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Size Rating and Morphs as "hardware"

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Sun, 2012-11-11 09:03

Ferretz

Size Rating and Morphs as "hardware"

So, I love the setting in Eclipse Phase. I think it's the best sci-fi rpg out on the market right now, but as I've mentioned in other places here on the forums, I'm not very happy with some of the rules, and some of them can create situations that are downright silly. The size of morphs is a major pain in the backside. There are very little difference, according to the rules as they are written, between a huge combat morph and a house cat. In my opinion, the cat shouldn't even be able to hurt the combat morph, unless it's very, very lucky "Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Also, my players have complained that morphs feel only like modifiers to the ego, and that the idea that "The ego is the software and the morph is the are hardware" really doesn't work in the rules. So, here are some of the ideas I'm working on: Size Rating (SR): This is an additional rating for each morph. It can go from 1 (a single swarmoid bot) to 10 (size of big buildings). Most common morphs are human sized, and has a SR of 5. In combat, when attacking a target that is larger with muscle powered weapons (weapons using SOM as damage bonus), subtract damage dice for every difference. This can reduce the number of dice to zero, but keep the static damage bonus, and the bonus from SOM. Also, if attacking smaller targets, add dice for each size difference. Also, for all attacks, you get a bonus to hit of +10 for each SR your target is larger than yourself, and the other way around. Size 4 is the same as Small Target in the rules. Size 6 is Large Target, and Size 8 is Very Large Target. Example: Splicer (SR 5) attacking a Neotenic with a vibroblade. He gets -10 to hit, but his damage would be 3d10+(SOM/10). Later, the Neotenic attacks the Splicer with a club. He gets +10 to the attack, the damage would only be 2+(SOM/10). Another idea I'm working on is to better represent morphs as "hardware" and the ego as "software". This has much more to do with our preference than with how the rules work, but I thought I'd share it anyway. In this idea, the Aptitudes are tied to the morphs, not the ego. To get the statistics for a morph, just add 15 to every Aptitude. Just like Durability, these are now static, and each Aptitude gives a bonus to related skill rolls. This gives less flexibility with the morphs, but makes choosing the right one more important, and makes it more playable, in my opinion. So, Ego = Skills, Morph = Aptitudes. :) The only flexibility would come from the flexible Aptitude bonuses many morphs have, making these even more useful. Any thoughts? Eirik

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"I can’t talk to a man who bears an undeserved animosity towards ferrets."

-GRAHAM CHAPMAN (1941-89)

Sun, 2012-11-11 16:08

RustedPantheress RustedPantheress's picture

1) I did do an Expanded Sizes

1) I did do an Expanded Sizes table [url=http://eclipsephase.com/expanded-size-categories]here[/url], and other people have done the "Morphs as Hardware" idea before. Personally, I wouldn't mess with it too much, because then oy gevalt all the rules changes.

—

Somebody is using bad science! Snark, facts, snark. Your body is corrupted: Cool, do more science to it. Your mind is warped: That's nice, want a cookie? What do we say to the God of Death? Not today!

Sun, 2012-11-11 17:27

Ferretz

Well, the problem my players

Well, the problem my players have with the morphs is that they're too similar. Stats doesn't make, for example, a big combat morph and a dragonfly very different in capability. I really hope the next book (Transhuman?) will adress some of this stuff and present some optional rules. -E.

—

"I can’t talk to a man who bears an undeserved animosity towards ferrets."

-GRAHAM CHAPMAN (1941-89)

Mon, 2012-11-12 03:11

LatwPIAT

The problem with making

The problem with making Aptitudes morph-bound is that most derived statistics are based off them, and hence things like Trauma Threshold and Memory tests would be identical for all egos sleeved in the same morph. If you're not too worried about added complexity, you could just give morphs their own, relevant stats. I'd recommend looking at [i]Call of Cthulhu[/i] for ideas, since it and EP are thematically and mechanically similar, but the gist of it is that all morphs can be given SIZe and STRength stats, where STR and SIZ together determine the melee damage bonus, and SIZ determines the to-hit modifier of a morph. Transhuman average STR would be around 15, and average SIZ 13. Amusingly enough, if you adopt the BRP system of determining hit-points based on the average of SIZ and CONstitution, and multiply through by 2.5 to determine get DUR, the EP custom of adding +5 to a morph's statistic, when applied to CON, results in a +6 to DUR. When rounded to +5, this is the difference between a Flat/Splicer and an Exalt. (Amusingly, if we apply this to a Fury, and assume they're somewhere between 13 and 18 in SIZ, their CON would be between 10 and 15-ish. Doesn't that sound a lot like a common morph aptitude modifier?)

