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Game balance?

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Sat, 2010-03-13 05:37
#1
krank krank's picture
Game balance?
Just a quick question: Is there any kind of systematic balancing of player characters? IE, if two players create two different characters, is there anything in the system which ensures they end up with roughly the same level of competence, overall? I'm looking at backgrounds, and I can't seem to get a grip on any such balance. Backgrounds give different bonuses and disadvantages etc... but if there's a balance, it eludes me. I guess I've just become used to straight point buy systems, where these things are more or less transparent...
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Sat, 2010-03-13 06:32
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Game balance?
krank wrote:
Just a quick question: Is there any kind of systematic balancing of player characters? IE, if two players create two different characters, is there anything in the system which ensures they end up with roughly the same level of competence, overall? I'm looking at backgrounds, and I can't seem to get a grip on any such balance. Backgrounds give different bonuses and disadvantages etc... but if there's a balance, it eludes me. I guess I've just become used to straight point buy systems, where these things are more or less transparent...
All of the backgrounds are worth ~30 to 40 CP (other than Infolife, whose value can vary depending on skill selection), and all the factions are worth 40 CP. As for character balancing in general, well, odds are you'll either wind up with characters who are utterly incompetent, or Captain Cyborg and his Super Commandoes. The corebook gives pretty good advice regarding what skills are neccessary, though.
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Sat, 2010-03-13 06:40
krank krank's picture
Re: Game balance?
nick012000 wrote:
All of the backgrounds are worth ~30 to 40 CP (other than Infolife, whose value can vary depending on skill selection), and all the factions are worth 40 CP.
Thanks, that's more or less what I needed to know. =) As long as there's at least a semblance of similarity, some basic idea of balance...
nick012000 wrote:
As for character balancing in general, well, odds are you'll either wind up with characters who are utterly incompetent, or Captain Cyborg and his Super Commandoes. The corebook gives pretty good advice regarding what skills are necessary, though.
Note that I'm not just talking about combat. Combat is about 2-3% of roleplaying to me; all skills can be put to use. Especially as I tend to have at most 1 battle in something like 5-6 meetings...
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Sat, 2010-03-13 15:47
Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Game balance?
Well, since backgrounds and factions give more or less the same amount of points, and all characters have the same amount of free building points, they all should be relatively balanced if they know what they are doing. Other thing is how well they use those skills they have, but they are more or less balanced out.
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Sun, 2010-03-14 17:47
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Game balance?
Sepherim wrote:
Well, since backgrounds and factions give more or less the same amount of points, and all characters have the same amount of free building points, they all should be relatively balanced if they know what they are doing. Other thing is how well they use those skills they have, but they are more or less balanced out.
While Factions tend to be very well balanced, backgrounds vary quite wildly. The breakdown is as follows: Backgrounds [list][*]Drifter: 40 points [*]Fall Evacuee: 32.5 points [*]Hyperelite: 40 points [*]Infolife: 10 points (This ignores the alteration to purchasing computer and social skills, which can potentially raise the value of this background as high as 218 points; or make it as low as -335) [*]Isolate: 39 points [*]Lost: 40 points [*]Lunar Colonist: 40 points [*]Martian: 40 points [*]Original Space Colonist: 40 points [*]Re-Instantiated: 35 points [*]Scumborn: 40 points [*]Uplift: 60 points[/list] Factions [list][*]Anarchist: 40 points [*]Argonaut: 40 points [*]Barsoomian: 40 points [*]Brinker: 40 points [*]Criminal: 40 points [*]Extropian: 40 points [*]Hypercorp: 40 points [*]Jovian: 50 points [*]Lunar: 40 points [*]Mercurial: 40 points [*]Scum: 40 points [*]Socialite: 40 points [*]Titanian: 40 points [*]Ultimate: 40 points [*]Venusian: 40 points[/list] Do note, however, that these breakdowns do not take into account any factors which do not have a specific point value... namely morph restrictions, the potential disadvantages of restricted bonus skill points, and anything else that can't be equated in CP. This could be key to why some of the design decisions were made. Edit: Fixed my errored calculations.
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Sun, 2010-03-14 07:21
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Game balance?
Decivre wrote:
Sepherim wrote:
Well, since backgrounds and factions give more or less the same amount of points, and all characters have the same amount of free building points, they all should be relatively balanced if they know what they are doing. Other thing is how well they use those skills they have, but they are more or less balanced out.
