In EP we have different kind of economy working side by side, Old-Transition-New, and based on different kind of currency, money-rep. For game purpose i reseached the topic and i suggest to classify the powers of EP on the base of the nature of their currency:
-[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money] Fiat Money[/url]: based on the exixtance of a strong central government (Jovian Republic, Lunar-Lagrange Alliance, Planetary Consortium, Tharsis Legue and (strangely) Titanian Commonwealth)
-[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_money]Representative Money[/url]: the value of the currency (rep in this case) is based on the capability of provide object-services by the users (Anarchists and Autonomist)
-[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter]Barater[/url]: no money at all, direct exchange of goods-servives (seem strange but in a barater economy foreign money can be considered a good), can be based on legal contracts (Extropia)
Some peculiarity of this currency:
Fiat Money: the central government can create money for pay what it need, so por pratical purposes it can buy evrithing it need even if it's incredibly expensive for evryone else, if used for military or infrastructural productions this don't create inflaction (Keynesian economics). The amount of money in the economy is know and can change only trought government action.
Representative Money: the ammount of money in economy is not fixed but vary with the capability of the actors, if for some reason noone can provide goods-services the evvective money is 0 (you can ave the money in your pocket mut it have 0 value). Is very difficult to start money intensive projects, because you bust back the entire value or that evryone trust you.
Barater: is possible to have a barater in transhuman because the record keeping and contracts are digitalized. With AI assistance can be created chains of transactions for pay what you want with something the other want (i need a gun, he need 1kg of gold, the AI say that if sell my boots to A he sell something to B thet sell gold to the guns guy that sell me the the gun)
Comments welcomed!
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The Money in EP setting
Sun, 2012-08-26 11:37
#1
athanasius
The Money in EP setting
Sun, 2012-08-26 12:33
#2
BOMherren
athanasius wrote:Fiat Money:
It's not just a government that can do this. Crack open Rimward and read how the Mutualist bank on Extropia issues promissory notes. I imagine a lot of different organizations, companies and even individuals do that, especially out in the outer system, including every or almost every Extropian.
Emphasis mine.
I think this is an inaccurate characterization of the @-list. Most pings and dings probably have to do with regular social interaction, and not productive activity. "Oh my TITANs, that was just the funniest video! Ping, good Sir, Madam or Other!"
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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/aa_userbar.jpg[/img]
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/open_userbar.jpg[/img]
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/immort_userbar.jpg[/img]
Sun, 2012-08-26 13:43
#3
athanasius
BOMherren wrote:It's not just
Yes bur Extropia as barater economy don't need money, the Mutualist Bank as say the name is a mutualistic agreement, you must accept the note if you have agree but noone else have formal obbligation to accept it. Evry saler that make dicount note make a currency, you can trade them and are backed by the original saler but even this is an agreement between you and the third party that accept the note.
Fiat Money Economy need a government because it enforce the use and take them as tax.
In EP the Representative Money work a bit differently than today, before you give the good-service than take the money (rep), today the exchange is simultaneous.
"Oh my TITANs, that was just the funniest video!"= entertainment service =service
"Ping, good Sir, Madam or Other!"= more rep= payment
An other exemple:
"i need you make me a favor, i need that this packet is delivered to Jonn at Titan"
"ok, i go"(delivered in 3 weeks)= service
"Jon have just comunicated the arrival, a Ping at your favor and a good review for your service!"= payment
Sun, 2012-08-26 14:57
#4
750
BOMherren wrote:athanasius
Never mind that fractional reserve banking basically acts as a printing press (especially when it is perverted as in present day, where the lag between lending and reserve balancing is sometimes as much as 30 days).
Sun, 2012-08-26 16:33
#5
BOMherren
athanasius wrote:Yes bur
But neither do you have to accept PC credits. You can just say "no thanks, I'd rather not make that trade," and then suggest some other currency to trade instead. The only thing is you have to have PC credits to pay your taxes.
Okay, yeah. I'll grant you that semantic point. If you brighten someone's day in a minor way, then that is a service, even if it's often unintentional.
I would imagine the existence of so many parallel, competitive currencies would somewhat put a halt to that. If every other Autonomist has his Muse managing and speculating on a basket of currencies, and one or a few of those currencies start inflating, then it should be really easy to tell who's inflating and when. Even private investors in the inner system could keep their savings in an inflation-resistant basket of currencies, managed by a Muse or dedicated investment AI.
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[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/open_userbar.jpg[/img]
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/immort_userbar.jpg[/img]
Sun, 2012-08-26 16:47
#6
DivineWrath
I think the OP is trying to
I think the OP is trying to too hard to fit the economies in Eclipse Phase into narrow categories. The problem is, that many societies in EP are trying new forms of economies. With the development of nanofabrication technology, and the fact that many people in the other system managed to prevent themselves (for the moment) from being crushed under the capitalist iron boot of the inner system, there is an opportunity to try new things.
The reputation economy seems to be very unlike anything we've ever dealt with before. I need to do a review before I comment on it thought. Be back soon.
Sun, 2012-08-26 18:02
#7
athanasius
Sorry, iv' made an omission:
Sorry, iv' made an omission:
-[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy]gift economy[/url]: in this economy there is'n the "quid pro quo" of normal economy, you give goods-services for free.(possible in some habitats or clusters)
I'v not cited this before because can be confused with reputational economy, the difference is the assumpion in rep economy that you can ask favors on the base of your rep: for true gift economy the gift isn't linked with a way to obtain something specific, you give it and others give you something but you can't ask something specific, you must take what they choose.
