Mental Speed, Parallel Processing, and Ghostrider Modules

Sun, 2012-10-07 13:30

#2

Tyrnis

My personal inclination would

My personal inclination would be to require a separate cyber-brain for each of the egos in order to allow them to have the cortical stacks and additional processing power necessary for the mental speed and parallel processing augmentations, rather than allowing them to augment a ghost rider module, which is only designed to run an ego as an infomorph.

Sun, 2012-10-07 18:58

#3

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

From the ghostrider

From the ghostrider description "The character may limit the ghost-rider’s access, or may allow them direct access to their sensory information, thoughts, communications, and other implants." Parallel Processing has "...allowing them to borrow processing power from other linked egos to solve intellectual problems". If only the cyberbrain is being boosted by Mental Speed, it's hard to imagine there being processing power to borrow for 4 additional egos. So I'd rule you'd need one Mental Speed augmentation for each ego. As to allowing ghostrider modules to be upgraded like they are cyberbrains, as a GM I personally wouldn't sweat it and would allow it. However, I think insiting on a cyberbrain for augmentations is more self-consistent with how the rules in EP are presented. EDIT: Tyrnis, it seems from my reading that cyberbrains and cortical stacks are distinct. The confusion is probably the fact that every single synthmorph description has both. A cortical stack *is* a prerequisite for the Multi-Tasking augmentation, however, but not Mental Speed.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Sun, 2012-10-07 23:36

#4

Tyrnis

Cyberbrains and cortical

Cyberbrains and cortical stacks definitely are distinct, yes, but based on the description of a cortical stack, an ego needs to be running in a bio or cyber brain in order to be backed up to one. And hmm, looking back over it, you're right that there's no mention of mental speed requiring a stack -- I must have been getting it and multi-tasking confused.

Mon, 2012-10-08 19:18

#5

Friend Computer Friend Computer's picture

Thanks for your input. The

Thanks for your input. The reason that I'm asking because the ghostrider module network combined with mental speed and parallel processing is letting my player end up with between 39 and 48 complex mental actions per action turn (depending on what Speed their meatbody is running at), all with a +30 teamwork bonus. If I say no, that brings them down to between 13 and 16 complex action per turn without the teamwork bonus, or if I rule that ghostrider cloudless can be augmented they shell out the extra character points for adding mental speed to each ghostrider module and keep their near-simulspace action speeds. Any ideas on how to challenge a character like that?

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Mon, 2012-10-08 20:17

#6

Erenthia

Personally, I wouldn't let a

Personally, I wouldn't let a single mental speed upgrade give extra actions to every ghostrider module, and I'd suggest that if they want to go all the way with this, they need to get one for their Muse as well. But if they pay for the Mental Speed upgrades, the cyberbrains, AND the parallel processing upgrade I'd say give it to them. That's extremely expensive and they aren't going to be able to take multiple physical actions, which is how I'd challenge them, with a character with lots of physical Speed. My question is, what are they going to [em]do[/em] with all these actions? Also, let them know they can still get the teamwork bonus without Parallel Processing if they have each ego take up an action to provide the bonus.mm PS Can you break down where all the actions are coming from? I'm too tired to add all that up. Edited for fixing

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Mon, 2012-10-08 21:09

#7

Friend Computer Friend Computer's picture

Complex Action arithmetic

Sure thing: Meatbody: 4 Speed (1 base + 1 MRDR + 2 Neurachem) with +2 Complex Mental Actions per Action Phase (Mental Speed) = 12 Complex Actions Muse: 3 Speed (3 base for Infomorph) +2 Complex Mental Actions per Action Phase (Mental Speed) = 9 Complex Actions Ghostrider Module x3: 3 Speed (3 base for Infomorph) +2 Complex Mental Actions per Action Phase (Mental Speed) = 27 Complex Actions For total Complex Actions of (12 + 9 + 27 = ) 48 Complex Actions per Action Turn. While only 4 of them are Physical Complex Actions, drone piloting or hacking or small squad tactics with 44 Mental Complex Actions per Action Turn is still quite significant.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/titan_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/pro_userbar.jpg[/img] The Computer wants you to be happy. Happiness is mandatory. Failure to be happy is treason. Treason is punishable by death.

Mon, 2012-10-08 23:39

#8

Erenthia

While I certainly thought

While I certainly thought about hacking, the idea of remote piloting a drone (perhaps ones that he owns) never occurred to me. Two things come to mind with regard to challenging him. One simply is to use Neo-Synergists, but a much bigger deal will be Will tests vs things that cause Trauma. He will have to make 4 of them for each one the other players have to make. Then he'll have to track their mental health separately. You could even give one of them a mental disorder that completely fucks up the "smooth group dynamic" he's expecting from his four selves. Give them different mental problems and ask him to roleplay the group. Give two of the Megalomania one Morphic Dysphoric Disorder and another an inferiority complex. It does require a balance though. One player can't hog the spotlight.

