Born an Ultimate? | Eclipse Phase

Wed, 2012-10-03 22:49

#2

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

It would be model dependant.

It would be model dependant. I'm sure there's plenty of sterile morphs. I sincerely doubt most morph designers would bother with going through the considerable amount of quality assurance to make sure biomods are inheritable, what with crossing an exalt with a bouncer and seeing what happens. So I imagine if two bouncers had a kid they very likely might simply be a bouncer without any biomods. EDIT: Then again the bouncer description is: "Bouncers are humans genetically adapted for zero-G and microgravity environments. Their legs are more limber, and their feet can grasp as well as their hands." EDIT2: If I were a genehacker, I'd err on the side of caution, and either make those genetic hacks recessive or tag them onto an extra chromosome (which would simply get dropped if a bouncer bred with a non-bouncer) in case of mixed parents.

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Thu, 2012-10-04 08:44

#3

Decivre

I can see two people that are

I can see two people that are part of the same clade getting identical biomods for the sake of passing them on to their progeny. So I think it's a feasible option. But as I've mentioned in previous conversations, I doubt that many biomorphs are cross-compatible sexually. There are likely to be significant chromosomal differences between clades, especially for significantly modified organisms like the Remade.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Thu, 2012-10-04 12:37

#4

Jaberwo

Than again the Ultimates

Than again the Ultimates might prefer to be able to survive as a 'species' without growing new morphs out of tanks. The perfect predator in the Darwin kind of way should be able to reproduce, at least some Ultimates might think so. I thought of this when I wondered whether female Remade morphs have breasts. They only would have anything, if it was useful. And evolutionary women have breasts for feeding babies. Although I don't think it is very pleasing to have sex in a Remade, that would just distract and you only realy need to do this if you want to reproduce. Otherwise the time should be used for something useful.

Thu, 2012-10-04 16:58

#5

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Inheritance and fetus

Inheritance and fetus development is more than just DNA. If you put a human embryo in an ostrich egg, you don't get a baby. I'm inclined to say modifications are not inherited (and in fact, may be deadly to the fetus or make reproduction impossible) unless specifically designed otherwise.

Thu, 2012-10-04 19:08

#6

Decivre

Jaberwo wrote:Than again the

Jaberwo wrote:
Than again the Ultimates might prefer to be able to survive as a 'species' without growing new morphs out of tanks. The perfect predator in the Darwin kind of way should be able to reproduce, at least some Ultimates might think so. I thought of this when I wondered whether female Remade morphs have breasts. They only would have anything, if it was useful. And evolutionary women have breasts for feeding babies. Although I don't think it is very pleasing to have sex in a Remade, that would just distract and you only realy need to do this if you want to reproduce. Otherwise the time should be used for something useful.

Agreed. The Remade is a custom-designed morph for an age where natural birth is no longer a necessity... and it's design would conform to those conceits. Furthermore, I would contest that the Remade might even have a larger neuter population than the majority of other biomorphs... with the exception of Winterists, naturally.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Thu, 2012-10-04 22:13

#7

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture

Pods are explicitly called

Pods are explicitly called out as lacking reproductive abilities, which would imply the rest are functionally able to reproduce. I would expect that the morphs designed for long-term environmental adaptation (rusters, bouncers) would be as genetically stable as a splicers or olympians. It's those extreme mods that are questionable IMO. The morph-cross was really not somehting I was that concerned with but it popped in my mind.

—

I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Thu, 2012-10-04 23:00

#8

Decivre

kigmatzomat wrote:Pods are

kigmatzomat wrote:
Pods are explicitly called out as lacking reproductive abilities, which would imply the rest are functionally able to reproduce. I would expect that the morphs designed for long-term environmental adaptation (rusters, bouncers) would be as genetically stable as a splicers or olympians. It's those extreme mods that are questionable IMO. The morph-cross was really not somehting I was that concerned with but it popped in my mind.

Pods are called out as lacking reproductive traits because it's an entire class of morph. Remade isn't a class of morph, it's one biomorph. Not to mention that they never explicitly state that synthmorphs are incapable of reproduction... you're just expected to know this. So I imagine that they aren't always going to list that info. It's very likely that many morphs in the system are sterile. The only question is how many, and which kinds are more likely to be. Besides, just because the Remade has a large neuter population wouldn't mean the Remade is completely sterile. Though one has to wonder what sort of design sacrifices would have to be made to make sure a female Remade has a functional womb.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Fri, 2012-10-05 09:32

#9

Jaberwo

Decivre wrote:Agreed. The

Decivre wrote:
Agreed. The Remade is a custom-designed morph for an age where natural birth is no longer a necessity... and it's design would conform to those conceits. Furthermore, I would contest that the Remade might even have a larger neuter population than the majority of other biomorphs... with the exception of Winterists, naturally.

I'm not sure we actually agree, what you write seems to partially disagree with my post. I do think they reproduce naturaly, meaning 'not in a machine but with their own body'. If you consider only the standard way we do it today natural, and say they (sometimes) use some other way but not with a tank, then we agree.

