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Representative Democracy and Capitalism

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Ilmarinen Ilmarinen's picture
Representative Democracy and Capitalism
Hi. Looking over over the Eclipse Phase setting I noticed an alarming lack of inoffensive centrist democracies. While some experimentation with radical new forms of government is understandable in the wake of the greatest tragedy in history, it's been a decade now. Clearly it's time for someone to step in and lead the march back towards business as usual. Having said that, exactly how tough would it be to set up a representative democracy in the outer system? Specifically one coupled with a traditional market regulated by said representatives? Capitalism itself doesn't seem to be that much of a challenge. Even assuming access to basically unrestricted nanofactories and and a culture of open source and/or ubiqutuous digital piracy, some things remain scarce and thus valued. Specialist skills, hard-to-produce objects, the power and materials that go into the cornucopia machines - all of these retain their value and neither the mesh nor nanoassemblers can budge that one bit. Under the standard system practiced by the anarchist habitats, if a software designer needs some flowers arranged, he has to find a floral specialist and either hope she's in the same social network as him and feels like she owes him a favor or try to barter with her. And if she doesn't happen to need any software designed, the latter option is likely to lead to cartoonish shenanigans. Improving the barter economy by introducing a single universally desired good that can serve as a means of exchange and a store of value seems like the obvious idea. Because contrary to the apparent attitude of the autonomists, even After the Fall people apparently need each other's help and when you're trying to determine the value of a good or service, what someone else is willing to give you for it seems no worse a metric than what people think about it. Essentially the final system would end up being something between a 'transitional' and 'new' economy: everyone has access to unrestricted fabbers but instead of having a set allowance you're expected to pay for materials and energy you use as well as for any services you need other people to provide. Representative democracy likewise seems undervalued by the canon setting. While the wonders of the mesh make direct democracy possible, they don't necessarily make it desirable. The aforementioned software designer and floral specialist are unlikely to have strong opinions on how to keep the habitat's hallways clean and likely don't have the time or the inclination to do research on the subject. As such, it only makes to put a single person in charge of hallway cleanup and check in on them every couple years to see if they need to be replaced by someone else. While those with strong dislike of hierarchical systems would obviously find fault with the idea, I'd guess that many of the solar system's inhabitants have an attitude toward hierarchies that's somewhere between apathy and disinterest. So: can this be done? Is the setup workable or is there some aspect of the setting I'm missing that would keep such a habitat from being set up?
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NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Morningstar Constellation
Morningstar Constellation seems pretty close to this.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Democracy isn't free. It is
Democracy isn't free. It is just the majority oppressing and stealing from a minority, instead of the other way around, and people can't be sure to remain in the ruling majority. But it is still oppression. Representative democracy is even worse, as you start having organizations that game the system by selecting candidates. And then there's the whole problem of the ignorance and poor decision making of your average voter. It's close to a kakistocracy. Why would anyone with good intentions set up such a system? What sort of people would go there to live?
Holy Holy's picture
I love the idea of anarchism
I love the idea of anarchism and I do like to think of ways how it could work. Therefore I like to dive into this aspect of EP and try to figure out ways how and why it is working. Asked for a realistic rather than a wish-driven thought about this I would follow Ilmarinen in the argument. I think nanofabrication and enhanced communication via the mesh does neither change scarcity, nor would it change human nature. As for the barter economy: I heard an anthropologist on a radio program some time ago, who stated that the barter economy seems to be a myth, with which Adam Smith came up. It is far more likely that early communities without money used a dept system rather than carrying around 200 chicken to excahnge them for 1 pig. Could have been more like: I need your plough, so I ask you for it, you give it to me, therefore I owe you. This works in rather small communities as long as you can keep track of depts. Or you would need some tracking tool to have it work in bigger groups. So I really loved that social network idea.
Ilmarinen Ilmarinen's picture
Smokeskin wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Why would anyone with good intentions set up such a system? What sort of people would go there to live?
Division of labor. If you have one person in charge of making decisions on a subject, it frees everyone else from having to think about that subject except once every four years or so.
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Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Holy wrote:I love the idea of
Holy wrote:
I love the idea of anarchism and I do like to think of ways how it could work. Therefore I like to dive into this aspect of EP and try to figure out ways how and why it is working. Asked for a realistic rather than a wish-driven thought about this I would follow Ilmarinen in the argument. I think nanofabrication and enhanced communication via the mesh does neither change scarcity, nor would it change human nature.
