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The Sun Whales

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Fandomlife Fandomlife's picture
The Sun Whales
Fascinated by the Sun Whales? Do we have any more information on them, such as why they where put their and any long-term purpose? Are they sentient? Also, is it actually possible for a ship to get close to the ships corona or would interaction with a Sun Whale have to be done from a distance?
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Page 86 of the Core book basically contains all the information we have on the Spacewhales. Via the magic of the CC I copy and paste; SURYAS AND SALAMANDERS (CORONAL MORPHS) Perhaps an example of transhumanity’s most extreme neogenetic creations are the morphs adapted to live in the sun’s corona. Suryas, named after a Hindu sun deity, are large, whale-like, and uniquely adapted to dwell in the brilliant, superheated plasma cloud of the sun’s outermost layer. Each surya is like a miniature version of a circumsolar habitat. Their metabolisms generate powerful magnetic shields that shield them from the sun’s heat and radiation, while acting as magnetic sails and scoops by which they sail on the currents of the solar wind and extract elements carried on it. Suryas are protected by layers of liquid water “blubber” that capture harmful ions, which internal medichines extract and eject, while maintaining useful elements such as oxygen and hydrogen, from which more water can be synthesized. They communicate using patterns of dark and light coloration on their exterior skins and are extremely sensitive to the he- lioseismic soundwaves that are the sun’s pulse, using these vibrations to predict and avoid heavy weather in the coronal atmosphere. A second type of coronal morph is the salamander, a tiny humanoid morph with gas jets on the back and chest for maneuvering in vacuum. Salamanders have very similar metabolisms to suryas, but are unable to survive unprotected in the corona. They subsist on the chemicals and energy extracted from the corona by Ukko Jylinä, the only habitat where they are found. Both suryas and salamanders communicate either via transmissions from their implants or by “sunspot- ting”—shifting dark and light patterns on their skins to form language. That is basically all we have at the moment. So we know they are Sentient, they must have some purpose or other. Even in a post-scarcity economy I cannot see the Hypercorps just plopping giant Spacewhales onto the Sun for fun. Perhaps their unique senses allow them to predict coronal mass ejections and sun flares to a higher degree than other sensors?
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Fandomlife Fandomlife's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
As someone who doesn't have the game, but sort of drifted here because of some randomly encountered artwork - that is pretty cool.
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
The rulebook is released under an open license, which means you can feel free to download a copy of the rulebook for free. http://robboyle.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/cat21000_eclipsephase_2ndpri... is a link to the most up to date version (Its hosted on one of the Devs servers). Remember, if you like it, buy it! :D
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nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
I dunno. "I created them because I thought they were cool" is an entirely sufficient reason for an anarchist do create something, whether it's a new type of morph or a bunch of personalised coffee cups.

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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Their primary function is likely to utilize the largest potential habitat in the entire solar system; the surface of the sun. Salamanders and Suryas likely existed as a testbed for producing bodies which can survive [i]anywhere[/i]. Remember that morphs don't necessarily have to have a direct function in their design. Many people likely make a living on the mesh, rather than by utilizing their bodies. As such, a Surya with mesh implants can very well run a mesh-based business within the inner-system, while swimming rather carefree in the corona of the sun.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Still, I imagine buying a Morph capable of living on the Sun would be expensive. Like, really expensive. I cannot imagine your random Mesh Buisness owner owning one really. That large an investment must have a practical use beyond being a fun place to live. I agree that there is a chance that they where developed as a hostile environment testbed I guess. But then the Sun is a bit extreme, the only place I can imagine they would be of any other use is through one of the Gates, and then you have the trouble of fitting a very large spacewhale through a fairly small Pandora Gate (And then getting said Spacewhale to the nearest sun.) If I was going to produce a Morph capable of living in extreme conditions I would do it so it survived in actual space, not in the Sun corona. Much easier to put them to use (Just throw it out an airlock!).