Decivre wrote:
Pods are called out as lacking reproductive traits because it's an entire class of morph. Remade isn't a class of morph, it's one biomorph. Not to mention that they never explicitly state that synthmorphs are incapable of reproduction... you're just expected to know this. So I imagine that they aren't always going to list that info. It's very likely that many morphs in the system are sterile. The only question is how many, and which kinds are more likely to be. Besides, just because the Remade has a large neuter population wouldn't mean the Remade is completely sterile. Though one has to wonder what sort of design sacrifices would have to be made to make sure a female Remade has a functional womb.

I think there are not so few Ultimates lacking extreamly physical skills and abilities, like scientists. The design sacrifices here would probably be minor enough to affort this piece of built-in hardware, just like a lot of Morphs have implanted active sensors instead of worn equipment. But I don't see it as too problematic with physically optimated Remades either.

Fri, 2012-10-05 10:08

#10

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

If the Ultimates were focused

If the Ultimates were focused on survival via sexual reproduction, wouldn't they be haplo-diploid or functional hermaphrodites? After all, if your survival depends on having another interested ultimate in the same make and model morph as you, but the opposite gender, that sounds just as much a threat as depending on having an exowomb.

Fri, 2012-10-05 10:24

#11

Decivre

nezumi.hebereke wrote:If the

Jaberwo wrote:
I'm not sure we actually agree, what you write seems to partially disagree with my post. I do think they reproduce naturaly, meaning 'not in a machine but with their own body'. If you consider only the standard way we do it today natural, and say they (sometimes) use some other way but not with a tank, then we agree.

Well, I should have been specific in that I agree the Ultimate is an optimized organism that would likely only have parts that are deemed "useful". And to be honest, natural birth is not really a necessity in 10 AF... the exowomb eliminates that need, and significantly improves survivability. There are significant disadvantages to internal gestation, and the exowomb eliminates those while granting all advantages of external gestation.

Jaberwo wrote:
I think there are not so few Ultimates lacking extreamly physical skills and abilities, like scientists. The design sacrifices here would probably be minor enough to affort this piece of built-in hardware, just like a lot of Morphs have implanted active sensors instead of worn equipment. But I don't see it as too problematic with physically optimated Remades either.

It doesn't matter how many minds you have on a problem; unless you have an infinite amount of space to work with, there's only so much you can fit within a designer organism; and sacrifices have to be made for the sake of design. That's the key reason the Remade suffers from the uncanny valley trait: they sacrificed normal human appearance for body optimization and perfection. I imagine that they would likely do the same for such things as traditional childbirth, when it is no longer necessary.

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
If the Ultimates were focused on survival via sexual reproduction, wouldn't they be haplo-diploid or functional hermaphrodites? After all, if your survival depends on having another interested ultimate in the same make and model morph as you, but the opposite gender, that sounds just as much a threat as depending on having an exowomb.

An exowomb actually has significant advantages over biological reproduction. As a wholly synthetic device, they are likely nano-manufacturable... meaning that you can produce one whenever you decide you wish to have children, and never need have it otherwise. Furthermore, internal gestation carries with it a significant number of disadvantages for the mother, as her body must expand and shift to accommodate a newly-growing life (and must be designed for all this as well). An organism that is designed with an exowomb in mind can be designed for optimal physicality at all times. Think of the exowomb as the invention of the artificial human egg. One that carries with it all the benefits of both internal and external gestation. The best of every world.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Fri, 2012-10-05 21:20

#12

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture

Allow me to rephrase the

Allow me to rephrase the question: which features of the more uplifted morphs are genetic traits vs. "standard" implants like mesh inserts & cortical stacks? I'm going to assume that "transgenic human" morphs are capable of reproduction without resorting to the use of an exowomb. That seems like a detail that would have been mentioned.

—

I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Fri, 2012-10-05 22:32

#13

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

kigmatzomat wrote:Allow me to

kigmatzomat wrote:
Allow me to rephrase the question: which features of the more uplifted morphs are genetic traits vs. "standard" implants like mesh inserts & cortical stacks?

I believe the answer to that is; Aptitude maximum, Durability (non gear dependent), and Advantages including aptitude bonuses are part of the morph's Genome. Implants are not genetic or are the product of Xtrasomes.

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sat, 2012-10-06 04:28

#14

Gnothi_Sauton Gnothi_Sauton's picture

Psychological traits of exowombs

I have been thinking about how exowombs would change the relations Transhumans would have to each other since they don't share all genes with their parents (in many cases, not at all) and that Transhumans change morph ("You see, this body is NOT your parent, but I am!"). This leads to the conclusion that all parenthood in EP is just juridical, like an adoption. A little story from my character Joshua Holmqvist (Firewall Sentinel and "Cleaner") from Titan, who nowdays prefer a heavily modified combat synthmorph: "These are my parents, at that hologram there. Well, the morphs they had at that time, that is. We have nothing in common. They ordered me because they wanted to raise a child together. I was at that time a genetic mix with some of their sequences just for "traditional link". I share some views, yes, but most of ME is shaped by AI-teatchers and my Muse Fritz. Fritz means more to me than my "parents". They created me just for their own egos, like a f*cking show-off for the rest of the society; "We are in love and we are going to have a baaaaaby!" ORDER a baby, that is! My mom or dad, what ever, didn't even carry me or delivered me, it was the technician at the lab who did that. Actually, when I think about it, I hate them. They have no right to tell me what to do with MY life. They can't claim any genetical heritage, because there is none. Social? Not even that, because I'm a product of the society and free will. If they now are so eager for me to have a free will they have to take the whole package and stop complaining when I do "bad stuff" in their eyes; It's my Rep, not theirs. And yes, finally, they PAID for me. So unless we haven't implemented slavery again they can't use that as an argument either. They can, for all I care, go and play hide and f*uck together, in any morph they like."