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Mon, 2012-10-08 23:43

#9

Mr. Wenz

error in the math

Each ego is caped at speed 4. That brings the max for the example to 20.

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Mon, 2012-10-08 23:57

#10

Friend Computer Friend Computer's picture

Nope

The Mental Speed advantage offers +2 Complex Actions per Action Phase. Each point of Speed offers an Action Phase, for a maximum of 4 Action Phases per Action Turn, with 1 Complex Action per phase base. An infomorph with Speed 3 gets 9 Complex Actions per turn.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/titan_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/pro_userbar.jpg[/img] The Computer wants you to be happy. Happiness is mandatory. Failure to be happy is treason. Treason is punishable by death.

Tue, 2012-10-09 00:14

#11

Friend Computer Friend Computer's picture

I like the crazy

The Trauma weakness could turn out to be fun, especially if any of the forks start to get paranoid. The character is a Jovian, so the legality of their augmentations is somewhat murky. They are perfectly allowed to have them as a spy, but explaining them to a local authority is just a headache (or four of them), and requires the authority to ask questions before shooting.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/titan_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/pro_userbar.jpg[/img] The Computer wants you to be happy. Happiness is mandatory. Failure to be happy is treason. Treason is punishable by death.

Tue, 2012-10-09 00:17

#12

Tyrnis

Mr. Wenz wrote:Each ego is

Mr. Wenz wrote:
Each ego is caped at speed 4. That brings the max for the example to 20.

The cap for speed is 4, yes. The issue is that the way mental speed is written, it provides extra complex mental actions during an action phase -- ie, a speed one character with mental speed gets 1 unrestricted complex action and two additional mental complex actions that all take place on the same action phase (before characters with Speed 2+ get to act.) It doesn't actually influence speed. And since it provides the extra mental actions during every action phase -- as opposed to action turn -- it actually does mean that a Speed 4 character can take 12 total complex actions, with the restriction that 8 of them have to be mental. So really, the issue comes down to the individual group's feelings on character optimization (because this is very much playing the system for every mechanical advantage you can get.) This is one of those issues that I think needs to be discussed by the group as a whole -- if the GM and all the players are good with it, and the player isn't going to be hogging the limelight, by all means go for it and have fun. If that player is the only one optimizing like this and the player isn't careful to share the limelight, it would be very easy for it to derail the game.

Tue, 2012-10-09 01:31

#13

Erenthia

Yeah, I really would like an

Yeah, I really would like an official work on if Mental Speed is supposed to be multiplicative with Speed the way it currently seems to be. I'm cool with it if the devs say that it is, but I'd really like to know for sure.

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Tue, 2012-10-09 07:23

#14

prototyper prototyper's picture

I came up with 9 ....

I recently considered this, and I came up with 9 complex actions, 8 of which had to be mental. (Which I feel is perfectly adequate, and already tickles my GM "munchkin sense".) (I am sure that this is well understood, but you can only use physical OR mental speed augmentation at a given time. Just making the statement, no offense intended.) Firstly, I believe "Action Phase" is a typo, and "Action Turn" was meant instead. I too would like some clarification on that, because, as a player, the implications make me salivate with hyper-brain delight, lol. So: - Multiple Personalities: +1 Complex Action (Mental) - Mental Speed OR Multitasking (but not both) for each Personality Partition: +2 Complex Actions (Mental) At this point, we have a total of 6 complex actions, only 1 of which may be physical. - Ghostrider Module: Houses an infomorph, who have a speed of 3, all non-physical So, my tally is 9 complex actions, 1 of which may be physical. Further, if they want that teamwork bonus, each ego is going to have to contribute a complex action to the task. This means that you could get a total of 3 complex mental teamworked actions with the +20 bonus (+10 for each additional assisting ego). I can't see anywhere where it says that characters can have more than 1 Multiple Personality module or ghostrider module. As the GM, you of course may rule otherwise. I would rule that each Partition will have to buy Mental Speed or Multitasking (or both, using only 1 at a time) separately. All of this at a cost of a mere 15,250 credits (3 High Costs and a Low, using average costs). Definitely the prefect Sleeving Day gift for a friend with a Menton (or Hyperbright!!) Morph.

Tue, 2012-10-09 12:45

#15

Tyrnis

prototyper wrote:

prototyper wrote:
(I am sure that this is well understood, but you can only use physical OR mental speed augmentation at a given time. Just making the statement, no offense intended.) Firstly, I believe "Action Phase" is a typo, and "Action Turn" was meant instead. I too would like some clarification on that, because, as a player, the implications make me salivate with hyper-brain delight, lol.