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TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
See I always thought that Sun Whales were created for one of two reasons: 1. There was a large number of neo-cetaceans that needed a home and even Europa didn't have enough space for them all. 2. Being within the Sun's Corona means you can extract some the the more fundamental elements in the solar system (read prime resource of feed stock). With the destruction of Earth certain elements would become rare except in stars and gas giants (hydrogen specifically). Gas Giants have nasty storms 24/7 but the surface of the sun (while being quite violent and dangerous) is more stable (WRT wind speeds). Either way I expect that most Sun Whales are actual neo-cetaceans as they would be best suited (mentally) for the job.
Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
CodeBreaker wrote:
Still, I imagine buying a Morph capable of living on the Sun would be expensive. Like, really expensive. I cannot imagine your random Mesh Buisness owner owning one really. That large an investment must have a practical use beyond being a fun place to live. I agree that there is a chance that they where developed as a hostile environment testbed I guess. But then the Sun is a bit extreme, the only place I can imagine they would be of any other use is through one of the Gates, and then you have the trouble of fitting a very large spacewhale through a fairly small Pandora Gate (And then getting said Spacewhale to the nearest sun.) If I was going to produce a Morph capable of living in extreme conditions I would do it so it survived in actual space, not in the Sun corona. Much easier to put them to use (Just throw it out an airlock!).
The pandora gates are many things, but "small" is not one of them. Exoplanet explorers often bring entire vehicles on their trips with them, so a vehicle-sized morph should be fine. To that end, pandora gates can open up to anywhere so long as the person in control of the gate knows how to plug in the coordinates of the location. In theory, we can open a pandora gate directly into the corona of a star, allowing the suryas immediate access to their natural habitat in other systems. As for living in space, it's a lot harder than you think. A body designed to live in space would be a much more difficult issue... primarily because you need a means of providing that body both energy and propulsion. The sun produces vast amounts of energy, and an organism capable of harnessing that energy (and surviving its effects) could very well live for the billions of years that our sun continues to persist. To that end, suryas can swim within its corona, providing the propulsion that they largely don't need (propulsion is generally necessary as a means for an organism to consume, and suryas consume so long as they're on the sun). A space-based organism, however, would need energy, and likely need propulsion to acquire that energy (which means it has to throw mass). This is likely to be a very difficult endeavor.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
I was under the impression that: 1) The Pandora Gates are a Gate to Gate transfer system. So sure, you might end up dialing up a Pandora Gate that happens to be on a Sun but you could not just throw in some co-ords. 2) The ability to control the size of the gate entry way is not quite in our control. And the last time someone tried to fiddle with the controls a bit too much a large explosion went boom and some ExHumans decided to go galavanting across the Galaxy.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
CodeBreaker wrote:
I was under the impression that: 1) The Pandora Gates are a Gate to Gate transfer system. So sure, you might end up dialing up a Pandora Gate that happens to be on a Sun but you could not just throw in some co-ords. 2) The ability to control the size of the gate entry way is not quite in our control. And the last time someone tried to fiddle with the controls a bit too much a large explosion went boom and some ExHumans decided to go galavanting across the Galaxy.
[list=1][*]Pandora gates are gate-anywhere systems. This is actually why the job is so risky... problems on the gate end may cause explorers to be stuck until such a time that the gate can be re-opened on the other side. This is what caused the Synergy incident. [*]Pandora gates are of variable size, but at least one of them is large enough for a freight train to pass through. We may not necessarily know how to change its size yet, but the fact that they are already of different sizes seems to imply that it is a possibility, at the very least.[/list]
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Decivre wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:
I was under the impression that: 1) The Pandora Gates are a Gate to Gate transfer system. So sure, you might end up dialing up a Pandora Gate that happens to be on a Sun but you could not just throw in some co-ords. 2) The ability to control the size of the gate entry way is not quite in our control. And the last time someone tried to fiddle with the controls a bit too much a large explosion went boom and some ExHumans decided to go gallivanting across the Galaxy.
Pandora gates are gate-anywhere systems. This is actually why the job is so risky... problems on the gate end may cause explorers to be stuck until such a time that the gate can be re-opened on the other side. This is what caused the Synergy incident.