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Sat, 2012-10-06 16:18

#15

Decivre

kigmatzomat wrote:Allow me to

kigmatzomat wrote:
Allow me to rephrase the question: which features of the more uplifted morphs are genetic traits vs. "standard" implants like mesh inserts & cortical stacks? I'm going to assume that "transgenic human" morphs are capable of reproduction without resorting to the use of an exowomb. That seems like a detail that would have been mentioned.

Tough to say. With the use of an exowomb, every component of the body could potentially be inherited... nanoware could be injected into the embryo's bloodstream, and medichines may potentially allow cyberware to be installed and grow with the child. So it's all a possibility. As for the fertility of morphs, it depends on the design. Just because the setting says nothing of fertility does not necessarily mean that fertility is common, expectable, or always available. If anything, it simply means that biomorphs have the [i]potential[/i] to be fertile (or cloned), while pods can never be. And that likely has to do with the design of pods... since they are created piece by piece, it's likely that every part of their body does not have a complete genetic structure. They might not even have a genetic structure designed for birth the natural way; as someone mentioned before, human DNA in an ostrich egg does not a human make. So pod DNA is likely coded for vat-production of body parts alongside the integration of synthetic components, not for regular gestation. While all other morphs might have DNA compatible with regular gestation, that does not mean they are inherently always capable of birth. Hypercorps have a lot of incentive to restrict child-rearing within their products, as every born child is a product they could not sell. But if they can sell reproductive licenses on a per-birth basis, that's profit they can make. As for Ultimates, they strive for physical and mental perfection. Their body choices are inherently based not on development as a group, but development as an individual. And considering all the advantages that exowombs provide, there is likely little incentive for Ultimates of any stripe to go with traditional child-rearing. I imagine it to be as popular as unmodified morphs among the faction. And I think you overestimate the popularity of traditional child-rearing overall. In the sci-fi series Banner of the Stars, the human race has been effectively united under the banner of a transhuman species known as the Abh, who are all about using cutting-edge genetic engineering to ensure optimal children. In that setting, the advantages of exowomb technology are so significant, that traditional birth has become an extreme rarity despite fertility being common (even Abh women that accidentally get pregnant can have their embryos transferred to an exowomb). The only people left to go the traditional route of childbirth are bioconservatives that loathe the Abh and everything about them, and the occasional person that wonders what its like to be pregnant. I see Eclipse Phase being very similar to this.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sat, 2012-10-06 17:45

#16

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

The title of this thread

The title of this thread makes me think of an imaginary rock video with a Bruce Springteen-like tune where the young ultimate sings about rebellion against the effete plutocrats who let the Fall happen and doctrinaire parent-units who listen too much to their Demiurge.

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Sat, 2012-10-06 18:14

#17

Decivre

Arenamontanus wrote:The title

Arenamontanus wrote:
The title of this thread makes me think of an imaginary rock video with a Bruce Springteen-like tune where the young ultimate sings about rebellion against the effete plutocrats who let the Fall happen and doctrinaire parent-units who listen too much to their Demiurge.

Considering how into classical art and philosophy the Ultimates are, one has to wonder how popular 70s and 80s music is among the Ultimates. Because by 10 AF, they aren't just oldies. They're practically classical music.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Fri, 2012-10-19 16:03

#18

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Arenamontanus wrote:The title

Arenamontanus wrote:
The title of this thread makes me think of an imaginary rock video with a Bruce Springteen-like tune where the young ultimate sings about rebellion against the effete plutocrats who let the Fall happen and doctrinaire parent-units who listen too much to their Demiurge.

Thank you - I think I have to steal that for my game's finale. Would you mind if one of your forks helped perform it? :)

—

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Fri, 2012-10-19 21:46

#19

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

The Doctor wrote:Thank you -

The Doctor wrote:
Thank you - I think I have to steal that for my game's finale. Would you mind if one of your forks helped perform it? :)

I would be delighted! :-)

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Sat, 2012-10-20 12:28

#20

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Decivre wrote: Considering

Decivre wrote:
Considering how into classical art and philosophy the Ultimates are, one has to wonder how popular 70s and 80s music is among the Ultimates. Because by 10 AF, they aren't just oldies. They're practically classical music.

