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fusion power soon?

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It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
fusion power soon?
Last I heard, they hadn't even hit breakeven at fusion power R&D, now I just saw this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Prophet710 Prophet710's picture
Losing containment
Granted my knowledge of this piece of physics is extremely rudimentary (as in pre-school level), would there be a reason to fear losing containment on a plant like this? Such as losing containment in a nuclear fission facility could broach extreme destruction.
"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
No. Fusion is pretty benign
No. Fusion is pretty benign because it doesn't rely on a chain reaction. If containment breaks you get a non-functioning reactor, not a nuclear explosion. Some boom might happen because strong electromagnetic fields, coolants and hot stuff meet in the wrong ways, but that is all. There might also be some escape of short-lived isotopes like tritium. If it is a "dirty" reactor some parts of the casing will have been irradiated and will be radioactive, but the core is not particularly "hot". No doubt you can have nuclear accidents with fusion, but they are unlikely to be as nasty as fission accidents, where parts of the core may lie around still fissioning.
Extropian
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Nobody has reached breakeven
Nobody has reached breakeven with fusion yet. Breakeven being the thermal energy released equals or exceeds energy input. However, when you realize most steam boilers are only going to get around 33% efficiency, you'll want to achieve a 3 to 1 to get "whole system feedback" breakeven. ITERs goal is to get 10 to 1. I believe the current record is 16 megawatts out for 22 megawatts in for a smaller reactor design similar to ITER. The physicists are hoping their math is correct and everything scales upwards as expected. Considering previous R&D attempts had hoped to exceed breakeven, I'd hazard a guess ITER probably won't meet their 10 to 1 goal.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
athanasius athanasius's picture
fusion variants
ITER it's not the only program that is working on nucleat fusion, we have a lot of works at about the same stage or better: -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion]inertial confinement[/url] -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_machine]Z pinch[/url]a form of inertial confinement -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_fusion]dense plasma fusion[/url] -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LENR]LENR (aka cold fusion)[/url] -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_fusion]sonofusion[/url] The first 3 have good background work and in some case (z machine) have reach hipotetical fusion temerature... LENR are less accepted but there are [url=http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/]a lot of data[/url] that suggest this as a viable way, at best [url=http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/]near commercial[/url].... In EP universe all can coexixst used for different purpose: -magnetic (ITER), inertial and dense plasma use high temperature plasma wich make them useful as space drive and thermally efficient for power generation, radiation hazard are a drawback -LENR and sonofusion are of simple construction, have less rad hazards, seem capable of using H and D without use of He3 and can be scaled down, drawback seem low themperature (less efficiency for energy generation) and for LENR use heavy elements In my setting nuclear battery use a form of LERN for safety, i feel strange the use of radioactive elements for portable battery, even with good shielding the U needed for charge clip of a railgun in some hout seem enought for kill anithing biological with few minute of exposure. Alpha and Beta emitters are a lot inefficient as fuel for this purpose.
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
There's nuclear batteries for
There's nuclear batteries for guns? I don't remember reading about those. You'd need like 24 hours of trickle charging just to get 4 shots for your rifle. Anyway, nuclear batteries are probably much better in Eclipse Phase. You can contain high energy x-rays using diamond as mirrors: http://www.aps.anl.gov/Science/Highlights/Content/APS_SCIENCE_20110822.php They were getting 99%+ with synthetic diamonds. With isotopically pure diamonds I bet you could get effectively 100%. That would make positron-electron annihilation antimatter batteries feasible too, as you could contain the generated high energy photon. Safety isn't as important in Eclipse Phase. If your kid eats some radioactive strontium, it's easily taken care of.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
That 99% back reflection was
That 99% back reflection was impressive. I did not think any material could do it for x-rays.
Extropian
athanasius athanasius's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:They
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
They were getting 99%+ with synthetic diamonds. With isotopically pure diamonds I bet you could get effectively 100%. That would make positron-electron annihilation antimatter batteries feasible too, as you could contain the generated high energy photon.