The Game Information section seems to disagree with you; When the gates themselves are open, a sphere appears within the central area that is not so much black as pure nothingness. This sphere of darkness projects an aura of charged energy, and in fact ripples of green arc lightning cascade across its surface. Anyone or anything entering that sphere comes out the other side of the wormhole, [b]through a similar gate[/b], seemingly instantaneously. An unknown force field effect seems to prevent the atmospheres from the two connected gates from interacting. Exactly how this wormhole is created is something that remains outside of transhumanity’s comprehen- sion. [b]The generally accepted theory is that each gate acts as an anchor, allowing the fabric of space-time to be folded so that two such anchored places can be brought together, ripping a hole open between them so that a person can simply step through.[/b] It is unclear whether or not these wormholes are all pre- existing, created when the gate was first established, or whether each wormhole is manufactured whenever the gate is activated. Bolded the important parts. Each gate connects to a gate on the other end, determined, seemingly, by the arrangement of the dialing gates matrix thing. The Synergy incident occurred when the Sol gate system was unable to force a connection through back to the Synergy gate system, for whatever reason. This is supported in quite a few places throughout the book. The part I quoted being one, page 109 referencing Echo being another; The original Pandora Gate opens onto lifeless Echo V, a forbiding place littered with the detritus of a dead alien civilization. You are correct in that the Pandora Gates vary in size, however the book is not all that specific about how much of a variance there is. It says that they are at times large enough to allow a freight train to pass through. Now we need to know how big a Suyra actually is. From the images provided they look [b]large[/b]. Very large indeed. If the spacecraft on the cover of Sunward is manned then they must be massive. That is supported by the fact that they are capable of producing a magnetic shield around themselves strong enough to deflect high energy particles on the surface of Sol. I may be wrong but I cannot imagine that being something easily crammed into a Morph the size of a Humpback Whale or a Blue Whale.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
CodeBreaker wrote:
Bolded the important parts. Each gate connects to a gate on the other end, determined, seemingly, by the arrangement of the dialing gates matrix thing. The Synergy incident occurred when the Sol gate system was unable to force a connection through back to the Synergy gate system, for whatever reason. This is supported in quite a few places throughout the book. The part I quoted being one, page 109 referencing Echo being another; The original Pandora Gate opens onto lifeless Echo V, a forbiding place littered with the detritus of a dead alien civilization. You are correct in that the Pandora Gates vary in size, however the book is not all that specific about how much of a variance there is. It says that they are at times large enough to allow a freight train to pass through. Now we need to know how big a Suyra actually is. From the images provided they look [b]large[/b]. Very large indeed. If the spacecraft on the cover of Sunward is manned then they must be massive. That is supported by the fact that they are capable of producing a magnetic shield around themselves strong enough to deflect high energy particles on the surface of Sol. I may be wrong but I cannot imagine that being something easily crammed into a Morph the size of a Humpback Whale or a Blue Whale.
Wow, I honestly didn't know all of that about Pandora gates. I was under the impression that they opened up to any locale, and didn't know they interlinked to other gates. That's very handy information indeed. Duly noted, I concede that point to you. I agree that suryas are likely very massive beings, but I do think it is possible that some gates will be capable of handling creatures of such a size. There are supposedly documented gates in other systems that free-float in space, and it's likely that they are designed for ships to pass through. In theory, as our knowledge of how to operate the gates expands, we may eventually gain the means to pass larger objects through... potentially even the suryas. One last thing I think should be noted: while I believe that suryas are massive, I do not think that they necessarily have to be in order to produce their magnetic shield. Natural magnetic fields are generally far weaker than artificial ones (an MRI produces a far more potent field than the earth), so an artificial morph can theoretically have a greater magnetic potential than one might realize. In that same vein, interaction between the suryas generated field and the solar winds likely creates a magnetosphere, which is probably their means of protection.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
I think our friend Decivre got that impression from Richard Morgan's BROKEN ANGELS novel in which... spoilers warning!
