trying their best to work against them or whatever. People usually don't respond very well to bullying and players in a roleplaying group usually a lot less, especially as it will be seen as the gamemaster bullying them. And if they can't leave Firewall due to enforced power they will leave the group. Yes I am sure it does happen that they might get resleeved without being told what happened. But playing Firewall as an organisation of bullies probably isn't going to be fun, at least not most players I know.
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Tue, 2012-12-25 17:30
#19
Lilith
Lorsa, I think you're very
Lorsa, I think you're very much painting a worst-case-scenario there, and it's a circumstantial case to boot.
EP is a roleplaying game, and while it's not the only role they can choose to play, if players choose to play Firewall sentinels, then they should do so with the understanding that things aren't going to be all sunshine and cupcakes. For the same token, if you get players in a Delta Green campaign that are going to get upset when DG has them executed for making a mission goes tits-up, then they're playing the wrong game.
Maybe it's just my love of Call of Cthulhu and other systems that are notorious for not doing player characters any favors, but I love Firewall as it is. It's a very grey organization, with good and bad aspects. On the one hand, they allow sentinels an enormous amount of freedom in approaching missions as they see fit. On the other hand, they're not above using them, getting them killed, and then having them resleeved with no knowledge of what happened. When you have the weight of transhumanity's existence on your shoulders, you have to make tough calls sometimes. If a group of players can't handle that kind of pressure, then they're probably better off playing a more simple black-and-white kind of RPG like D&D.
Also, considering that Firewall has the ability to call in teams that are fully capable of [i]nuking[/i] entire habitats, I think it's safe to say they have a not-inconsiderable amount of power that can be used to external effects. Just food for thought.
Tue, 2012-12-25 18:22
#20
Gantolandon
Pale_Enchantress wrote:
It could be argued, however, that without them doing something for the Firewall, there could be no one in the entire solar system that could restore them, after all the transhumanity is wiped out. It's hard to argue about morality with an organization who claims to be the only thing holding the future equivalent of Cthulhu at bay.
Of course, such tactics makes sense only if the sentinel in question joined willingly and had a change of heart, instead of being coerced to become one. Logically, they need their people to be motivated as long, as possible. Moreover, when choosing to revert to an earlier backup, they sacrifice their experience for motivation, which can very quickly vanish anyway when they realize their copies has been ditched. I don't suppose they engage in something right that every time their sentinel starts dropping hints about retiring, finding themselves a spouse and buying an aerostat on Venus.
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Wed, 2012-12-26 01:50
#21
Pale_Enchantress
Lilith wrote:Lorsa, I think
The funny thing is I hate firewall and I don't play hero types. I think you finally hit it when you bring up Call of Cthulhu. I hated that game. It made me feel depressed and powerless. Even VtM as much as I adore the setting I simply can't play games that aren't PC's as elders. It's just too oppressive and depressing otherwise. The game made me feel like my ST was my enemy and that the other players were worthless tools. Even though their characters were victims too I hated them and wanted them all to suffer for their inability to help themselves and help me. The feeling tended to set the tone for the game.
I enjoy using abusive backgrounds to create a reason about why a character is so messed up mentally. Its sometimes fun to glamorize an abusive relationship because it just feels like a fantasy thing. I know what it's like to be abused and controlled. It's miserable and trying to immersible RP someone who is going through exactly that is just torturous. I don't understand the appeal. Im now sure that has to do with why I hate firewall. It's not because they are extremely evil but because metagame they can create a feeling of fear and powerlessness in the PC's. When something hurts me I want to hurt them back.
At least I'm, understanding what my problem with Firewall is right now. I think Lorsa's explanation helps put it into perspective.
I also don't buy the "Protectors of Transhumanity" defense. That's mostly because I don't have any like or sympathy for vigilantes. I know that they do fight some legitimate threats and that they most likely have saved transhhumanity from some potential problems. They don't act in any official capacity though. They are a group that decided to protect transhumanity whether transhumanity wants them or not. They are more like a gang operation that makes sure the neighborhood works under their laws than the police trying to keep the streets clean.
Wed, 2012-12-26 04:23
#22
Fion Ravenwater
Lilith wrote:Maybe it's just
Yes, I fully understand that Firewall is what's standing in the way of the myriad x-threats and that means that they have to make tough decisions. It's reasonable that when a hab is totally unsaveable, it should be nuked to make sure that it doesn't spread. My point (both IC and OOC) is that the way they treat their sentinels is, in the long run, detrimental to the organization. Firewall's treatment of Sava in [I]Lack[/I] was so bad he was willing to sell information they really wanted to Ozma.