It's not true, they use a very low energy x-ray (20kv, medical use are from 45kv to 150kv) and consider for calculation reflected photons only, ionizing radiation have a lot of possible interaction and are very penetrating even at low energy. The attenuation coefficient of a matherial is linked with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_absorption_coefficient]Mass attenuation coefficient[/url], for best attenuation of x or gamma very you need high Z number atoms, for radiotherapy the emitter is shielded by depleated uranium plate and even with this there is a lot of leaktrought... With antimatter even wrose, the electron-positron annikilation produce two 512Kev photon, this reaction is currently used in PET and the operators are exposed to substantial exposure. If we consider proton-antiproton event the maximum allowable energy is 938Mev, even if this max is almost never true we are in the Mev range, for shield such extreme energy you need a lot of mass. Jovian habitats need enormous rocky structure for radiation shielding for this reason! As i say before LENR are good because they seem produce little radiation but a loth of thermal, not because are the most effeicient possible nuclear energy source.
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
athanasius wrote
athanasius wrote:
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
They were getting 99%+ with synthetic diamonds. With isotopically pure diamonds I bet you could get effectively 100%. That would make positron-electron annihilation antimatter batteries feasible too, as you could contain the generated high energy photon.
It's not true, they use a very low energy x-ray (20kv, medical use are from 45kv to 150kv) and consider for calculation reflected photons only, ionizing radiation have a lot of possible interaction and are very penetrating even at low energy.....
Check out the figure in the link again - or the paper here if you care to spend $32. http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v5/n9/full/nphoton.2011.197.html Their dynamical calculations show that this reflectivity should hold up to 17.5[em]m[/em]eV, not just the keV range. And I wouldn't count out their theoretical calculations because it is what led these guys to this result in the first place. This wasn't an accidental discovery. And I'm confused about your point of "and consider for calculation reflected photons only". If one sees 99.5% reflection, by omission I've considered the other 0.5% - it didn't reflect. EDIT: Added the image in question [img]http://www.aps.anl.gov.nyud.net/Science/Highlights/Images/APS_SCIENCE_20...
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Here's another interesting
Here's another interesting link about the thermal shock resistance capabilities of diamonds. In this case, synthetic boron doped ones. They could make an ideal building material for fusion power plants. "Diamond walls for future fusion power plants" http://www.fom.nl/live/english/news/archives/pressreleases2012/artikel.p... "Thermal shock resistance of thick boron-doped diamond under extreme heat loads" http://iopscience.iop.org/0029-5515/51/5/052001/ Basically, they shot an electron gun that gave 2.5 Gigawatts per square meter in a 5 millisecond pulse. "In all cases, we found that diamond resists extreme heat loads better than tungsten", says De Temmerman. "In the best case, we could see no damage or surface erosion after even a hundred cycles of exposure to heat fluxes that are three times higher than the melting threshold of tungsten. Graphite or CFC, on the other hand, showed significant surface erosion under such conditions."
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
One more thing about diamonds
One more thing about diamonds - isotopically enriched diamond to 99.999% of Carbon-12 is calculated to have a thermal conductivity of 200,000 (W·m−1·K−1) The only other thing in its range is ultracold superfluid Helium II below 2.2 Kelvin. The diamond would work at high temperatures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
athanasius athanasius's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
And I'm confused about your point of "and consider for calculation reflected photons only". If one sees 99.5% reflection, by omission I've considered the other 0.5% - it didn't reflect.
The hy energy photons act more as single photons than as waves, this give them a few kind of interaction with matter: -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_scattering]Compton[/url]: the photon have enought energy it expell an electron from an atom and create a free electron and the photon proceed with less energy (longer wavelight) deflected by a small angle -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raman_scattering]Raman scatter[/url]: the photon is absorbed by the shell and photons radiate it at wavelight proportional with their bounding energy -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomson_scattering]Thomson scattering[/url]: the true reflection of the photon but only at [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomson_scattering_length]right wavelight[/url] -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect]photoelectric effect[/url]: as for solar pannels -[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production]pair production[/url]: a very high energy photon can create matter from energy The article speak of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_angle_X-ray_scattering_%28SAXS%29]sma... X-ray scattering[/url], inthe article you read:
wikypedia wrote:
In a SAXS instrument a monochromatic beam of X-rays is brought to a sample from which some of the X-rays scatter, while most simply go through the sample without interacting with it.
[url=http://whs.wsd.wednet.edu/faculty/busse/mathhomepage/busseclasses/radiat... good site[/url] for more abouth x-ray interactions. So i think they refer only to The reflected photons in Compton regimen and consider Raman a noise..
article wrote:
The reflectivity measurements were performed at the X-ray Science Division beamlines 30-ID and 7-ID at the APS utilizing 23.7-keV and 13.9-keV photons, respectively
They are not in meV range but below the 50keV, a nice spot for x-ray optics, at this energy you have a lot of backscatter by Compton... see Bodyscan!
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Their dynamical calculations show that this reflectivity should hold up to 17.5meV, not just the keV range.
As say before Bragg Reflectivity need that photons have a wavelight comparable to lactice structure, meV are in the 1.022 MeV need for create an electron-positron pair! In the immage you see below the graphic a formula, E-En [meV], i suspect the value are referred not to photon energy bur to other propriety.
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Here's the Abstract (emphasis
Here's the Abstract (emphasis added) from http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v5/n9/full/nphoton.2011.197.html "Ultrahigh-reflectance mirrors are essential optical elements of the most sophisticated optical instruments devised over the entire frequency spectrum. In the X-ray regime, super-polished mirrors with close to 100% reflectivity are routinely used at grazing angles of incidence. However, at large angles of incidence, and particularly at normal incidence, such high reflectivity has not yet been achieved. Here, we demonstrate by direct measurements that synthetic, nearly defect-free diamond crystals reflect more than 99% of hard X-ray photons backwards in Bragg diffraction, with a remarkably small variation in magnitude across the sample. This is a quantum leap in the largest reflectivity measured to date, which is at the limit of what is theoretically possible. This accomplishment is achieved under the most challenging conditions of normal incidence and with extremely hard X-ray photons." Put simply this is an x-ray mirror that goes up to the 17.5meV range that works at normal incidence angles. X-ray mirrors already existed before this experiment. Their problem is they only worked at shallow, "grazing" angles of incidence. This one works at normal incidence. That is, dead-on like a bathroom mirror. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflectance Normal incidence: [img]http://www.liv.ac.uk/~darling/dynamica/off-norm/incidence4.gif[/img] EDIT: Check out the "Figures at a Glance" section at http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journal/v5/n9/full/nphoton.2011.197.html Second from the left shows a graph for 1meV photons: "a, Filled circles indicate relative reflectivity measurements. Solid line indicates dynamical theory calculations for a 1-mm-thick crystal and incident X-rays with a 1 meV bandwidth."
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
athanasius athanasius's picture
"Near-100% Bragg reflectivity
"Near-100% Bragg reflectivity of X-rays", as say article... We are spaecking abouth a specific kind of interaction that have a very thin chance of happening, Bragg 's interaction need a photon at wavelight comparable to the apparent distance between the atoms in cristal. I'm sure there are no "radiation mirrors" with 100% efficiency because if it was possible no nuclear reactor worker will have problems to sit on top of core! I work with radiation and i can assure you that if i can have x-ray mirror or lens with high efficiency i can design perfect radiotherapy machine almost portable (Co60 was used but was too heavy the shielding and even with it had substantial rad hazards). For a more exaustive explain see [url=http://www.laradioactivite.com/en/site/pages/Gamma_Matter.htm]this article[/url] that explain contribution of differents effect to gamma ray interactions with matter. Even i have some trouble with this article because 100% reflectivity seems very clear but as i mentioned before this reflectivity follow the law of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_angle_X-ray_scattering_%28SAXS%29]Sma... X-ray scattering[/url]...
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Just so I'm clear, you've
Just so I'm clear, you've gone from explaining I don't understand the experiment or the implications of it, to disputing the experimental results themselves? Are you also saying it is a physical impossibility to reflect hard x-rays and gamma rays?
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
athanasius athanasius's picture
NewtonPulsifer wrote:Just so
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Just so I'm clear, you've gone from explaining I don't understand the experiment or the implications of it, to disputing the experimental results themselves?
I'm not personal abouth this, but i like interesting discussions. I suppose you have considered the 99% reflection as refered to the total number of photon shot at the mirror, they seem to refer only to the scattered photons caused by Bragg reflection (sorry even for me is difficult to understand what formulas they used): the Bragg photons that you can detect have the same energy of incident ones and are a part of the "Coherent Scattered Photons", you find also a lot more of photon at lower energy that are caused by Compton and as side effect of Photoelectric.
NewtonPulsifer wrote:
Are you also saying it is a physical impossibility to reflect hard x-rays and gamma rays?
No, i have experience of reflected radiation but at high energy this is a very thin fraction of total photons, the biggest % simply are attenuated by matter or pass it. I have see x-ray cristallography of diamond (it's used for investigate the morphology of the cristalline lactice) it had no more "reflectetion halo" than other samples.
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
Quote:No, i have experience
athanasius wrote:
No, i have experience of reflected radiation but at high energy this is a very thin fraction of total photons, the biggest % simply are attenuated by matter or pass it.
So this following sentence from the abstract is a strange claim from your point of view? Near 100% is hardly a "thin fraction". "In the X-ray regime, super-polished mirrors with close to 100% reflectivity are routinely used at grazing angles of incidence. However, at large angles of incidence, and particularly at normal incidence, such high reflectivity has not yet been achieved." So you're claiming at grazing incidence x-ray mirrors can't achieve near 100% reflectivity? They can and they do. Every hear of a Göbel X-Ray Mirror? They achieve 10-80% reflectivity of x-rays at near normal incidence (not grazing). Hardly a "thin fraction". http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=741 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_optics#Mirrors_for_X-ray_optics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Spectroscopic_Telescope_Array http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolter_telescope And quoted from the last link "X-rays mirrors can be built, but only if the angle from the plane of reflection is very low (typically 10 arc-minutes to 2 degrees)." That quote is outdated, but essentially true of what was known say around 1994. This experiment involved a carefully constructed synthetic diamond and careful control of firing at certain atomic planes of the diamond formed in a plate. It's not the same as taking a round cut flawed and occluded natural diamond and doing x-ray crystallography on it. Near 100% reflectivity x-ray mirrors already do exist. A narrow degree limit means you need a large set of them to bounce a signal 180 degrees.NuSTAR has 133 mirrors in each of its optic units for this reason - and they work up to 79 keV x-ray photons (no idea of the lower limit). If you still don't believe in x-ray mirrors, then you can see a picture of them with your own eyes as part of the units that went in the NuSTAR x-ray telescope: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/nustar/news/nustar20120530.html If the technology existed to make synthetic diamond mirrors that large, then yes, they could have made NuSTAR with just a few and not 133 per optical unit.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto
athanasius athanasius's picture
I'm sorry, seem we can't find
I'm sorry, seem we can't find common ground for this talk. My interest was introduce a spectrum od different kind of nuclear reaction tailored for evry spacific need: -portable: LENR, light but low efficiency -fixed energy generators: D-He3, efficient with low neutron flux for habitat safety -space trave fusion: CNO catalized fusion, very high temperature (high spacific impulse) but difficult to ignite -antimatter plasma core rocket: the more muscular use of antimatter rocket, injeticng reaction mass as afterburner can lower Isp and get high thrust, use expensive antimatter -long term stand alone: heavy elements fission, have extended duration (plutonium-244 have half-life of about 80 million years), can be designed for a broad range of mission profiles -weapons: fission bomb, antimatter initiated fusion bomb, amat bomb
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
D-He3 fusion reactors aren't
D-He3 fusion reactors aren't aneutronic, because the deuterium will fuse with other deuterium in side reactions, making neutrons. You reduce it 77% compared to all deuterium in a 50/50 D-He3 mix, reduce it even more in a lean mix with more Helium-3 and less deuterium. So still significant shielding or reactors located significant distance from people and equipment that aren't rad-hardened are still required for D-He3 fusion. EDIT: Assuming you have the technology to get it to work, He3-He3 fusion is the way to go for portable/lightweight reactors as it is 100% free of neutrons.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."- Isoroku Yamamoto