Spoiler: Highlight to view
a gate-to-anywhere kind of device was found. the corporate, Hand, had hired Takeshi Kovacs to gather and lead a team to retrieve a Martian artifact (the 'pandora gate') which is located in a dangerous and freshly nuked part of Sanction IV. When the archeologist manages to get the gate activated, they take their ship the Nagini (wonder if Morgan is a Potter fan, to have a ship named after Voldemort's pet) through the gate and ends up in space, right next to a HUGE, and I mean Habitat sized huge, Martian ship left there
something I wonder about is, what exactly is around the Gate, at least the Martian and Discord Gates? the illustration shows two people in an icy cave. That may have been when the Gate was discovered, but now? I kinda envision a Stargate Command kind of installation, with live-in staff working for Pathfinder, suites for VIP travellers, warehouses for goods waiting to be sent, etc on Echo IV, I reckon the base would look like...Hell's Gate. I wonder if there is a Gatecrasher xenobiologist named Dr Augustine present there or a Direct Action coloned named named Miles Quidditch, or something like that (please, don't smack the head! don't smack the head!)
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Few things... 1. Read the write-ups on Aten & Ukko-Jylinä. The suryas were created primarily to perform research. 2. The sun generates a lot of RF interference, so running a mesh-based business there might be tricky. This is part of the reason for the sunspotting language; you need it to communicate if there's too much interference. 3. We put them in the game because Rob wanted there to be sundiver morphs, and that's what I came up with. Some engineer might come along and shred me on this later, but without resorting to nanotech handwaving too much, seemed like you'd need a whale-sized body to continually generate a strong enough magnetic field to keep from burning up. The corona is actually hotter than some of the deeper reaches of the sun, for reasons that astronomers are still arguing about. 4. Trivia: I originally called them Prometheans (no relation to the AGIs), but this got changed in editing. I think Snead came up with "suryas," which I like a lot better. I didn't work on the Sun chapter, so another writer fleshed them out. I like the material they came up with... and the illo of a Salamander that's also appearing is wonderful, too. It's almost exactly how I imagined them looking.
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
So we'll get to see a pic of them? sweet! I really dig the Suryas name. pretty nice touch something I was wondering about the sunwhales. Are they present only in our system, or in the others too? they could come in handy to check on that alien ship in the Luca system (if I'm not mistaking this system for another)
[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...
Kanada Ten Kanada Ten's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Dr. Sólfar Sauhatapana Ta-Novaeangliae wrote:
In human mythology, the apocryphal records tell us, the ancient sapiens divined five elements - just enough for their evolutionary abacus, the hand. Four of the five, Air, Water, Fire, and Earth, had an opposite; an opposing element whose interaction was annihilation; but for the rest, various quantities of each element combined to make the various rocks and fish of the world. Two parts Earth and one part Fire to make coal, for example. If we think of these elements as atoms, as these early uprights did, then the analogy of matter and antimatter comes to mind for the combining of Air and Earth or Fire and Water. For those of us borne by water; born, as it were, beneath the waves; the salt kissed; the deep dwellers; for us, fire was always a mystery, an enigma. Not physics, not the laws governing the strange flickering, quicksilver dance heat and light - those we understood well enough. But of emotion, of sensuality. A mystery we felt safe from, safe to puzzle and romanticize. For myself, I viewed Fire and Water not as enemies, but as lovers, forbidden lovers whose very touch changed them. Not destroyed or battled against, but altered and invigorated. I remember those days, that golden age, when we were among the first uplifted - and I use that term with total sincerity, without irony - despite the hubris, for what is life without hubris, what is life if not the audacity to create? Then, we spent many long hours in quiet dreams along the bottoms of those tanks. There was still a gap, a seeming chasm as vast as the gulf between planets, between human thoughts and our own. They seemed alien, incompressible, almost as much so as now, but then we studied them, studied what they chose to