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Terraforming Mars

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Sun, 2012-10-14 22:40

Mr. Wenz

Terraforming Mars

So as I was reading Sunward, Mars kept bugging me. Yes its not the terraformed paradise that the core book made it out to be, however they never say how they keep the hydrogen from escaping from the atmosphere. Mars use to be wet and perhaps earth like, however it cooled and in the process lost the bulk of its atmosphere. [Also the planet is bathed in hard radiation, like 200 times the ambient amount found on earth now. This is due to the lack of a protective magnetic field. That makes ruster morphs bad ass, or basic bio mods very cool I am not sure which lets you ignore 900 millisieverts per year.] This section is in error the 18ish month flight out to mars would expose the crew to 400-900mSv, I misread the data points as ambient radiation per year on the surface of Mars. I find that the meem of Terraform Mars is so common now days no one ever questions if we can only how can we. *Edited for accuracy

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Heno Wenz, Liberty City Jovian Citizenship Lawyer [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/osc_userbar.png[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/jr_userbar.jpg[/img] The Sapient Union [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/splice_userbar.jpg[/img]

Mon, 2012-10-15 00:37

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

I've had similar questions.

I've had similar questions. I'd be interested to know where you get the number 900 seiverts. That's more radiation than I was aware of and could be a concern. However; by 10AF the atmosphere has been thickened enough to reduce that number a bit at the surface. Most of the radiation is in the form of UV and the occaisional solar proton event and that can be blocked by a heavy coat and aluminum coated windows so radiation isn't the primary concern. In addition EP has a bit of majitech called a healing vat that can regrow a body from just a head (apparently it only takes two weeks). So a little skin cancer isn't a big problem. Atmospheric loss is also probably not a huge issue. That happens on a scale of geologic time. Considering that transhumanity is able to change the composition of the atmosphere at all, in the 50 year time span that they've been working on it, they're probably easily able to keep up with the loss by importing and liberating more hydrogen. The part that kills my suspension of disbelief is the fact that they've been able to increase atmospheric pressure from .6 kPa (the mean surface pressure now) to 20kPa (the pressure at which Rusters can breath) in just 50 years. Also the fact that Rusters can breath an atmosphere of >80% CO2. That's much more amazing than healing vats. :) [edit] Here's a wiki link on the MAEIE mission which shows the annual dose to be 4-500mSv In Orbit. I havn't found any numbers on surface radiation but that number should be lower. For one thing it will be halved because you are shielded by a plantet on one side. Then there's the atmosphere with a density of .2bar. So you could probably bench mark it at about 150-200mSv/a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Radiation_Environment_Experiment#Results Here's a wiki about teraforming Mars. Interesting that most techniques of heating and increasing the density of the atmosphere also increase CO2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_terraforming

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Mon, 2012-10-15 00:59

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

The astronomy course on

The astronomy course on planets I took once bummed me out because of how dead Mars is, without geological activity to refresh the atmosphere, it'll all go away eventually, making the entire endeavor sort of bizarre and futile. But I don't question it too closely because having a crazy wild west setting is too useful.

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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Mon, 2012-10-15 02:12

Justin Alexander Justin Alexander's picture

Everything we could ever

Everything we could ever possibly do would be "bizarre and futile" if your qualifier is "it would go away again in the time it would take Mars to lose its atmosphere again after terraforming" (i.e., millions of years). AFAIK, the lack of a magnetic field around Earth would not doom us all to radiation poisoning: It's actually the atmosphere itself which blocks most of the sun's radiation. Similarly, most of the higher radiation level on the surface of Mars is due to the lack of an atmosphere. As you add atmosphere, the problem starts to solve itself. The long-term risks associated with radiation exposure -- like an increased risk in cancer -- are also pretty much irrelevant given the medical technology of EP.

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The Alexandrian

Mon, 2012-10-15 02:27

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

I just was told what sounds

I just was told what sounds conflicting, both that the magnetic field is what diverts deadly solar winds and radioactive death, and that without tectonic activity, no volcanoes to refresh atmosphere, so causing the planet to have one compatible with transhuman life is a futile project. But I am not an astronmy expert, so I can only recall what I heard.