NOOOOO! Please god NO! Think about which 70's and 80's music is still popular today. [u]Most[/u] of it needs to die and cannot exist in my Eclipse Phase. I'm having terrible visions of some baddass ultimate merc listening to [url=www.themusicofabba.com]Abba[/url] before a mission. :D (yes they still tour). Even worse a big room full of Ultimates and a disco ball "bogeying down" to Saturday Night Fever. Now, I could see baddass Ultimate psyching for a mission listening to Iron Maiden's "Aces High", Or better yet; [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uq6Ax-zzkQ]The Trooper (youtubelink)[/url] but I bet fewer than 1 in 5 here have ever heard those songs.

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sat, 2012-10-20 21:44

#21

Fion Ravenwater Fion Ravenwater's picture

OneTrikPony wrote:Now, I

OneTrikPony wrote:
Now, I could see baddass Ultimate psyching for a mission listening to Iron Maiden's "Aces High", Or better yet; [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uq6Ax-zzkQ]The Trooper (youtubelink)[/url] but I bet fewer than 1 in 5 here have ever heard those songs.

I think your assessment of just how many people here have actually heard good music is a tad low. My current character listens almost exclusively to Maiden and Pantera.

Mon, 2012-10-22 06:41

#22

Decivre

OneTrikPony wrote:NOOOOO!

OneTrikPony wrote:
NOOOOO! Please god NO! Think about which 70's and 80's music is still popular today. [u]Most[/u] of it needs to die and cannot exist in my Eclipse Phase. I'm having terrible visions of some baddass ultimate merc listening to [url=www.themusicofabba.com]Abba[/url] before a mission. :D (yes they still tour). Even worse a big room full of Ultimates and a disco ball "bogeying down" to Saturday Night Fever.

You want a real nightmare? Imagine a world far into the future, where George Lucas' name is said in the same breath as Shakespeare's or Poe's. Now imagine that Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is required study material in school. You may now go cry in the corner.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Mon, 2012-10-22 13:49

#23

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

http://www.southparkstudios

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/187269/look-out-indy

—

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto

Mon, 2012-10-22 20:44

#24

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

You want a real nightmare?

You want a real nightmare? Imagine a world far into the future, where Shakespeares' name is said in the same breath as Chaucher's or Langland's. Now imagine that A Midsummer Night's Dream is required study material in school. You may now go cry in the corner.

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Tue, 2012-10-23 00:12

#25

Decivre

Arenamontanus wrote:You want

Arenamontanus wrote:
You want a real nightmare? Imagine a world far into the future, where Shakespeares' name is said in the same breath as Chaucher's or Langland's. Now imagine that A Midsummer Night's Dream is required study material in school. You may now go cry in the corner.

I bet you that was something that was actually said in the 16th and 17th century. Shakespeare is pretty terrible. Which is why I used his name. So let's evaluate: George Lucas replaces Shakespeare (both made bland works with a rabid fanbase of people outside of high society). Stephanie Meyer replaces Dante (both made Mary Sue-based stories which ended up becoming surprisingly popular anthologies). E.L. James replaces the Marquis de Sade (too obvious). Hmm… where does Rowling fit in this? Aesop? How about Silverstein or Stephen King? How about comparatives to classic composers? Will Girl Talk be the next Bach?