While Factions tend to be very well balanced, backgrounds vary quite wildly. The breakdown is as follows: Backgrounds [list][*]Drifter: 40 points [*]Fall Evacuee: 27.5 points [*]Hyperelite: 40 points [*]Infolife: 10 points (This ignores the alteration to purchasing computer and social skills, which can potentially raise the value of this background as high as 218 points; or make it as low as -802) [*]Isolate: 39 points [*]Lost: 40 points [*]Lunar Colonist: 22 points [*]Martian: 22 points [*]Original Space Colonist: 22 points [*]Re-Instantiated: 30 points [*]Scumborn: 40 points [*]Uplift: 60 points[/list]
Umm, you seem to have miscalculated some of these. A more accurate list is as such: [list][*]Drifter: 40 points [*]Fall Evacuee: 32.5 points (Moxie costs 15 CP) [*]Hyperelite: 40 points [*]Infolife: varies [*]Isolate: 39 points [*]Lost: 40 points [*]Lunar Colonist: 40 points (no clue how you got 22) [*]Martian: 40 points (again, no clue how you got 22) [*]Original Space Colonist: 40 points (did you think the bonus to the Networking skill was a bonus to Rep or something?) [*]Re-instantiated: 35 points [*]Scumborn: 40 points [*]Uplift: 60 points (45 if you want to play in something other than an uplift morph)
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Sun, 2010-03-14 14:36
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Game balance?
nick012000 wrote:
Umm, you seem to have miscalculated some of these. A more accurate list is as such: [list][*]Drifter: 40 points [*]Fall Evacuee: 32.5 points (Moxie costs 15 CP) [*]Hyperelite: 40 points [*]Infolife: varies [*]Isolate: 39 points [*]Lost: 40 points [*]Lunar Colonist: 40 points (no clue how you got 22) [*]Martian: 40 points (again, no clue how you got 22) [*]Original Space Colonist: 40 points (did you think the bonus to the Networking skill was a bonus to Rep or something?) [*]Re-instantiated: 35 points [*]Scumborn: 40 points [*]Uplift: 60 points (45 if you want to play in something other than an uplift morph)
Fall Evacuee is only worth 27.5 points. I'll show you the breakdown +10 Pilot Skill (10 points) +10 Networking skill (10 points) +1 Moxie (15 points) -7500 Credit (-7.5 points) As for the Lunar/Martian/OSC, I did calculate thinking it was Rep, so my mistake. You were right about those ones. I didn't count morph limitations for such backgrounds as the uplift because that's only a limitation if you don't want that morph at creation. I simply left it out of my calculations. If you wish to utilize it in your calculations, then it also affects Hyperelite and Lost backgrounds as well as the Jovian, Socialite and Ultimate factions.
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Sun, 2010-03-14 14:40
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Game balance?
Double-post
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Sun, 2010-03-14 16:43
krank krank's picture
Re: Game balance?
Thanks for the great lists, guys! Just the kind of thing I was planning on making =) Anyways, I've got an idea: Provided I want characters to be balanced, at least in the sense that they're all worth the same amount of points - if I add another 80 CP to the amount available in character creation, and let the players actually pay for the advantages etc that come with Factions and Background, this would accomplish my goal, no? Example: Say someone wanted to play a Re-instated Ultimate. The Re-instated package is worth 35 CP, and the Ultimate package is another 40 CP. Total cost is 75, which means the player gets an extra 5 CP to play with. Another example: A 60-point Uplift package and a 60-point Jovian package (Hey, it might happen...). 120 points in all. The player gets 20 CP less to play with. Comments, ideas, suggestions?
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Sun, 2010-03-14 17:00
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Game balance?
Decivre wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
Umm, you seem to have miscalculated some of these. A more accurate list is as such: [list][*]Drifter: 40 points [*]Fall Evacuee: 32.5 points (Moxie costs 15 CP) [*]Hyperelite: 40 points [*]Infolife: varies [*]Isolate: 39 points [*]Lost: 40 points [*]Lunar Colonist: 40 points (no clue how you got 22) [*]Martian: 40 points (again, no clue how you got 22) [*]Original Space Colonist: 40 points (did you think the bonus to the Networking skill was a bonus to Rep or something?) [*]Re-instantiated: 35 points [*]Scumborn: 40 points [*]Uplift: 60 points (45 if you want to play in something other than an uplift morph)
Fall Evacuee is only worth 27.5 points. I'll show you the breakdown +10 Pilot Skill (10 points) +10 Networking skill (10 points) +1 Moxie (15 points) -7500 Credit (-7.5 points) As for the Lunar/Martian/OSC, I did calculate thinking it was Rep, so my mistake. You were right about those ones.
You only start off with 5,000 credits, not 10,000. That'd explain why they were both off by 5 points.
Quote:
I didn't count morph limitations for such backgrounds as the uplift because that's only a limitation if you don't want that morph at creation. I simply left it out of my calculations. If you wish to utilize it in your calculations, then it also affects Hyperelite and Lost backgrounds as well as the Jovian, Socialite and Ultimate factions.