By joining Firewall you are submitting yourself to being sent out into incredibly dangerous situations with minimal support and not necessarily being expected to survive. However, you are also trusting Firewall to work in your mutual best interests, especially with something as basic and important as being restored from a backup.
Fion, being a mafioso, has a number of ideas on how Firewall could work that would be much more beneficial to the org's continued success. He's willing to go to lengths and replace the vast majority of the proxy net and set up a dedicated recruiting system as he believes Firewall (or a group like it) is essential to transhumanity's survival, he just thinks they're going about it stupidly. Unless he gets a good opportunity they'll have to wait until after he's killed Nine Lives though.
Wed, 2012-12-26 07:49
#23
Lilith
I don't think you read the
I don't think you read the same story I did.
Sava bitched about how Firewall treats him, yes. I imagine most sentinels probably do, just like any person complains about their job. My own character I play routinely has issues with how Firewall treats him.
That said, Sava's interest in Ozma was due to his interest in tracking down his lover, Rati. Ozma had made a deal to give him information regarding her whereabouts in exchange for the information he'd been sent to Earth to retrieve. When they refused to immediately give it to him, instead telling him to "trust" that they would provide it, he chose to ignore them and carry out his mission. At no point does it appear that Jesper, Sava's proxy, knows anything about Rati, or that she even exists.
I imagine this sort of thing happens frequently to sentinels. The difficulty of having to put everything aside for a greater cause conflicting with one's own personal desires is what makes for interesting characters and drama, in my opinion. Firewall doesn't care about a sentinel's personal life. The core book even makes a point of explaining how sentinels are themselves responsible for explaining their absence from jobs (and I'd imagine friends and loved ones) while on Firewall business. So if someone has a personal problem (whether it's just stress or the kidnapping of a loved one), unless that problem turns into an x-threat, it's not Firewall's concern how a sentinel deals with that problem.
I don't really see why people are having such a problem imagining why sentinels would willingly put up with this sort of work. To me, it's not any different than being a deep cover agent for the CIA, or any other espionage agency. The org you work for does its best to take care of you, but they can only "care" so much--there comes a certain point where it's up to you, and if you choose to make yourself into a problem, the agency has no issues with eliminating you. I don't really see Firewall treating their sentinels any worse than the pre-Fall CIA or such, and I feel pretty confident they probably treat them a lot better than Oversight or Ozma do their own.
As regards Fion, I somehow doubt that Lilith is going to trust a criminal to "improve" the function of Firewall to his (moral and ethical) satisfaction. All he wants are more open dealings between proxies and sentinels, instead of this infuriating "need-to-know" bullshit. But then Lilith's an anarchist, so go fig.
Wed, 2012-12-26 11:24
#24
Gantolandon
Pale_Enchantress wrote:I also
Who would decide if transhumanity wants them or not, then? Should it look like some kind of interplanetary referendum where everyone (including Jovians, Ultimates and exhumans) decides if they want Firewall to function or not? Or maybe some sort of United Nations should established them instead and, again, everyone will just obey?
It's a bit weird to complain about Firewall lacking any official capacity, as every organization in the world is just as illegitimate. The anarchists and other members of the Autonomist Alliance were rebels even before the Fall. Planetary Consortium is a shady cartel establishing a sham of democracy (and is implied to kill off the Earth politicians who managed to escape from the Fall). Many of these entities are either terribly undemocratic even by our standard, or hate the idea of a central government telling them what to do. It wouldn't be possible to establish a "proper" organization dealing with x-threats before unifying the entire solar system under one government. Good luck with that.
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Wed, 2012-12-26 12:09
#25
Pale_Enchantress
Gantolandon wrote:
I it really boils down to that I don't see the protection of transhumanity as a great and worthy cause. I know that probably sounds strange. I just know if someone press ganged me into being their slave, if they were protecting everyone who lives, I would probably just hope everyone who lives stopped living.
Pre-fall CIA probably treated their operatives a lot better then it sounds like firewall treats theirs. First off Pre-Fall CIA was a job on it's own merit. People who joined it were already working for the government and most of them probably had the option to decline. CIA agents had no reason to want to be a problem for the CIA because it wasn't a problem for them. It had the same sort of power over it's agents but much less reason they would ever need to use it. Their agents got paid well, and likely got vacation time. (Of course Firewall may give vacations too). It's even easier to deal with because the agents family knows "She has a job she can't talk about". They didn't have another "this is my real job" that the CIA expected them to be able to juggle on top of their CIA obligation.