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2012-10-23 16:47

#26

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Culture

As someone who really enjoys Shakespeare, especially A Midsummer Night's Dream, and who thinks that Star Wars (the original trilogy) is one of the better examples of the Hero's Journey in a modern adaptation, I'm really not sure what to say to you. On the topic of Ultimate children, all morphs with built-in modifications are evidence that you can create children with biomods. How they'll interact as the child grows is hard to say but it's definitely possible. The Ultimates themselves probably use exo-wombs but I'm sure some hardcore individualists like the idea of not being dependent on external technology and hence are either capable of sexual reproduction or self-fertilization. The latter results in clones, the former requires compatible parentage. I'm going to save a spot in this post to add a design for a semi-Exhuman morph that might be used by Ultimates who favour this idea of reproductive compatibility but also want a high-end morph. For others, they'd probably just use Remades. Edit: Alright, here goes. For the record, I'm using the Remade as a base here, since it just saves me a lot of time. [b]Wendigo[/b] To members of the Nativists, to truly exist is to be capable of existing anywhere - not as an individual but as a species. Transhumans are ultimately still social creatures and Nativists, rather than embracing raw individualism, exult in collective work and mutual effort to a transcendental goal; the survival of the species. To that end, this splinter group of Ultimates devised a morph that is entirely biological and yet still capable of outperforming most transhumans in whatever field they care to name. The Wendigo stands at around eight feet tall on average, with a body more resembling a shark than a transhuman. The broad, flattened head merges into a thick neck almost seamlessly, which further broadens with similar gentle flow into a long, almost featureless body. The familiar curves of ribs or thinning of the midsection is lost beneath thick layers of skin and blubber that protect the morph from most any environment. The heaviness gives it an almost lumbering and elephantine demeanor, a perception quickly lost upon seeing such a creature moved to action. For reasons of environmental specialty, various versions of the morph exist that are specially adapted to particular spaces. These include those with large fins for living in watery stations, hairy and squat varieties for colder biomes, and, far more commonly, the standard hairless beasts designed for existing in space. The stats provided here are for a "standard" variety. It is worth noting that, while most Nativists embrace transhuman technology and greatly further modify their morphs, their philosophy demands that, where possible, they choose biomods of a genetic nature that allow them to pass on these traits to future generations. Much of Nativist effort focuses on creating transmissible biological versions of presently cyberware- or nanoware-only modifications. Some Nativists go so far as to shun even cortical stacks and mesh inserts until they can devise some form of biological variant. [b]Implants:[/b] Adrenal Boost, Basic Biomods, Basic Mesh Inserts, Carapace Armor, Chameleon Skin, Circadian Regulation, Claws, Clean Metabolism, Cortical Stack, Eidetic Memory, Endocrine Control, Enhanced Respiration, Enhanced Senses (Sight, Sound, Scent, Direction, Echolocation), Gills, Grip Pads, Long-Term Life Support (Limited), Muscle Augmentation, Neurachem (Level 2), Poison Gland (BTX2), Prehensile Feet, Prehensile Tail, Sex Switch, Temperature Tolerance, Toxin Filters, Vacuum Sealing [b]Aptitude Maximum:[/b] 40 [b]Durability:[/b] 40 [b]Wound Threshold:[/b] 8 [b]Advantages:[/b] +10 COG, +5 SAV, +10 SOM (+15 with Muscle Augs), +5 to two other aptitudes of the player’s choice [b]Disadvantages:[/b] High Metabolism, Monstrous, Social Stigma (Exhuman) [b]Cost:[/b] Not Available For Sale [b]New Trait: Monstrous[/b] Monstrous morphs are something entirely other than human, in a way that is particularly disturbing. While Uncanny-Valley-inducing morphs are somewhat common, and most transhumans have at least seen Uplifts on the mesh, monstrous morphs are something else entirely. They spark some dark feature in the transhuman psyche. Whereas a morph that sits in the Uncanny Valley might induce disgust or disquiet, a Monstrous morph produces an urge to run away very quickly. Monstrous morphs induce a -30 to all social skill checks made in person. Generally, this also applies to Uplifts (due to similar reasons for the fear response) but only at the GM's discretion. It isn't all bad, though; Intimidation checks gain a +20 bonus. +10 CP [b]New Gear: Long-Term Life Support (Limited)[/b] Long-Term Life Support was one of the most brilliant inventions out of the Saturnian system but Nativists rejected the concept for its use of nanotechnology. Instead, they focused on providing a form of symbiotic gut bacterium for the morph to try and supplement its survival time in space. Suffice to say, removing the nanotech component greatly reduced its capabilities, but most Nativists still consider it essential tech. By rapidly burning fats and sugars for fuel when oxygen levels become low or dehydration sets in, this implant enhances the amount of time a transhuman can go without water or air. The result is that a transhuman implanted with this biomod can survive for up to a day without receiving additional oxygen. However, doing so seriously reduces existing fat reserves. Hence, this mod is usually only added to large morphs that can contain the high levels of fat storage needed to sustain it. Even when not in use, morphs with this mod burn energy at a higher-than-normal rate. Cost: High

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[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]

Tue, 2012-10-23 13:15

#27

Decivre

Axel the Chimeric wrote:As

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
As someone who really enjoys Shakespeare, especially A Midsummer Night's Dream, and who thinks that Star Wars (the original trilogy) is one of the better examples of the Hero's Journey in a modern adaptation, I'm really not sure what to say to you.

Nothing wrong with that. I still watch classic episodes of Beavis and Butthead to this day. You can enjoy media without it having to be [i]quality[/i] media.

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
On the topic of Ultimate children, all morphs with built-in modifications are evidence that you can create children with biomods. How they'll interact as the child grows is hard to say but it's definitely possible. The Ultimates themselves probably use exo-wombs but I'm sure some hardcore individualists like the idea of not being dependent on external technology and hence are either capable of sexual reproduction or self-fertilization. The latter results in clones, the former requires compatible parentage.

I disagree. Avoidance of technology dependence is probably looked down upon as a foolish endeavor by the Ultimates. How could you act as the pinnacle of the soldier ethic if you hated technology? Could you imagine an Ultimate shunning weapons and vehicles? I just don't see it happening. When you are trained to use any tool to a significant degree, it starts to feel like an extension of your own body. Using that tool becomes practical instinct, and some might even feel weird without their signature tool. I know I'd feel weird playing an X-Box game without my controller. In that same vein, a pilot's vehicle is little more than an extension of their body. What is a pilot without his vehicle? So if you are a dedicated parent, or a dedicated breeder, why wouldn't you think of your exowomb in the same manner? Exo-wombs don't necessarily result in clones. In fact, there is a lot more versatility with an exo-womb than a traditional one. You can implant any viable (trans)human embryo, no matter the source, into one and expect it to be brought to term. More advanced models might even be able to bring virtually every known organism to term. All with minimal chance of complication or issue, and virtually no chance of miscarriage. That's something that no natural womb could possibly hope to achieve.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2012-10-23 17:21