show us, I should say. That was before it went bad. Who knew, then, that the world balanced on a thread - a breaking, strained thread six billion years old? It was easy then to romanticize fire, fusion, the power of heat and light. We talked of when we, the water dwellers, would have mastery over this mystery. Fire. The life bringer. There is a reason Prometheus is the god of forethought and fire, for where would humankind be without fire? And where would it take us, the newly uplifted. The enlightened. When war came, and come it did, like the rising tentacles of a giant squid, its gnashing fiery tentacles streaking across the sky, it seemed our dreamtime was ending. Fire's Janus face, the face of destruction, the face of suffocating agony, rained down on the earth. Sweeping away the old age. I dreamt then, dreamt I saw my kind riding the plumes of fire that exploded from the surface like terrible algal blooms. I dreamt we rose into the air, swimming with phoenix fins into the star riddled sky. Of all of us, of all the few hundred awaken whales and dolphins of my group, I was the only one who survived, survived to have my mind spliced into a millions bits and beamed into the night like an ocean song lamenting everything lost to the fires of war. I still sing that song. That elegy, that eulogy for our fallen past. But the future flows on. In human mythology, the apocryphal records tell us, the ancients knew fire's destructive nature. Knew it could destroy and kill and wipe away their world. They warned of it, time and again. But they knew, too, that fire could rejuvenate, could cleanse. Thus they dreamed of the phoenix, that beast who died by fire and was born of the ashes. Borne from the ashes as we all have been re here, in the scorched soil. And so to was my dream reawakened here. My dream of conquering fire, the dream to embody the phoenix and swim within the flames. Within the very heart of fire. Thus, I have given birth, birth to a new body, a new spirit. This, my child, my body. The Surya! Special thanks to Mercurry Industries: for all your nova hot spicy need, nothing's hotter than Mercurry.
They say the only thing longer than his speeches was his name.

Rethink Resleeve Redo

Tymeaus Jalynsfein Tymeaus Jalynsfein's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Very Nice... I like it... Keep the Faith
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
I know I'm resurrecting a zombie thread here, but... A friend who I was talking to in regards to an idea for a salamander-station based scenario recently pointed out that the corona is actually one of the hottest layers of the sun...Not the coolest as one might think due to it being the outer layer. We're not sure why, but there is a layer MUCH deeper into the sun which ONLY has temperatures of about 4,000K. Which brings us to the other problem. The temperature of the corona ranges between 1 and 2 million Kelvin. To put this in perspective, iron boils at a little over 3000K and basically sublimates at around 4000K. So...Sadly, Suryas are magic. I mean, they are AWESOME LOOKING magic. But they're magic. Wikipedia (admittedly not always the best resource) notes that "The coolest layer of the Sun is a temperature minimum region about 500 km above the photosphere, with a temperature of about 4,100 K.[50] This part of the Sun is cool enough to support simple molecules such as carbon monoxide and water, which can be detected by their absorption spectra." The corona is roughly five hundred times that hot. And apparently, magnetic fields don't do a great deal to IR (or other light-spectrum) radiation until the magnetic fields have absolutely ludicrous strength. It seems that you achieve 'yanks all the iron molecules in your body sideways' long before you achieve 'bends IR'. Of course, at the temperatures we're talking about iron loses its magnetic qualities, but we're talking about a strong enough magnetic field to 'bend heat' and at that point it will pretty much bend any phsyical mass, too... Hooray for science FANTASY. Please just going to ignore all that. Look at the pretty pictures of sundiving whales. They are awesome.
puke puke's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Yeah, they're kinda silly and I think they were thrown in on a whim. I seem to remember some chatter to that effect from the designers a while back. But in their defense (and I dont know enough about the topic to really understand the factoid that i'm regurgitating here) the corona has relatively low HEAT inspite of its high TEMPERATURE due to it's "tenuous nature" which I take to mean DENSITY. I read that somewhere. I wont even pretend to understand how that might be relevant, but it sure sounds reasonable.