This is true, though Uplifts have it slightly worse than all of those but the Jovians as far as crappy morphs go; two of the three available are basically just splicers that look a bit different.
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Sun, 2010-03-14 18:13
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Game balance?
nick012000 wrote:
You only start off with 5,000 credits, not 10,000. That'd explain why they were both off by 5 points.
You are correct, my apologies. I corrected my chart appropriately, and now have to re-do the character I've created. :D
nick012000 wrote:
This is true, though Uplifts have it slightly worse than all of those but the Jovians as far as crappy morphs go; two of the three available are basically just splicers that look a bit different.
I disagree. They have one morph capable of flight, and one morph with multiple arms (which is arguably one of the most popular morphs in the game). To that end, I guarantee that more uplift morphs will be released with future products, meaning that their limitation will gradually allow for more and more options. It isn't nearly as restricted as, say, the Lost morph restriction... which gives them a single morph option.
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Sun, 2010-03-14 18:02
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Game balance?
Decivre wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
This is true, though Uplifts have it slightly worse than all of those but the Jovians as far as crappy morphs go; two of the three available are basically just splicers that look a bit different.
I disagree. They have one morph capable of flight, and one morph with multiple arms (which is arguably one of the most popular morphs in the game). To that end, I guarantee that more uplift morphs will be released with future products, meaning that their limitation will gradually allow for more and more options. It isn't nearly as restricted as say the Lost morph restriction... which gives them a single morph option.
Yeah, the Neo-Avian is basically a splicer that can fly. Just like anyone else can with a Low-cost jet-pack. ;) The Neo-Octopus is easily the best of them; it's on a par with most of the Exalt variants. The other two were basically splicers, though, and my point was less about the number of morphs you're restricted to and more about the quality of those morphs. The Futura is actually very good if you're playing a psychic; it's the only morph with +10 WIL, and morph bonuses are the only way to improve that stat.
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Sun, 2010-03-14 18:23
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Game balance?
nick012000 wrote:
Yeah, the Neo-Avian is basically a splicer that can fly. Just like anyone else can with a Low-cost jet-pack. ;) The Neo-Octopus is easily the best of them; it's on a par with most of the Exalt variants. The other two were basically splicers, though, and my point was less about the number of morphs you're restricted to and more about the quality of those morphs. The Futura is actually very good if you're playing a psychic; it's the only morph with +10 WIL, and morph bonuses are the only way to improve that stat.
Jetpacks require a suit to use, are fuel-limited, and may only take off in Mars gravity or less. Neo-avians can fly in Earth-level gravity (even if its limited flight), travel so long as their arms don't tire, and allow the user to utilize the Flight skill instead of the Pilot skill. It's significantly more advantageous [i]except[/i] in vacuum environments. But yes, the Octomorph is the obvious best of the three. Still, the fact remains that more uplift options will come with future release. Futuras are futuras however, and the Lost will likely not get a new secondary option. While it may be one of the best psi options (I argue the Fury is better, since your choosable aptitude bonus can be stacked onto your already-existing +5 WIL), it's only a valid argument if the player is built around Psi Assault and Control uses of their powers... a senser or level 1 psi user will not get as much utility out of the body and may want another.
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Fri, 2012-10-26 20:14
lbeaumanior lbeaumanior's picture
Decivre wrote:
Decivre wrote:
[*]Infolife: 10 points (This ignores the alteration to purchasing computer and social skills, which can potentially raise the value of this background as high as 218 points; or make it as low as -335)
How do you get those stats? The rest of the calculations I get, but even having a low COG and buying the computer skills at max, I still can not get the 218 points, could you clarify?
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Fri, 2012-10-26 20:15
lbeaumanior lbeaumanior's picture
Decivre wrote:
Decivre wrote:
(I argue the Fury is better, since your choosable aptitude bonus can be stacked onto your already-existing +5 WIL)
This is wrong AFAIK you can not stack to an already augmented stat. Perhaps in a previous printing, but in the third one, the rules are clear about it.
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Sun, 2012-10-28 02:18
Decivre Decivre's picture
lbeaumanior wrote:How do you
lbeaumanior wrote:
How do you get those stats? The rest of the calculations I get, but even having a low COG and buying the computer skills at max, I still can not get the 218 points, could you clarify?
My math was off. Maximum total value of that background is actually 203. I apparently forgot to factor in the bonus to Interfacing when determining the total cost discount of skills.
lbeaumanior wrote:
This is wrong AFAIK you can not stack to an already augmented stat. Perhaps in a previous printing, but in the third one, the rules are clear about it.
Yeah, that's always been the case. Apparently I had a serious brainfart at some point two years ago, while I was posting in this thread.
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