#28

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

The Problem of Tools

Setting aside the subjectivity of what is "quality media" for the moment, let's focus back on the Ultimates. The desire to be independent of technology doesn't equate to abhorring or shunning technology (not necessarily, at least). The desire to be independent of external factors is a very understandable desire. Being able to free yourself from society's infrastructures is important to a lot of people, as well as being able to pass on that independence to your children. When whatever grants you that freedom is secure in your own body, it more or less means someone has to cripple or kill you to take it away from you, rather than just steal it, without any real benefit to themselves intrinsically, it provides a far greater sensation of security to a person. Plus, as faulty an idea as it might be, some people just like the sensation of being in direct control of their tools than letting others have access to them. Also, the Nativist Wendigo morph is up above. Have some plot hooks for them here. [b]Nativist Plot Hooks[/b] -How Do I Brain: A Nativist async who is working on a way to develop a form of biological mesh insert has suddenly shifted direction of research away from a sort of organic antenna to collecting tissue samples, including buying up a few recovered pieces of morphs from the Jupiter trojans. Firewall has received reports that these tissues are infected with the Exsurgent virus. [More as I think of them]

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Wed, 2012-10-24 13:31

#29

Decivre

Axel the Chimeric wrote:The

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
The desire to be independent of technology doesn't equate to abhorring or shunning technology (not necessarily, at least). The desire to be independent of external factors is a very understandable desire. Being able to free yourself from society's infrastructures is important to a lot of people, as well as being able to pass on that independence to your children. When whatever grants you that freedom is secure in your own body, it more or less means someone has to cripple or kill you to take it away from you, rather than just steal it, without any real benefit to themselves intrinsically, it provides a far greater sensation of security to a person.

But an exowomb isn't really infrastructure, at least no more so than a nanofabricator, gun or home. And I don't see any Ultimate being against any of these things. Even Ultimates have to acknowledge that, despite their sense of independence, that society is a necessity. Otherwise, they would have no need for habitats, a reputation system, or even an organization. These are social structures, and ones that the Ultimates have no qualms with. Besides, one cannot overlook the severe advantages that an exowomb provides over a natural womb. Better protection for the rearing child; no sacrifice of mobility, health or well-being for either parent; a perfect natal environment… to use the traditional method of birth in 10 AF would be as backwards as refusing to use modern medicine on your child today. I just don't see Ultimates forgoing this clearly superior technology.

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Plus, as faulty an idea as it might be, some people just like the sensation of being in direct control of their tools than letting others have access to them.

Of coruse, but as I said above, one could easily use that argument against weapons that aren't installed in your body. And I couldn't see an Ultimate that refuses to use firearms.

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Also, the Nativist Wendigo morph is up above. Have some plot hooks for them here. [b]Nativist Plot Hooks[/b] -How Do I Brain: A Nativist async who is working on a way to develop a form of biological mesh insert has suddenly shifted direction of research away from a sort of organic antenna to collecting tissue samples, including buying up a few recovered pieces of morphs from the Jupiter trojans. Firewall has received reports that these tissues are infected with the Exsurgent virus. [More as I think of them]

The more I read about them, the more the Nativists make sense apart from the Ultimates. The Ultimates tend to have a heirarchical structure centered around their Demiurge, and their views tend to sync mostly with his, varying largely on interpretation. Nativists have a drastically different worldview from the Ultimates, and I see them more as their own group, akin to the Winterists, than as an offshoot of the Ultimates. While the Ultimates share their view of personal perfection, they do not share the clearly biochauvinist views of their faction. But one has to wonder where in the system the Nativists make sense. Part of me says the Inner System; I can see the Nativists owning a small parcel of land on Martian soil, or even simply surviving in its wilds. Or maybe on one of the Saturnian moons. I don't see the Nativists living on a hab… a group like this would want wildlands to tame for themselves.

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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2012-10-24 22:55

#30

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Decivre wrote:But an exowomb

Decivre wrote:
But an exowomb isn't really infrastructure, at least no more so than a nanofabricator, gun or home. And I don't see any Ultimate being against any of these things.

You're not quite getting what I'm going for. Wanting to be capable of being independent of something doesn't equate to shunning it. You can, and still likely would, use those technologies, but you want to be able to choose not to use them for whatever reason. Just because, for example, you want to be a fast runner doesn't mean you shun using a car. While certain luddites would exist, who would shun the use of any tech, they'd be stupid not to use some technology. Otherwise, how would they modify themselves?

Decivre wrote:
But one has to wonder where in the system the Nativists make sense. Part of me says the Inner System; I can see the Nativists owning a small parcel of land on Martian soil, or even simply surviving in its wilds. Or maybe on one of the Saturnian moons. I don't see the Nativists living on a hab… a group like this would want wildlands to tame for themselves.

They would probably exist here and there throughout the system, especially wherever Argonaut groups might be. Sympathizers in Hypercorp labs might exist too, and anywhere else science is done. They attract the kind of people who work on improving things like Temperature Tolerance mods. In terms of where you're likely to see people sleeved in Wendigos in the solar system, though, you'd most likely see them in terrestrial places: The Martian desert, the surface of Titan (likely with further modifications for extreme cold, probably also experimenting with developing a Titanian ecosystem), etc. Nativists would make a great group for Gatecrashers to encounter, especially a Neo-Primitivist faction. Wild places to roam, new lands to settle... Might even be mistaken for aliens by a group of PCs gone exploring.