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
That's a rather peculiar way of putting it. What it amounts to is: the heat in the corona is such that everything is plasma. Complex (read organic) molecules cannot exist because the ionic bonds necessary to create complex molecules simply do not exist at those temperatures. To quote the great poet, "Things fall apart."
forsaken1111 forsaken1111's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
So the corona of the sun is a mess of plasma at ludicrous temperatures? Then the strong magnetic field around the sunwhales doesn't magically block radiation, it simply deflects the plasma within the corona and maintains a thin vacuum around the whale's body. If the plasma does not contact the whale's skin, thermal energy transfer from it will be minimal and it would only have to deal with radiated IR from the sun and the surrounding plasma rather than contact heat transfer. Wouldn't maintaining a vacuum around themselves actually insulate them somewhat if they deflected all of that hot plasma away?
root root's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
root@Sun Whales [hr] Yea, these guys make my brain bleed. I've been explicitly disallowed to extrapolate about using Suryas as raw material for any mad invention. I'm not even allowed to strap guns to their fins and sail them to war.
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forsaken1111 forsaken1111's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
What's that you say? Sunwhales with cannons on their back, flying the Jolly Rodger? Sailing about the sun raiding coronal habitats? YARR!
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
SUNWHALES. With LASERS. Eight O'clock! Day one!
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
The corona may have a high temperature - particles have a very high speed - but it has much less density than the lower layers, so the total energy per cubic meter is much less. A bit like how you can put your hand into a hot oven and not get burned, but if you touch any solid part on the inside you get hurt immediately. Deflecting coronal plasma with magnetic fields is eminently possible. But the IR issue remains. EPs metamaterials might help create superreflectors that handle a lot of this, but there is still going to be an awful lot of heating. The best solution to this is probably to make use of high energy cooling systems that spend a lot of energy pumping heat from the inside of a habitat or surya to radiators on the surface; they have to be hotter than the surroundings (!), most likely magnetically confined arcs of plasma themselves. (Sundiver style laser cooling doesn't work, sadly. Lasers have very little heat capacity, and producing laser light tends to be inefficient - they produce more heat than they carry away. Thermodynamics is a nasty business.)
Extropian
root root's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
root@Sun Whales It occurs to me that we have enough rocket scientists here to roughly solve this in terms of how close something can get to the corona of the sun before ceasing to exist. I watched the movie Sunshine again recently, and the same question came up. What are the most significant constraints to the problem of approaching a solar surface?
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
root wrote:
What are the most significant constraints to the problem of approaching a solar surface?
Leaving aside the trouble of getting out of the gravity well, I would expect radiation to dominate. Both the ionizing particle radiation and the heating. Let's check the heating. The energy flux at distance R from the sun (in AUs) is around 1000/R^2 Watts per square meter. So if you have a whale or station of radius r meters and reflection coefficient alpha, you will need to get rid of 1000 pi (1-alpha) r^2/R^2 Watts. Metals reach alpha 0.95 in the visible range and much better in IR, superreflector metamaterials may go higher (I also ignore the issue of normal and tangential reflection - light hitting at a glancing angle is easier to reflect away). Lets assume we reach alpha 0.999. Then the problem is P = pi r^2/R^2 Watts of energy. If the station has thermal capacity K per cubic meter it will heat up 3 / 4 K r R^2 degrees Kelvin per second. Let's say we are 3 million km away, R=0.02 AU, and K is 300 (as 10% iron, the rest air - a fluffy space whale is likely not too different). For r=10 m (whale) that means handling 785,300 Watts and for the r=100 space station 78,530,000 Watts. The whale would heat up at a rate of 0.625 degrees per second, the station 0.0625 degrees if the active cooling stopped. So survival times is on the order of 160-1600 seconds if things break down. Now, pumping away that heat requires more than P (Thot - Tcold)/Tcold Watts of work. If Tcold = 300 Kelvin and Thot = 1000 Kelvin, you need 2.3 times as much energy as you are receiving from the sun to pump it away. The whale needs 1.8 MW of cooling, the station needs nearly 2 GW. Given spaceship performance in EP, this is not implausible. However, now we assume that it works having 1000 K radiators. If they have to be 10,000 K - which seems likely - efficiency drops to 32 times the cooled energy: the whale needs 25 MW, the station 2.5 GW. Still doable. but now things are getting very energetic - those coronal habitats are likely largely fusion reactors and cooling systems themselves, and the radiators are scary plasma filaments. Going down a factor of 3 to really skim the surface increases the heating by 9 times (actually things get worse since now you get a lot more sideways heating); let's call it 10 times. This is where I think we reach the limits of EP level tech - fitting a 250 MW reactor into a whale is getting hard. Compared to this, ionizing radiation is not too bad. You can likely deflect a lot of it with the coronal shields and have active repair nano everywhere. It is the heat that gets you.