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@-rep +2 C-rep +1

Tue, 2012-11-13 13:47

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Probably the easiest "fix" is

Probably the easiest "fix" is to decide that your average morph (splicer?) has size '1'. A reaper say has size 2, a cat size .1, a swarm bug would be .001. You multiply your melee damage (and related things) by your size multiplier.

Tue, 2012-11-13 16:53

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Making Aptitudes the

Making Aptitudes the exclusive domain of a morph is Extremely Problematic (IMO). For one thing; how do you deal with Infomorphs and Simulmorphs? They're the most common morphs in the solar system and it's a bad thing to dictate that everyone has exactly the same mental capacities. The second thing is how do you spend moxy to increase an aptitude? Do you spend your downtime and Rez Points exercising to increase your morph's SOM and then throw that Rez away when you egocast? It's difficult and dissatisfying for new players to understand that [u]Aptitudes are not Physical Attributes[/u] (at least it was for me when I picked up the book that first time and learned that there is no Strength Attribute.) However that is the simple fact. SOM is not Strength, Savvy is not Beauty, Agility is not... well, once you get to explaining agility as a mental attribute you start tripping over SOM and thing's get weird. Regardless, the best *Fix* for the issue is to flip your role play perspective in the way that the game writers demand. You [u]is[/u] your mind not your body, it's a basic philosophy of transhumanism. (IMO) I'm wondering how we know or why we think that a reaper is bigger than a fury. I've never really had that perception. I think that there could be additional data, possibly additional rules but these need to be handled very carefully. The best way is probably to annotate specific morph's descriptions and stats, where applicable, as opposed to making a broad rule that will still break in the instance of extremes. Example; In the OP, the proposed +10 to hit/larger size category makes the "Cat vs. Whale" problem even worse. Allowing a cat to damage a whale with a melee attack is obviously wrong. Reducing that DV to 2 base points, while increasing the odds of an extra 5 DV with an Excellent Success is even wrongerer (IMO). This proposal does nothing but Ensure that the cat will automatically do average damage of 7 points per attack, (Enough to wound the average biomorph). Having said that. I do think it would be fun if the physicality of morphs, their individual strengths and *especially* their relative limitations, were expounded upon in the rule set. The only Physical stats in the game; DUR and SPD, (and the derivative DB) aren't really enough to give me a "feel" for my morph. Morphs with extreme physical differences; cats, whales, vehicular shells, ROUS's, should probably be "partitioned" from normal morphs with rules that apply only to them in the same way that mechanical morphs have been.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Tue, 2012-11-13 18:57

RustedPantheress RustedPantheress's picture

Take a look at my Expanded

Take a look at my Expanded Sizes table, which doesn't add any new numbers really, and is a logical expansion of the current sizes (Small, large, larger). Don't give attack bonuses for size, so a small does not get +10 to hit while their opponents get -10 to hit. The opponent just gets a -10 to hit, that's it. Just take a look at around, we have fixes for a lot of stuff hanging around here (such as Force Value for morph strength). Just keep in mind: the character is not the morph, your stats show how well you use the morph.

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Wed, 2012-11-14 17:42

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

I like your table Panthress.

I like your table Panthress. I'd probably refer to it if an extreme size situation came up in my game. Also, I fully recommend Decivre's FV rules but they don't satisfy the CatvsWhale extremes. And though I have stated reservations CB's morph Attribute system is solid if you don't mind the major implications to the game and setting. I just wanted to post my thoughts on the OP cause those ideas were so closely parallel to what other's have done.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Fri, 2012-11-16 15:33

Ferretz

Size matters

Well, as the rules are written, being larger comes only with a disadvantage of being easier to hit. I'm thinking about giving larger morphs some kind of damage bonus against smaller morphs and smaller morphs a damage penalty against larger morphs. I'll have to playtest it a bit. As for the morph vs ego discussion, we came up with another idea. I agree that the giver Aptitudes over to the morphs is problematic, but the argument against having morphs only give modifiers is equally problematic. Who would win in a race: the ego of an atlete in a Neotenic morph, or the ego of a child in an Olympean morph? The optional rule we're going to playtest works like this. Instead of a modifier to the ego's morph, each morph has a value of 10 plus the modifier for every Aptitude. When sleeving in a morph, use the best of either the morphs Aptitude, or the ego's aptitude. In the above example, the ego of the child would get a lot of use out of the Olympean morph. The atlete would also push the Neotenic to the brink, but since the maximum SOM Aptitude of the Neotenic is lower, he would not use his full potential. -E.

