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Moxie: default vs re-roll

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Lalande21185 Lalande21185's picture
Moxie: default vs re-roll
Lately I have been listing to a lot of EP actual play podcasts (see [url=http://www.eclipsephase.com/node/3452]this[/url] thread) and I have noticed that all the APs I have listened to so far have replaced the moxie system with a re-roll based system. Wondering why, I decided to compare the two systems: [b]The Default System[/b] The default system works by upgrading your results to something better by flipping, upgrading a success to a critical, or ignoring a critical failure. This system never makes things worse and each expenditure is guarantied to improve the situation somehow. Because of this moxie can be used both 'offensively' (improving a successful roll) and 'defensively' (improving a failed roll). [b]The Re-roll System[/b] This system replaces the ability to upgrade a success and ignore critical failures (and sometimes flips?) with the ability to re-roll a test. Because this system can make things worse, players will only use moxie 'defensively' (why risk a success by re-rolling?). Even when flips are allowed, the players that use this system are so accustomed to using the 'defensive' re-rolls that they will seldom use moxie 'offensively' (going by the APs). [b]Comparison[/b] Both systems allow the players a form of 'narrative control'. However the players are much worse off using the re-roll system because the re-roll doesn't always succeed and the system cannot be used offensively. Additionally, because the rules were written using the default system, things like Psychic Stab, grappling, and beam weapons are much less effective when using the re-roll system. For these reasons I see no real reason for using the re-roll system over the default system and several reasons not to, which makes me wonder: why is everyone using re-rolls? Am I wrong? Is the re-roll system actually better than the default system? Am I missing something important in my comparison?
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Decivre Decivre's picture
It's a holdover mechanic.
It's a holdover mechanic. Many people are used to re-rolls as an aspect to traditional gaming. Flipping is a fairly unique mechanic to Eclipse Phase. I can't even remember another game that uses something similar, though admittedly I don't play many other percentile-based games.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
What I've mostly seen is
What I've mostly seen is people adding re-roll to the list of possible moxie uses, giving an opportunity for success when having rolled a critical failure or a pair of dice that can't be flipped to make success, at the risk of rolling a critical failure. Then again, I haven't listened to those last two yet, something i plan to correct over the next week.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
NewAgeOfPower NewAgeOfPower's picture
Rerolls can save you when
Rerolls can save you when sometimes flip-flopping wouldn't, but for optimized/specialized characters, flip-flopping is statistically stronger. I personally enjoy Auto!Crit with Mox, although only one of my NPCs had Mox, and didn't get to use more than one against my players.
As mind to body, so soul to spirit. As death to the mortal man, so failure to the immortal. Such is the price of all ambition.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Honestly, my group was just
Honestly, my group was just doing it wrong. We all had it in our head that rerolling was an option (as Decivre said, probably a holdover from some other games we've played), and it wasn't until I played some EP games at GenCon that I found out that's not actually correct. Whoooooops.
NewAgeOfPower NewAgeOfPower's picture
My first playgroup thought re
My first playgroup thought re-rolls were an option too; a hold-over from WH40k/FATE systems.
As mind to body, so soul to spirit. As death to the mortal man, so failure to the immortal. Such is the price of all ambition.
Decivre Decivre's picture
It's a pretty common mistake
It's a pretty common mistake I see in games. Beyond just Moxie, I've even seen rolls done wrong (I've had to correct at least one person at every new playgroup that 00 does not count as "100"). And even beyond this game, it took our group a full month after switching to 4th Edition Shadowrun to stop asking for the target number. Humans are creatures of habit.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
babayaga babayaga's picture
Decivre wrote:
"Decivre" wrote:
Flipping is a fairly unique mechanic to Eclipse Phase.
Note quite. Flip-flop is a mechanic first introduced by Unknown Armies (from Atlas Games), with exactly the same name. Unknown Armies seems to have influenced a number of Eclipse Phase mechanics -- which is good, since Unknown Armies is a truly brilliant game.
Decivre Decivre's picture
babayaga wrote:Note quite.
babayaga wrote:
Note quite. Flip-flop is a mechanic first introduced by Unknown Armies (from Atlas Games), with exactly the same name. Unknown Armies seems to have influenced a number of Eclipse Phase mechanics -- which is good, since Unknown Armies is a truly brilliant game.
Well, as I said, I don't have much experience with percentile-based systems. But of the ones I've played (Conan, Marvel, Basic Fantasy, Fallout PnP), this is the first I've seen to use it.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]