Firewall forces their agents to join them, gives them no compensation for jobs done, puts them into life threatening situations, and tells them "If you cant do what you used to do because of us that isn't our problem."
Sure Ozma is probably even worst but the PC's aren't expected to work for Ozma. Ozma is not an organization that you're supposed to be IC and OOCly sympathetic with while they make you ICly and OOCly feel like shit. You are expected to fight against Ozma if they try to attack you. You cannot fight firewall. You serve them or they kill you: no saving throw allowed. If you at one time served willingly and then stopped they may just rewrite your memories. Either way you can fight against Ozma, win or lose there is freedom there.
As I mentioned in my last post there is definably a degree of metagame logic to why firewall is reviled. At first I didn't realize it. I just knew I thought they were evil, but didn't know why I hated them when there are far worst organizations. I have a feeling it's similar with Firion. Being the mindslaves of nine-lives cartel would be far more oppressive but if they came after us we could fight them, and if we lose it's "Game over". Firewall is there to say "You live with us now. You can do nothing about it and if you don't straighten your damn face up foster dad is going to get angry and choke you out again."
Wed, 2012-12-26 15:50
#26
Lilith
Then you're probably not
Then you're probably not going to like me or my games very much.
Also, I think you vastly underestimate how important resleeving insurance is. The fact that Firewall guarantees you backups and resleeving (regardless of the conditions they might apply) is a pretty big deal to anyone interested in living more than once.
Wed, 2012-12-26 17:35
#27
Fion Ravenwater
Pale_Enchantress wrote:As I
I'm not really thinking about the metagame concerns here. Primarily because I kind of like the idea of working for an abusive organization (at least for a short while), and also because people know that when I'm pushed, I push back hard. I once built a medieval thermobaric bomb and used it to drop an entire mountain on top of a dragon because it tried to push me around. I wouldn't expect my proxy to last more than a few sessions before I have a talk with him.
This is why I always shell out for Emergency Farcasters. Fion works freelance, so he has enough cash and favours on hand to buy himself another Ghost or Fury if it turns out he needs it and he doesn't trust anyone with his ego.
That's definitely not the vibe I got from him; my opinions on the matter of being restored from an earlier backup like what happened to him might be colouring my perception, but I felt that he deeply resented the way they treated him.
Wow, I've been totally misreading that final section. Thanks for clearing that up.
That's a perfectly valid way to do business. Unfortunately, those personal issues are there whether the org cares or not, and that has the potential to cause serious problems. It's clear in [I]Lack[/I] that Sava is a highly skilled individual and a very valuable asset for Firewall and yet he was willing to sell important information to Ozma for his (very valid) personal reasons. If you can't rely on your own people that's a serious problem.
Again, it may be personal bias, but I find the idea of being reset to an earlier version of me to be [I]fucking scary[/I]. I would refuse to work for any group that would fuck around with my mind like that, saviours of transhumanity or no.
Heh. You think you came up with these societal innovations, but we've been using the rep economy since before Proudhon learned to spell. Nobody understands how to motivate and inspire like we do.
You can take your pick on why I'm doing this: whether I have a vested interest in an effective Firewall, or I see a business opportunity in running the Eye myself or whether I feel sorry for the poor bastards Firewall has snared. If it matters to you, I can respect that; ask me, and decide whether you believe my answer. I might be a little hurt if you don't.
The real question is: are you in?
Wed, 2012-12-26 20:01
#28
Pale_Enchantress
Lilith wrote:Then you're
I'm sure I'll manage somehow. Two of my favorite people to RP with are already in. Nothing with them can be too unenjoyable.
You can get back up insurance for 1000 credits a month. Unless someone is doing something stupid, like working for firewall, they won't be dying very often.
And Firon. You speak as if Firewall can be combated. You may be able to eliminate your proxy but that will just make firewall destroy you. It's basically been the consensus here that you can't fight firewall.
Thu, 2012-12-27 00:33
#29
matthra
Destroying firewall without
Destroying firewall without destroying their benefactors probably won't accomplish much, even if it were possible. The pros would just set up another proxy network to conceal their work, and odds are, they don't have all their eggs in one basket to begin with. That's kind of the point, firewall is an organization run by heartless near omniscient beings hell bent saving transhumanity (albeit for their own reasons) from the other heartless near omniscient beings hellbent on destroying transhumanity.
Thu, 2012-12-27 02:34
#30
Fion Ravenwater
Pale_Enchantress wrote:And
[Joker voice] Kill Firewall? I don't want to kill Firewall! What would I do without it? Go back to ripping off Medusan Shield ops? No no no no no... Firewall... [I]completes[/I] me. [/Joker voice]
In more seriousness, Fion doesn't want to destroy Firewall. He wants to fix it.