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"I can’t talk to a man who bears an undeserved animosity towards ferrets."

-GRAHAM CHAPMAN (1941-89)

Fri, 2012-11-16 19:23

#10

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Ferretz wrote:Who would win

Ferretz wrote:
Who would win in a race: the ego of an athlete in a Neotenic morph, or the ego of a child in an Olympian morph?

That's a good point; I forget movement rate as being a morph attribute. Probably the neotonics movement as a walker needs to be lowered/capped the way synthetics are. Either that or consider that a neotonic is really nothing like a child and really does have a movement of 4/20 Let us know how your play test works out. About size penalties/ bonuses. This is already part of core. p193 Combat modifiers "Large target (Car sized) +10, Very large target (side of a barn) +30" I like the fact that what you *don't* get, with the rules in the book, is a bonus for being small.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sat, 2012-11-17 04:47

#11

Ferretz

Well, in the core rules,

Well, in the core rules, everyone gets +10 to hit Large opponents, right? And -10 to hit Small opponents. When the Large opponent attacks a smaller opponent, the only effect is that he is harder to hit. As far as I know, there are no bonus to being Large. But if a Fenrir combat synthmorph had stepped on a cat sized morph, there should be some kind of additional damage, I think, compared to if it had stepped on the toe of another Fenrir morph. Likewise, the cat sized morph shouldn't be able to seriously hurt the Fenrir with it's claws unless it was very lucky in some way. We're going to try to have the to hit bonus or penalty be a damage bonus/penalty towards opponents that are larger or smaller. So a Fenrir stepping on a cat would have +10 DV, if it could hit him. A cat scratching a Fenrir would have -10 DV. That also goes for a car scratching a regular human sized morph. As for the morph vs ego rules, we've been testing it, and it works very well. It does change how you relate to the morph bonuses to Aptitudes. Instead of being a bonus to increase the ego's aptitudes, shores up your weaknesses. So we're going to 10+modifier for a morph or the ego's own unmodified aptitudes, whichever is higher. We think that this better represents the ego's ability to push the morphs own abilities, while still have a safe lower limit. In this variant of the rules, the only place a character would use his ego's unmodified aptitudes (which can be below 10) would be as a Infolife. -E.

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"I can’t talk to a man who bears an undeserved animosity towards ferrets."

-GRAHAM CHAPMAN (1941-89)

Sun, 2012-11-18 14:53

#12

Ferretz

Update

Here's the latest version of my take on Egos, Morphs and Aptitudes, copied from my Word file. :) Introduction These optional rules are intended to address some of the problems in the core Eclipse Phase rules concerning the physical characteristics of morphs, and to remove some of the strange situations that can come up with morph and ego combinations. Care has been taking to make these rules as compatible as possible to the core Eclipse Phase rules. Morph Aptitude Minimums In this optional rule, rather than giving bonuses to an ego’s Aptitudes, each morph generates a set of minimum Aptitudes for the ego. When an ego is sleeved in a morph, his Aptitudes will be either his own Aptitudes, without bonuses from the morph and to the maximum for the morph in question, or 10 + the morph’s modifiers for each Aptitude, whichever is higher. This optional rule will limit some of the higher Aptitudes, and rather than adding the bonuses straight to the ego’s Aptitudes, this rule gives the ego certain minimum Aptitudes based on what kind of morph is used. When using augmentations that give bonuses to Aptitudes, this bonus applies directly to the morph’s minimum Aptitude scores. Morph Strain If the ego has an Aptitude lower than the minimum Aptitude of the morph he is sleeving, he can still use it, but not without strain to the morph. For each 5 points of Aptitude, or fraction thereof he is below the minimum, he is in risk of damaging the morph when making skill rolls tied to that Aptitude. If the result of a die roll is over 100 minus the difference between the morph’s minimum and the ego’s Aptitude, the morph takes one point of Durability damage for each five points of this difference. Example: An ego with Somatics of 15 is sleeving an augmented Olympean morph. This morph has a total Somatics minimum of 30 which is 15 above the ego’s Somatics. When rolling for skills based on Somatics, any result above 85 would result in 3 point of Durability damage due to strain from the ego’s inability to use the morphs inherent abilities. This rule was added to limit characters wanting to use very powerful morphs to shore up weaknesses in their own egos. -E.

—

"I can’t talk to a man who bears an undeserved animosity towards ferrets."

-GRAHAM CHAPMAN (1941-89)