I don't understand your issue with it. If your talents are scarce people are going to be more thankful when you help them with it giving you more rep. If you're the one bringing in the much needed metals to the outer fringe hab, you're going to get a ton of rep for that. The rep system is adaptive and adresses scarcity like a capitalistic system does, just in a different way. One main difference seem to be that the rewards are skewed towards serving the community, while capitalistic systems are skewed towards serving those with capital. In a capitalistic society you can make a good living serving the personal interests of someone wealthy while doing pro-bono work helping the poor will get you nothing - in a rep economy, it is almost the reverse.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Ilmarinen wrote:Smokeskin
Ilmarinen wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Why would anyone with good intentions set up such a system? What sort of people would go there to live?
Division of labor. If you have one person in charge of making decisions on a subject, it frees everyone else from having to think about that subject except once every four years or so.
Why do you think that doesn't happen in an anarchist hab?
Holy Holy's picture
Smokeskin wrote:The rep
Smokeskin wrote:
The rep system is adaptive and adresses scarcity like a capitalistic system does, just in a different way. One main difference seem to be that the rewards are skewed towards serving the community, while capitalistic systems are skewed towards serving those with capital. In a capitalistic society you can make a good living serving the personal interests of someone wealthy while doing pro-bono work helping the poor will get you nothing - in a rep economy, it is almost the reverse.
The point that comes to my mind is: In a rep economy I have to care about what people think about me quite alot. I have to be aware how I am seen and have to try to act acording to what people want me to do. That sounds not very good to me. What I wonder is, if it is really like that, or if it's only my upbringing and the culture that I was raised in, which raises my suspicions. Does the modern (western?) individualistic way of thinking prevent me from following my own needs AND to also contribute in a positive way to society? Did the folks in Eclipse Phase overcome this? They obviously did, as is stated in the books. But what kind of frictions does this cause and how are they dealing with it.
Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
I agree with NewtonPulsifer,
I agree with NewtonPulsifer, the Morningstar Constellation is pretty darn close to what you're asking about. In the Outer System though? I haven't read Rimward yet but I'm pretty darn sure something like what you're asking for exists out there. And if one isn't mentioned in Rimward, well, there's nothing preventing you from making your own stuff up! Solar system's a big place. If you haven't read Sunward already, I'd do it to look at Morningstar, since it really does seem to fit with what you're asking for. So to answer your question of can it be done? Yes, absolutely. Hell if you want to do what I did and make the Planetary Consortium seem far less of the "evil capitalist oppressors" it was depicted as in the core rulebook then you can certainly do that.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
Ilmarinen Ilmarinen's picture
Noble Pigeon wrote:I agree
Noble Pigeon wrote:
I agree with NewtonPulsifer, the Morningstar Constellation is pretty darn close to what you're asking about. In the Outer System though? I haven't read Rimward yet but I'm pretty darn sure something like what you're asking for exists out there. And if one isn't mentioned in Rimward, well, there's nothing preventing you from making your own stuff up! Solar system's a big place. If you haven't read Sunward already, I'd do it to look at Morningstar, since it really does seem to fit with what you're asking for.
I'll have to look into that.
Noble Pigeon wrote:
So to answer your question of can it be done? Yes, absolutely. Hell if you want to do what I did and make the Planetary Consortium seem far less of the "evil capitalist oppressors" it was depicted as in the core rulebook then you can certainly do that.
I don't have a problem with the Consortium. It would actually surprise me if there wasn't someone trying to keep artificial scarcity around, and it's interesting that they're still portrayed as competent. I do have a problem with the way the description of the economic systems implies that the spread of cornucopia machines inevitably leads to the 'new' economy, rep and all. Money's a pretty efficient tool and nothing about the existence of cheap manufacturing leads to its extinction.
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Undocking Undocking's picture
Noble Pigeon wrote:I agree
Noble Pigeon wrote:
I agree with NewtonPulsifer, the Morningstar Constellation is pretty darn close to what you're asking about. In the Outer System though? I haven't read Rimward yet but I'm pretty darn sure something like what you're asking for exists out there. And if one isn't mentioned in Rimward, well, there's nothing preventing you from making your own stuff up! Solar system's a big place.