This is the way the government enforce his currency, you must pay tax with his currency, so you must have them and then work for obtain them.... The other element is military-police-law, if you don't pay i have the force for take from you the tax as good, labor or intellectuap propriety.
As rule no real economy is a pure system, in the same "economic zone" there is a dominant economy and the other are ancillar, if you give a gift it's a gift economy transaction", if you exchange a favor it's barater, etc.
Sun, 2012-08-26 18:21
#8
750
As we are already discovering
As we are already discovering, increased automation results in the usual Wage > consume > produce > wage rotation of capitalism grinds to a halt. This because the wage part drops out when there are no workers in the traditional sense (tho here may be some AIs around).
And if one introduce machines that can break down and reassemble things on the molecular, never mind atomic, level, things gets even more hairy. Anything with the right base elements can be turned into food, as long as the machine has some kind of energy source (and in theory any kind of heat gradient can be used for that, tho the steeper the better).
Never mind the real deep end like the Titanian Huldr. It reads like a walrus on legs with a extended blather and a nanotech variation of a dialysis machine. This creation could take up permanent residence on the south pole with little or no outside assistance once bootstrapped.
This in contrast to the amount of up front production and stockpiling that needs to be done for any lengthy stay there today.
It is like a throwback to the frontiersman living as a hunter/gatherer.
The basics of ye old pyramid of needs are so taken care off that having human interactions become more important than ensuring food and shelter.
Sun, 2012-08-26 19:34
#9
Arenamontanus
athanasius wrote:- Fiat Money
As others have pointed out, there is no need for a central government to do this. In fact, quite a lot of real life anarchocapitalists strongly support the right of *anyone* to start a new currency, whether based on some fungible goods like gold, true fiat ("because I say it is worth this much!") or more complex things (like the rep-like IOUs used by the transhumanist guerilla in one game). Guess why there were so much interest in bitcoin recently?
I think it is true that it is easier to get a fiat currency rather than a backed currency going if you are a big power concentration. But currency type and economic system doesn't have to be strongly linked. One could imagine a major power supporting a rep system, or small anarchies using desired resources (bullets, cigarettes, nanotech feedstock) as the basis of a currency.
Currently in real life having multiple currencies is a headache (unless they happen to be neat multiples; on Åland they take both kronor and euros, but the euro is informally pegged to 10 kronor). With digital money and a bit of AI this is not a problem: you don't need to see if your money is in Extropian Rands, credits or ComExp Scrip (although you better give good instructions to your Muse about your views on losses due to exchange rates or tricky currencies like the Nova York nuevo). So while Extropia would be a nightmare with our current tech, in EP it is fairly easy and transparent. The same is true for many other EP economic systems: they rely on extreme hightech solutions.
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Mon, 2012-08-27 17:58
#10
athanasius
Arenamontanus wrote:As others
I'm sure that ancillary fiat moneys are simple to create and can wotk, this appen even today (the coupn from supermarket, your exemples and others), the problem is the enforcment of use: if the economy is in expansion they work, if there are problems they explode as evryone search for resources no one trust others and money lose value.
I suggest an hipotetical stress test, the condition is simple, an isolated habitat is posed under siege by hostile forces then the economy is closed no in of resources then:
-Government Fiat Money: the persons search for the now scare resouces (no 100% reclaimis possible)and begin an inflaction, the gov print money for begin military projects, the rate of inflaction is countered by the expenses, reach 100% employment rate. (the money don't loose value because the gov back it this is called "war economy" and used by germany during WWII)
-Rep Economy: the persons search for the now scare resouces, the money is based on rep and under siege military action and heroism is good for make rep, there is a shift toward the found for military for break the siege. (the "first good than money" work of rep economy assure that there isn't an inflaction of prices, the powering of military is benefical for the comunity and is self founding)
-No Government Fiat Moneys: Here there is a problem, if the habitat have multiple money but is coesive it form a "government" so consider it as Government Fiat Money, if the money compete then... the persons search for the now scare resouces, there is a wild balcanization of the habitat and money lose value as the supporters lose power within the habitat, exchange become difficult between factions and can begin a resource race for back the value of the currency. (during the crisi the fiar money is backed by the force of military instead of by the need of tax!)
The Fiat Money create the [utl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage]Seigniorage[/url], as "being the difference between interest earned on securities acquired in exchange for bank notes and the costs of producing and distributing those notes": the organization that print rhe money give them to other at tneir nominal value but pay only the material production cost.
This economic power is totally absolute, it produce unlimited ammount of money, if your print is unbacked you need the power to enforce it's use or a complete trust of user in you, the government use also the services they provide (healt care, road, pubblic utility, etc) as backing...
the oldest fiat money was chinese notes of the first empire, for western world the first true Fiat Money appared after the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Shock]Nixon shok[/url] that ended the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard]gold standard[/url], before the US$ was backed by gold and used as [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_money]reserve money[/url] trought the world, today is backed by oil, OPEC sell oil for dollars...
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_%28disambiguation%29]Econoy[/url] don't need money, agreement betwen people is the essence of the economic exchanges, the money is useful only as tool of agreement! Different tools are more suited for different works, so are the money, i'm triing to define the effect of them on society..