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Thu, 2012-10-25 00:05

#31

Erenthia

There's a LOT going on in

There's a LOT going on in this thread that I want to respond to as I've been thinking about these issues for a while. First of all, I'm not sure how much culture has changed from the fall. Sure there's a few things that are radically different because of the Fall itself, but virtually all of the people who are in a position to be able to have children in 10 AF would have had their ideas about parenting set down in a pre-Fall world, so it would be helpful to examine what 5 BF would have been like. I'm actually not sure how old the exowomb is, but I imagine society would be pretty split on their use. Like breastfeeding vs formula there will always people who want both. Interestingly, I think a womans pregnancy XP upload might convince a number of preFall women to have a nature birth (and a few men to get uterus' implanted). To that end, I'm pretty damn sure that virtually all morphs are designed with the possibility to breed, but with those functions in a state of hibernation since that would be the most cost effective way of satisfying both crowds. Further, because of all the complications involved I think reproductive systems will be tweaked such that regardless of your morph, you will pass on largely unmodified genes. If a Remade and a Bouncer had a child, the child would either be a flat or (more likely) a splicer. I say splicer since the only real genetic augmentation a splicer gets is the removal of bad genes. (In fact, I think reproductive systems may often carry your original DNA rather than your morph for those who wish to continue their genetic line and have the ability to relate to their children) As far as being born an Ultimate...that's a bit hard to say (good arguments have been made on both sides). If nothing else, it would certainly be cheaper to not have to buy a Remade for your child and Ultimates might not like the idea of their children's minds being twisted in their formative years because of inferior biology. I'm also not aware if an exowomb can [em]grow[/em] anything other than a flat or a splicer. I know they have to be made somehow though. Of course, this is EP. It's entirely possible that the Ultimates are making due with exowombs while they work on some kind of Queen Bee entity that births and protects their children, perhaps even educating them while they gestate. A biological version of a Dr Bot with some side functions like a muse.

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The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Thu, 2012-10-25 10:00

#32

Decivre

Axel the Chimeric wrote:You

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
You're not quite getting what I'm going for. Wanting to be capable of being independent of something doesn't equate to shunning it. You can, and still likely would, use those technologies, but you want to be able to choose not to use them for whatever reason. Just because, for example, you want to be a fast runner doesn't mean you shun using a car.

But running is something that a person does regardless of whether they have a car or not. A better analogy would be shoes… a convenient technology that has all-but replaced its alternative, barefoot outdoor travel, for all but those who are impoverish or forgo it for uncommon reasons. (or biology, so to speak). Exowombs replace wombs in almost every conceivable way, being superior in almost every conceivable way, and the only reason I could see people forgoing such tech would be due to monetary issues or philosophical opposition. And I [i]really[/i] don't see any branch of the Ultimates having a philosophical opposition to such groundbreaking and superior technology. I would compare it to the cortical stack or mesh inserts for sheer potential of social pervasiveness.

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
While certain luddites would exist, who would shun the use of any tech, they'd be stupid not to use some technology. Otherwise, how would they modify themselves?

Are we talking system-wide or among the Ultimates? I [i]highly[/i] doubt there are any luddites among the Ultimates. Their insular society and sense of philosophical unity probably makes any person who is anti-technological simply unacceptable among the fold. An insular, pro-technological group like the Ultimates would abandon any aspirants showing such tendencies immediately.

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
They would probably exist here and there throughout the system, especially wherever Argonaut groups might be. Sympathizers in Hypercorp labs might exist too, and anywhere else science is done. They attract the kind of people who work on improving things like Temperature Tolerance mods. In terms of where you're likely to see people sleeved in Wendigos in the solar system, though, you'd most likely see them in terrestrial places: The Martian desert, the surface of Titan (likely with further modifications for extreme cold, probably also experimenting with developing a Titanian ecosystem), etc. Nativists would make a great group for Gatecrashers to encounter, especially a Neo-Primitivist faction. Wild places to roam, new lands to settle... Might even be mistaken for aliens by a group of PCs gone exploring.

I can see that. I still say that I doubt many Nativists, despite their technological leanings, would live in habitats very often. Nativists likely see nature as a sort of crucible, which culls the weak and tests the strong. Being in a climate-controlled home for them is like going a month without exercise for a gym fanatic. I bet portable lab equipment is very popular among their ranks, just so that they can live nomadic natural lifestyles while still continuing their genetic research.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sat, 2012-10-27 22:09