Extropian
Caernkeeper Caernkeeper's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
The overall feeling of Suryas and Salamanders is great, but I also hesitated on using them... it's simply TOO far fetched to fit in the general mood of transhuman science. And to develop such an removed culture in the space of a few years also seems extreme. The compromise between fun ad suspension of disbeliefe will be using them as alien species, since it is acceptable to gift aliens with "technology beyond our grasp".
You can't break, can't change, can't take us down. (We run this town!) We stand, we'll fight, set fires all night
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Well, they certainly are part of the setting, and it can be used as part of the background of a character. It also allows for a "safe" place to hide an ego. Anyway, I agree that is mostly oriented to NPCs and background.
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
I would also be totally at a loss as to how to make use of sun-dwellers in my game, certainly as anything more than fleeting rumour garnished with some purported alien tech handwaving. Reluctance to include them as actual characters notwithstanding, I understand why they were included in the game as they do present a very beautiful and poetic image, even if it is a totally implausible one.
PredatoryMollusk PredatoryMollusk's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Arenamontanus][quote=root wrote:
Going down a factor of 3 to really skim the surface increases the heating by 9 times (actually things get worse since now you get a lot more sideways heating); let's call it 10 times. This is where I think we reach the limits of EP level tech - fitting a 250 MW reactor into a whale is getting hard.
So you're saying that a Surya would have to have a massive reactor in it's own body (the size of a habitat), just to deal with the heat from the Corona. And that does sound a bit silly. Now, this is probably a stupid question, but could Suryas periodically stop in at their habitats and... charge their batteries or something? Could they have a smaller internal mechanism that deflects the heat, but would require them to dock at orbital stations every few weeks (or days) to replenish their power? I'm sorry it's just... I want to run a Surya-focused one shot, and I just know my players are going to tear the game apart unless I can give them a semi-plausible explanation.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
PredatoryMollusk wrote:
So you're saying that a Surya would have to have a massive reactor in it's own body (the size of a habitat), just to deal with the heat from the Corona. And that does sound a bit silly.
Only the big reactor. I can certainly see a few megawatts of power hidden in a whale-sized body with EP tech. 250 MW, now we are talking something rather heavy.
Quote:
Now, this is probably a stupid question, but could Suryas periodically stop in at their habitats and... charge their batteries or something? Could they have a smaller internal mechanism that deflects the heat, but would require them to dock at orbital stations every few weeks (or days) to replenish their power?
I think replenishing at habitats makes sense. The most efficient reactors might be antimatter reactors after all. Also, being able to "sweat" (really a kind of evaporative ablative armour) to get rid of heat might be useful in emergencies or when a fluctuation gets out of hand, and that would require some refuelling. Note that storing heat is practically pointless: there is nothing with enough thermal capacity. But you can certainly have some good insulation by having the outer skin mostly separated from the inner skin by vacuum, making black-body radiation the only heat transfer mechanism. Sunwhales are right there on the border of the physically possible... awesome but apparently impractical, yet perhaps slightly less impractical than they look.
Extropian
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
I've been promising/threatening to write a scenario where everyone plays either a surya or a sundiver. I didn't get to it for this year's con-going season, but rest assured it's still on my to-do list.
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
jackgraham wrote:
I've been promising/threatening to write a scenario where everyone plays either a surya or a sundiver. I didn't get to it for this year's con-going season, but rest assured it's still on my to-do list.
I've got a half-written one where everybody is a salamander. :D
Mandella Mandella's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
Instead of reposting, here is the previous thread with sixty some odd posts discussing the pros and cons and theories behind Suryas. http://www.eclipsephase.com/not-getting-surya
jackgraham jackgraham's picture
Re: The Sun Whales
You should finish it & submit it. For my money, some of the best con scenarios are ones that run with the more exotic parts of the setting.