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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Mon, 2012-10-15 05:10

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

It's not the entire planet

Only some sectors of Mars are being terraformed. Valles Marineris, Elysium Chasma, are some examples. While pressures are no longer lethally low that you blood would boil in your veins anywhere on Mars, but outside zones like craters, even the Rusters and Alpiners morphs will need masks

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Mon, 2012-10-15 09:12

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

please give me a reference on

please give me a reference on that, Quincey I agree with what you're saying but I (still) can't find a reference for where rusters can and can't breathe. Alpiners don't need masks. They don't have enhanced resperation they have oxygen reserve and resprocytes

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Mon, 2012-10-15 13:20

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

Re: air pressure on

Re: air pressure on terraformed mars From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraform_mars#Carbon_dioxide_sublimation It seems releasing stored carbon dioxide (as CO2 ice on the south pole) would increase atmospheric pressure to 30 kPa. This is probably what has already been done on Mars in Eclipse Phase. Also, it brings the temperature high enough so that liquid water is flowing. "Carbon dioxide sublimation There is presently enough carbon dioxide (CO2) as ice in the Martian south pole and absorbed by regolith (soil) around the planet that, if sublimated to gas by a climate warming of only a few degrees, [b]would increase the atmospheric pressure to 300 millibars (30 kPa or 4.35 PSI)[/b], ,[6] comparable to twice the altitude of the peak of Mount Everest. While this would not be comfortably breathable by humans, it would eliminate the present need for pressure suits, melt the water ice at Mars's north pole (flooding the northern basin), and bring the year-round climate above freezing over approximately half of Mars's surface. This would enable the introduction of plant life, particularly plankton in the new northern sea, to start converting the atmospheric CO2 into oxygen.[citation needed] Phytoplankton can also convert dissolved CO2 into oxygen, which is important because Mars's low temperature will, by Henry's law, lead to a high ratio of dissolved CO2 to atmospheric CO2 in the flooded northern basin."

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"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Tue, 2012-10-16 01:33

Justin Alexander Justin Alexander's picture

@uwtartarus: It's not that

@uwtartarus: It's not that you're wrong, it's just that you're exaggerating the direness of the situation. Would the lack of a magnetic field allow more harmful radiation from the sun to reach us? Yes. But it's not a "taking a walk through the suburbs of Hiroshima on August 6th, 1945" thing. It's a "over the course of your lifetime, you'll be 2-3x more likely to get cancer" thing. Given the medical tech available in the EP universe, that means it's practically irrelevant. Would the lack of a magnetic field allow the solar wind to begin wearing away our atmosphere? And would a lack of volcanic activity prevent the atmosphere from being refreshed? Yes. But it will take millions of years. So you spend a couple hundred years terraforming Mars and then you get a livable planet for a few million years. Is that a "futile effort"? Not really.

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The Alexandrian

Tue, 2012-10-16 02:25

#10

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

Ah, well if it isn't that bad

Ah, well if it isn't that bad, then excellent. I have kind of already agreed to set aside any evidence contrary in order to have such a cool setting as Wild West Mars so I suppose it is good to know it is not as dire as I thought.

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Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Thu, 2012-10-18 00:11

#11

Mr. Wenz

Re-Terraforming Mars

Sorry for the delay I have been researching in response to the comments. I agree that solar wind erosion of the atmosphere works on a geologic time scale and is not overlay important as a hindrance. I disagree that radiological cancer is a non issue due to planed obsolescence and related cultural issues in the system. My current track is to finish looking into the lack of a magnetosphere. Additionally atmosphere as a generic presence retarding radiation seems suspect with out the presence of specialized layers. I thank everyone for the feedback.

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Wed, 2012-10-17 11:38

#12

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

One problem in early Martian

One problem in early Martian terraforming is the lack of ozone layer. UV looks like it is a bigger problem for life than radiation: you get about as much as on Earth, but even more at the damaging UVB wavelengths. http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~davidc/papers_mine/Cockell_Catling2000.pdf While a thicker semi-terraformed atmosphere likely absorbs more, it still lets through a lot. The big problem is the lack of ozone layer. If they use supergreenhouse gases to heat the planet then ozone will be rapidly broken down due to the fluorine and chlorine. Again, this can be solved by tweaking biology a fair bit, but unaugmented morphs better pack their sun lotion.

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Wed, 2012-10-17 23:49

#13

saleemuae

Fashion

Red Colony is about the collective knowledge of the entire world & mindless procedure,coming together to colonize & terraform Mars.It will take sweeping dreamers & meticulous planners to organize every aspect of this field.

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