Thu, 2012-12-27 20:45
#31
Lilith
Fion Ravenwater wrote:I once
If you think that's going to frighten a Proxy, you need a psychosurgeon to address your delusions of granduer. That said, feel free to talk to your Proxy all you want; just don't expect to care about anything that isn't about the mission getting done. For your sake, I hope you don't get stuck with Proxy Zealot. My proxy's just an asshole, but Zealot is a goddamn honey badger.
Emergency farcasters are very expensive, and there are many habitats that aren't comfortable with some bloke walking around with a minature anti-matter bomb in their heads. It's cheaper to just have redundant backups on private servers, not that I would know anything about that.
When did I say that wasn't the case? It's obvious he resents them; who wouldn't resent being treated as little more than a disposable tool? But that aside, he still does his job because he understands that's how things are. He just doesn't like it, much like how I detest my IRL job but go do it every day all the same.
Not a problem. [i]Lack[/i] basically solidified my love of Eclipse Phase (and was a large inspiration for my own character), and I've read it several times to that effect whenever I feel I've forgotten the general "feel" of the setting.
What makes you think Firewall wasn't counting on that eventuality?
Food for thought.
That's just part of transhuman life in general, though. If you die for any reason and your stack is irretreviable, or you have a case of the CRAZY or the x-virus, or if you just have a really bad breakup and don't feel like seeing a psychosurgeon, chances are you're going to end up resleeving from backup with missing time. That's why the word "lack" has even made it into the venacular in the first place; it's just one of those things transhumanity has to deal with. No one likes it, and I'm sure many people find it horrifying, which is why so many take efforts to record XPs and lifelogs in the event they need to catch up.
I think it's perfectly understandable that most sane people would want nothing to do with Firewall. That's why I portray the org in my settings as being as morally-grey as it is. Sane people don't want to fight Exsurgents. Sane people don't want to get involved in conspiracies where organizations you've never heard of will torture you in simulspace for a (relativistically) thousands of years before dicing up your ego into skillsofts.
But if transhumanity is to keep existing, [i]someone[/i] has to take the risk. And people can be surprisingly easy to motivate under the right circumstances.
And that's without resorting to psychosurgery, even.
Save the snake-oil salesman routine for the re-instantiated infos coming fresh out of cold storage. I've seen the swagger before, and it doesn't impress me. There's an old phrase I heard as a kid back on Earth: put up or shut up. If you're lucky, you won't end up with a plasma rifle pressed against your stack while you watch your off-site backups being deleted.
And if [i]I'm[/i] lucky, it won't be my plasma rifle.
Thu, 2012-12-27 22:41
#32
Pale_Enchantress
Firewall can't be completely
Firewall can't be completely invulnerable. Well firewall could lose their ability to do anything if all the agents turned against it a once.
The Promethians are not completely invulnerable either. They could be hit with the corrupted exergent virus. I think the only question is how could they be exposed to it and infected.
Thu, 2012-12-27 23:13
#33
matthra
Who says the pros aren't
Who says the pros aren't already infected, they undoubtedly found the Bracewell probes before the titans. The titans realized this and tried to force upload as many humans as they could in order to save as much of humanity as possible, because explaining the danger would have robbed them at the chance for surprise against seed AI's many recursive cycles ahead of them. The titan's as the misunderstood anti-heroes of the story has some appeal but it means the PCs are the jackbooted enforcers of the ETI enslaved seed AI.
However going with the setting as written, If they managed to avoid infection up to this point, odds are good simple monkey brains are likely not capable of finding a way to infect them, given that the ETI tried and failed. They probably have some sort of forking scheme with several layers between the external operating forks and the internal facing recursively improving forks. No doubt with arcane interaction protocols and the alpha fork having a kill switch on all other forks. The titans on the other hand may have a way, and I'm sure if you got past their instant need to chop off your head and upload you, or infect you with something that makes permanent death seem like a sensible alternative, they would be more than happy to give you something you could use to destroy one of humanities last lines of defense.
Fri, 2012-12-28 01:00
#34
Pale_Enchantress
matthra wrote:
That does help explain Firewall's hatred for the Exhumans. If they ever actually do get close to singularity they could be a real problem rather then the eccentric sadists they tend to be.
Fri, 2012-12-28 05:47
#35
amv451
sorry guys but.... why?
In my humble opinion, Firewall is simply a narrative tool to be used, exploited or ignored as you see fit in your narrative arch.