Whiskey (Rimward 141) is a torus hab that is 37 AU out and claims to be the farthest form of civilization in the system. It is run by an executive council that could very well be democratic. Many of the Independent habs in Rimward are not very specific about the type of governance or economy they use. @Ilmarien you could easily make your own democratic habitat or habitat group in the inner fringe, belt, or about anywhere in the outer system (which is where its at).
matthra matthra's picture
The Jovian's
The Jovian's are probably the closest to a western style democracy, being for all intents and purposes space Americans. They have elected legislative and executive branches with actual political parties, constitutional rights, and a strong focus on civic duty, family, and faith. The military has a dis proportionate influence on civic matters, most of which is due to martial law having been declared after the fall. It's definitely a western democracy looking through a glass, darkly. The central question about the future is can the moderate Jovian factions wrest power from the security council peacefully, if the moderate factions gain control they could be a fairly ideal "modern" democracy. If the security council retains power, war seems inevitable, the Jovian's have the strongest military in the system currently, but due to several factors that's likely to be a temporary situation. If they don't take action soon they'll be out bred, out researched, outgunned, and surrounded by enemies on all sides. The planetary consortium seems like a tempting target, no real military, weak governance, but I suppose that topic for another thread.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Yes, my understanding is that
Yes, my understanding is that the Jovians, the Morningstar Alliance, and much of the PC operates under representative democracy, in some form or another. That would cover just about 90% of the population of the solar system :P The Consortium itself isn't representative democracy for the same reason the UN or NAFTA aren't. It's so high level, deals with so many trade and government secrets, and is so oriented around business, that Joe Shmoe really doesn't have any place in it. However, I'd expect that most cities or states on Mars or other locations are common democracies, if only because it gives an outlet to calm the masses. Another point; part of the reason why representative democracy doesn't get a lot of face time in the books is because it's boring. We already know how it works! It's the default. It would be like an advertisement for Toyota Camry, mentioning it has four wheels! and seats inside!. We assume that, so we just keep rolling without bringing it up. Titan is special because it breaks that mold.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Titan is also awesome.
Titan is also [i]awesome[/i].
Gantolandon Gantolandon's picture
Actually, it is not so
Actually, it is not so obvious that a 20th century-style capitalist representative democracy would be that feasible in Eclipse Phase world. It is a complicated system which requires many cultural and economic factors which the world after the Fall simply lacks. For example, capitalism pretty much requires high population growth, which is a steady source of cheap workforce. This is not as simple in the world of EP, where a lot of people died and children are born somewhat rarely. Of course, backups and forks solve this problem somewhat, but living space and biomass for morphs is pretty scarce. Planetary Consortium managed to fuel their capitalist machine with re-instantiated indentures and they have plenty of living space on the surface of Mars - so this is not a problem for them. But this is not a lifestyle that is sustainable in a habitat somewhere in Jovian Trojans.
Ilmarinen Ilmarinen's picture
Gantolandon wrote:Actually,
Gantolandon wrote:
Actually, it is not so obvious that a 20th century-style capitalist representative democracy would be that feasible in Eclipse Phase world. It is a complicated system which requires many cultural and economic factors which the world after the Fall simply lacks. For example, capitalism pretty much requires high population growth, which is a steady source of cheap workforce. This is not as simple in the world of EP, where a lot of people died and children are born somewhat rarely. Of course, backups and forks solve this problem somewhat, but living space and biomass for morphs is pretty scarce. Planetary Consortium managed to fuel their capitalist machine with re-instantiated indentures and they have plenty of living space on the surface of Mars - so this is not a problem for them. But this is not a lifestyle that is sustainable in a habitat somewhere in Jovian Trojans.
Why does capitalism require a cheap work force? Even assuming the production of all consumer and industrial goods is outsourced to nanobots, money still serves as a perfectly viable way to facilitate the exchange of whichever resources remain scarce.
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Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Ilmarinen wrote:Why does
Ilmarinen wrote:
Why does capitalism require a cheap work force? Even assuming the production of all consumer and industrial goods is outsourced to nanobots, money still serves as a perfectly viable way to facilitate the exchange of whichever resources remain scarce.
Using money to facilitate exchange and capitalism is not the same thing. I am not good enough on economic theory to explain to you why capitalism needs a cheap workforce to prosper but historically that has been so.
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