J A C K   G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth!   http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Arenamontanus wrote:root
Arenamontanus wrote:
root wrote:
What are the most significant constraints to the problem of approaching a solar surface?
Leaving aside the trouble of getting out of the gravity well, I would expect radiation to dominate. Both the ionizing particle radiation and the heating. Let's check the heating. The energy flux at distance R from the sun (in AUs) is around 1000/R^2 Watts per square meter. So if you have a whale or station of radius r meters and reflection coefficient alpha, you will need to get rid of 1000 pi (1-alpha) r^2/R^2 Watts. Metals reach alpha 0.95 in the visible range and much better in IR, superreflector metamaterials may go higher (I also ignore the issue of normal and tangential reflection - light hitting at a glancing angle is easier to reflect away). Lets assume we reach alpha 0.999. Then the problem is P = pi r^2/R^2 Watts of energy.
Could the magnetic fields collect and condense coronal plasma so that the plasma on the outside of the magnetic field blocked the radiation?
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Smokeskin wrote:Could the
Smokeskin wrote:
Could the magnetic fields collect and condense coronal plasma so that the plasma on the outside of the magnetic field blocked the radiation?
Having some kind of plasma shield is just the same as having a metal shield: they heat up until they are at equilibrium with the surroundings. That means that now you have a white-hot plasma as your surroundings instead of... white-hot plasma. Can't win. If the plasma had been a normal gas compressing it would have heated it up, and decompressing it fast would have cooled it down (consider how a hand-pump for bike tires gets hot when you use it to pressurize the tire, and how escaping air becomes cold). Not sure if the same equation of state is true for plasma, but if something similar is true you might be able to create a cool region by having magnetic fields constantly suck up plasma and eject it, so you are surrounded by a low-pressure region. I am *very* uncertain about this - but as a handwave to maintain suspension of disbelief it might have merit. "I saw the magnetotails of the school of suryas gently twisting around the top of the solar filament. They were ejecting laser-bright plasma streams to cool themselves in a halo of blessed relative chill and low pressure. Even when at rest they ejected their tails, looking like they were dramatically accelerating -like illustrations of atomic rockets from some mid-20th century sf illustration. In reality they were nearly stationary, and occasionally had to fire off their real thrusters to handle the Sun's gravity. Often they clustered together in groups for more efficient cooling, letting the energy-poorest members stay in the shielded interior. Not too unlike antarctic penguin colonies. The more things change, the more they stay the same."
Extropian
King Shere King Shere's picture
Warpfield?
Im pondering if it would be possible to create a warp field that warps the "external" heat emission away, instead of spacetime (that could be a added bonus). Bending the heat around the enclosed area, rather than on the surface of the enclosure. Or something opposite idea than the Tokamak (where task is to contain superheated plasma within). Today metamaterial like Carbon nanotubes are able to bend various emissions , and create invisibilty
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
King Shere wrote:Im pondering
King Shere wrote:
Im pondering if it would be possible to create a warp field that warps the "external" heat emission away, instead of spacetime (that could be a added bonus). Bending the heat around the enclosed area, rather than on the surface of the enclosure. Or something opposite idea than the Tokamak (where task is to contain superheated plasma within). Today metamaterial like Carbon nanotubes are able to bend various emissions , and create invisibilty
Tokamaks keep plasma in place using a strong magnetic field. The plasma is in a sense deflected away from touching the walls. So in principle one could do the same thing for something immersed in plasma. But as I argued in a post above, conduction of heat is a minor problem compared to radiated heat. If you can warp spacetime you can use wormholes for heat sinks - just pump excess heat into intergalactic space. But now we are talking ETI level tech. I doubt metamaterials will be helpful, since they can only handle individual frequencies. You need to deflect all parts of the blackbody spectrum, and it is very wide. A layer deflecting frequency 1 will be heated by frequency 2, and vice versa.
Extropian