Nothing more and nothing less.
Do you want to play singularity seekers that cares nothing apart from their personal super-duper-power development? go for them! Creators and system do not prevent you.
My co-master run a Firewall-free game, for example, adjusting the scenarios for a bunch of anarchist - edonist guys that were absolutely not interested in becoming Sentinels or following any doomsday agenda.
Even our campaing is dramatically borderline with characters (like mine) having intricate layers of boons, reputation and lealty that often become fascinating narrative complications instead of being obstacles.
However, again all this is a matter of personal taste that can run free in one of the most enticing game-setting even written.
Destroying Firewall is almost like playing EP without TITANs: you can do it but you will surely loose, facinating details as well as many plot-twisting opportunities and useful supporters/adversaries.
Back in the days of White Wolf Storyteller system boom (early '90s) I think I explored all kind of psychotic, maniac or abused mysanthropic killer only to find out how they can be damned meaningless..... really, I am sick and tired of the dexter-like, joker-like, sort of nihilistic geniuses.... sooo boring.
BUT this is my personal taste, it has nothing to do on the motivational choices or goals of my players in EP (I even host a crypto-biocon and an insidious self-empowering potentially seeding AGI!).
Luckily EP backgound gives all of us the maximum freedom to decide where our adventures go....
This simply to say: you don't like Firewall, don't use it!
or use it like a boogeyman for your most plot destructive players, simply that.
The philosophic discussion of "qui custodiet ipsos custodes" (who watches the watchmen) is interesting but probably pointless and out of place in this forum. Again this is my humble opinion...
—
''Fascism is the enemy, wherever it appears'' - Philip K.Dick
" He who would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will lose both and deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin
"Freedoms are not given, they are taken" - P. Kropotkin
Wed, 2013-01-02 12:30
#36
nezumi.hebereke
By canon, Firewall is 'the
By canon, Firewall is 'the good guys'. That's pretty much fixed. Most everything else at this point is speculation.
I like the idea of Firewall blackbagging people they think would be useful, making a job offer, then killing them if they decline (letting them be brought back from backup), or even ego-napping for particularly critical skillsets. Firewall is clearly an organization not averse to breaking a few eggs.
But that's not canon.
Ultimately, Firewall is a volunteer organization. There's no contracts. They don't have 'retirement' teams. I'm sure they ask you to delete dangerous memories before retirement. But I've not seen anything to even suggest they'd be willing to force you. And ultimately, how could they? Your proxy is also a volunteer, and he'd like to maybe retire one day, even if only for a few years, without getting his head ground up. And since Firewall operates in a cell structure, there's nothing to force him to tell who his sentinels are.
(If you have a bad proxy, well ... that's an adventure arc of its own.)
And once you're in, you have some control over the work you take and the risks you run. You don't like dying? Don't be a sentinel. Do data analysis, or negotiate for better hotel rates for other members. The PCs are sentinels and part of the assumption there is they have explicitly agreed that sometimes they will die, sometimes their brains will be wiped, sometimes they'll be followed or poked or otherwise inconvienced. They agreed to that. If they change their minds, they can leave.
From a security standpoint, the only way I can accept this is through the use of the cell structure. If your character retires and writes a tell-all book, it really only threatens your proxy and the people under him. Your proxy doesn't know the identity of the guy he reports to, or any other proxies. This is how terrorist organizations operate now, because it's effective at counteracting information theft. Technology only makes it easier.
So how do you kill it?
First, stop seeing it as an organization. See it as a species. Each cell is an animal, and they leave markers for each other. Where's the food? Where are the threats? Where do we go next?
Kill them the same way you kill animals.
You can track down each cell individually, by tracing back data from where they last worked. You can set out traps for them. Threats to investigate that let you capture and interrogate sentinels. You can mimic them and compete with them. After all, if the other organization is addressing all of the threats and Firewall is always too little, too late, where are the sentinels going to want to work if they're trying to fight threats? You can poison the well. Impersonate Firewall and engage in terrorist missions.
Finally, figure out what they need to consume.
What does Firewall need to live? Recruits, equipment, rep, all are basically post-scarcity. They're as free as air. Unless you can trap some in an environment where you can cut that off, it's not very helpful.
Information... Cut off their sources of information. Corrupt the data they get. Bury it in so much chaff, they can't tell what's a real threat and what's the Prime Minister's daughter going on a college trip. If they can't trust their information, they can't go on missions (and they can't depend on their mission accomplishing its intended goals). Bit by bit you starve them out.
Just make sure you're ready to fill in that ecological niche with something better.