While this would be a reasonable house rule to make, as things stand now, that's all it would be. The description of mental speed specifically mentions doing multiple things in the amount of time it would take other people to do one thing, and when it references not being compatible with other extra action abilities, the one it references is multi-tasking, which _also_ provides additional complex actions during an action phase as opposed to an action turn, not additional speed, so isn't useful as a basis for assuming that it isn't meant to work each action phase. Personally, I'd be very inclined to use a similar house rule, so don't take this as my not agreeing with the intent behind it, I just disagree with the assertion it's well understood that you can't use extra physical and mental actions simultaneously (even if that would make things easier.)

Quote:
Further, if they want that teamwork bonus, each ego is going to have to contribute a complex action to the task. This means that you could get a total of 3 complex mental teamworked actions with the +20 bonus (+10 for each additional assisting ego).

That would normally be true, but the Parallel Processor augmentation specifically negates the need for teamwork to take an action so long as three or more egos (the muse wouldn't count) are linked together.

Quote:
I can't see anywhere where it says that characters can have more than 1 Multiple Personality module or ghostrider module. As the GM, you of course may rule otherwise. I would rule that each Partition will have to buy Mental Speed or Multitasking (or both, using only 1 at a time) separately.

While I _would_ limit the mental augmentations to an ego sleeved in a cyber- or bio-brain, as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, personally I've got no issues with multiple ghostrider modules. The rules don't specify that you _can't_ have more than one, and it's basically just an internal hard drive. That's the primary reason I wouldn't be inclined to allow augmentations like mental speed to one. I'd understand completely if a hacker bought multiple ghostrider modules because s/he wanted to carry around a KAOS AI and a security AI in addition to a muse (they could buy multiple ectos and do the same thing with an external device quite easily, and the only practical difference is that the ectos could be taken away.)

Tue, 2012-10-09 13:49

#16

Erenthia

I've also got to imagine that

I've also got to imagine that there are certain skills which alpha forks simply can't provide a teamwork bonus on because they fail to provide a different perspective. Kinesics would be one example and I'm sure there are others. And while I'm also very open to things like having more than one ghostrider module, I'm curious if there isn't a limit to how many they can have. (The character of Danzo from Naruto comes to mind). It's funny, normally I'm constantly pushing the limits of whatever system I'm playing with, but not with EP. It's been discussed in other threads how Speed is an overpowered concept in EP, but with this thread it's starting to feel like Speed (mental or otherwise) is the equivalent of Character Level in games like D&D. And while we're on the topic of things that need clarification, I'd like to know if an infomorph can get program versions of common upgrades, because if not they'd became severely underpowered, especially in late game.

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Tue, 2012-10-09 13:56

#17

Madwand

All those mental actions are

All those mental actions are no big deal. Heck, I've played PCs that would fork themselves *thousands* of times if it was necessary for a mission, and carried around a hundred ectos, or a server inside a vehicle just for that purpose. Mental actions are nice, but what matter are physical actions. Your player could also -- and this would be more useful -- create hundreds of drones with cyberbrains that he could fork into. This is a useful, valid tactic for certain threats. NONE of these tactics are an "I win" button. There are a ridiculous number of counters to this kind of stuff. More numbers from the enemy, for example, or a fight on a different battlefield (what is any of this gonna matter when what's needed is some serious lab work to figure out how to cure or shut down some new virus strain?). These tactics can *help* but what "wins" is clever thinking and application of PC capabilities.

Tue, 2012-10-09 17:47

#18

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

One thing to nerf the drone

One thing to nerf the drone army - robots don't include mesh inserts by default, just access jacks. No wireless by default. Doh! EDIT: I guess you could squeeze an ecto in there for the bigger (2kg+) bots. That at least lowers the extra cost from Medium to Low.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Tue, 2012-10-09 19:39

#19

Erenthia

I have to assume that

I have to assume that piloting a drone means the drone uses some of it's own skills, otherwise no-one would ever sleeve. Instead they'd just load themselves into a ghostrider module and control their morph with a puppet sock. That makes me wonder if being loaded into a ghostrider module makes a person count as an infomorph at all.

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Tue, 2012-10-09 22:42

#20

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

Erenthia wrote:I have to

Erenthia wrote:
I have to assume that piloting a drone means the drone uses some of it's own skills, otherwise no-one would ever sleeve. Instead they'd just load themselves into a ghostrider module and control their morph with a puppet sock. That makes me wonder if being loaded into a ghostrider module makes a person count as an infomorph at all.

Erenthia, have you read the shell jamming, teleoperation, and Ghostrider description in the rulebook? I don't mean to sound like a butthole, but it seems like you haven't. Your comments are unfortunately just confusing the issue(s) further.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Tue, 2012-10-09 23:33

#21

Erenthia

Huh, I missed those. So it

Huh, I missed those. So it seems entirely possible to load your ego into a ghostrider module, and teleoperate your own morph. You'd take a -10 to all actions, but that seems like a small price to pay to gain Speed 3 and make all actions Quick Actions. That is, assuming you count as an infomorph while inside a ghostrider module. Then again I suppose it would be a waste to leave the Morph's cyberbrain fallow. Probably be best to load a beta fork into it.

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.