#33

kigmatzomat kigmatzomat's picture

Cultural adaptation to technology

Cultural adaptation to post-singularity technology is going to be pretty .... sketchy. Let's face it, splicers have existed for only 3 generations (<70 years), the exomwombs for cloning have been around for 2 generations (<50 years) and resleeving has only been possible for a generation and a half (<30 years). Those first-gen splicers (BF60-40) had to be in vivo, with gene mods applied to their "flat" birth bodies. Second-gen splicers could have been born splicers from natural gestation or gengineered in the womb. I'd have imagined that following the appearance of resleeving, any "personal" morph upgrades would be gengineered clones. I don't see the high-and-mighty using someone else's face or genetics. Post-fall, any body is better than no body, but that's a matter of expedience over cultural preference. Plus technology is vulnerable to TITAN meddling. Just imagine a TITAN-infected exowomb. Yeah, those shudders take a while to stop. Following the Lost Generation fiasco, I'd imagine that there's a strong backlash, resulting in some variant of the "Naturalist" philosophy. The more survivalist types may even see a natural birth as a sign of purity. Opposing this is the insanity of having a 2yro with combat mods. Gaaah. I keep thinking of the Nietzchians from "Andromeda".

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I'm not rules lawyer, I'm a rules engineer.

Sun, 2012-10-28 02:50

#34

Decivre

kigmatzomat wrote:I'd have

kigmatzomat wrote:
I'd have imagined that following the appearance of resleeving, any "personal" morph upgrades would be gengineered clones. I don't see the high-and-mighty using someone else's face or genetics. Post-fall, any body is better than no body, but that's a matter of expedience over cultural preference.

Actually, while I do think that keeping certain aspects of your original genetics in all future bodies might be a common thing for the wealthy for those who have the skills to produce their own bodies, I actually think that cheaper face sculpting is a more likely alternative for people that purchase a morph. Specific morph models likely have damn-near-identical genetics, and most customization likely occurs on a superficial, rather than genetic, level.

kigmatzomat wrote:
Plus technology is vulnerable to TITAN meddling. Just imagine a TITAN-infected exowomb. Yeah, those shudders take a while to stop. Following the Lost Generation fiasco, I'd imagine that there's a strong backlash, resulting in some variant of the "Naturalist" philosophy. The more survivalist types may even see a natural birth as a sign of purity.

To be fair, biology is just as vulnerable to TITAN meddling, if not more so. And while there is likely mistrust of accelerated aging programs due to the Futura project, I highly doubt a tested and reliable technology like the exowomb is mistrusted in a similar manner, at least outside groups like the Jovians and bioconservatives. The exowomb has been around longer, within the context of the setting, than the internet has. There has probably been one entire generation, at least, to have lived with exowombs in a ubiquitous manner. And while older generations may be distrustful of them, but most of them are likely no longer having children… many of them will have already raised kids of their own, and most of them have probably lost some or all of those children during the Fall. The Ultimates are a special breed unto themselves. They are decided [i]not[/i] technophobic, and far more willing to push the limits of human modification than most groups (other than perhaps the scum). So I simply don't see them being averse to the use of exowombs, especially considering all the benefits they provide in contrast to their minimal drawbacks.

kigmatzomat wrote:
Opposing this is the insanity of having a 2yro with combat mods. Gaaah. I keep thinking of the Nietzchians from "Andromeda".

I have no doubt that a group like the Ultimates is indoctrinating children into the fold, well before they are ready to be full members. And while you might see equipping a child with combat mods as a bit mad, I personally see the possibility to permanently rid us of the Amber Alert system. Few would dare to kidnap a child with eelware and nanotoxic skin.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2012-10-30 15:41

#35

Thampsan

Re: earlier comments about

Re: earlier comments about genetic compatibility between morphs isn't it possible that smart body-designers who are looking for a specific result would add some sort of component that would not only ensure/unlock compatibility but also a set of end-result conditions. That is to say that instead of just dumb fire genetic material impregnation, why not pre-program one's own genetic material or have some sort of nanite system that would hijack and alter the target's reproductive system for the purposes of achieving the pregnancy and life-form you want. Obviously there are physical limitations, different species, gestation duration, fetal dimensions, etc. For female Remade a partner wouldn't be needed at all, chances are good that they could produce asexually and use some sort of randomizer program (if desired) or select for the specific traits to pass on, or even just clone oneself. But I don't see why a Remade who, for whatever reason, would want to reproduce with a Spicer, Fury, etc would face problems with compatibility if we think about the problem like this. Obviously hyper-corps or protective body designers would oppose such 'brute force' methods of cracking a body's very specific reproductive DRM, but then the Ultimates don't really give a damn about stupid IP problems. Side note; conversely morphs who have anti-nanite measures whether optional or in-built would complicate coupling between Remade and other Human-form morphs. Likewise reproductive system-less morphs would be immune. By and large though I don't see why a Remade would want to procreate with non-Remade, but the option should be there.

Tue, 2012-10-30 16:46

#36

NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture

How would you do quality

How would you do quality assurance on this process in a reasonably short time frame to have a decent turnaround time? I'd guess changes and improvements in morph technology would move too quickly to test this, especially if you buy the premise that a pod takes 18 months to grow, and a regular biomorph 3 years. I'm sure you could get a biomorph that is designed around some open standard of compatible reproduction, but you'd likely pay quite a bit extra for it (and it would more likely be an older/obsolete model in addition).

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"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto