First, we have a misconception of sorts: a fork does not necessary works for free! Certainly, Beta forks are usually considered things more than beings (but for some rimward habitats), but I doubt an alpha fork will work without any sort of compensation. After all, if that were something you could do, we would soon find that transhumanity would do nothing: it is not the first tv show that portraits somebody able to clone himself, and does so because he is too lazy to do his daily chores... and so are his clones. So if we make a contract with an hypercorp as an indenturee and we can place a fork to do the job in our place, the fork will try to pass the job to a fork of himself, ad nauseam. Funny, but unpractical xD If you do provide blueprints for stuff that can be made on nanofabbers, there are several options (one of these I salvaged directly from Cthulhutech... one of the few things coherent in that setting, I must say): - First, you provide a online code people pay for, and they go to a public CM of a contracted franchise and the client gets the product. The money goes via the mesh to your account, kinda like buying an online premiun content today. - The second option is to provide the blueprints to a franchise of CMs that will offer the products as part of their selection, with payment on site. - The third option is to provide a physical data module that will, once inserted into a CM, produces the contained blueprint. For convenience purposes, the module would include enough credits to pay for the product, and will erase its contents after one use. - The fourth option consist in physical shops selling the product's raw materials packed with the data needed to assemble the final product and the credit fee for using the CM. As you can see, the model is quite flexible, and everything can be arranged as you prefer (like IRL nowadays). You can have a monthly payment program between the two bussiness (the blueprints and the CM), you can have your own hain of CM's, etc...

Azathoth wrote:

I'm a cutthroat hypercorp looking to maximize my profits. A good chunk of my employees are indentures, working in synth or infomorphs. Seems like the best way to increase profit would be to cheat. Either replace all those transhuman egos with AI, or just fork a ton of employees from one exemplary worker. What stops this from happening (besides things like "morality" and "society", bcs hypercorps seem to pay no heed to these things)? Is this something Oversight handles? Do they have a form of IRS that goes in and audits hypercorps with questionable records, doing brainscans on all the employees to make sure they're not all derived from the same ego? Seems like this would be an easy scheme to pull of towards the rim. Is this the equivalent of outsourcing jobs?

Sunward, p. 122 wrote:

All of the Oaxaca-Maartens enterprises rely heavily on AIs, AGIs, and infugee indentures for labor. Zevi himself pioneered the now-illegal technique of indenturing an ego to do administrative work in an office simulspace for three years, then running an arbitrary number of forks of the person (the record was 103 simultaneous instances for one worker) and merging them at the end of the contract. Most would agree the settlement money received by the victims did not go far enough.

So yeah, it happened at least once and probably more - and Planetary Consortium was not amused. Probably because it's too disruptive - if everyone was allowed to do this, you could just get one person, apply psychosurgery to make him love working for free and never ever have to hire anyone in this particular field. It's hard to tell how the economy would work in such case, but most probably it wouldn't. This is also probably the reason why aren't AI employed more often - after all, you don't need a genius to open the door when someone is coming. It's just that infugees generate growth, serving the system PC worked hard to establish. They buy their cases and synths (and then need someone to repair them), or GSP-addicted biomorphs, they require living space (which makes terraformation of Mars desirable). Even if they become criminals, at least some corps (Direct Action or Stellar Intelligence) can profit from that. It's one thing to swindle one's infomorphs on contracts, everyone is doing it. But the thing you described would put the entire system at risk. Hypercorps are not stupid.

Quote:

I'm a cutthroat hypercorp looking to maximize my profits. A good chunk of my employees are indentures, working in synth or infomorphs. Seems like the best way to increase profit would be to cheat. Either replace all those transhuman egos with AI, or just fork a ton of employees from one exemplary worker. What stops this from happening (besides things like "morality" and "society", bcs hypercorps seem to pay no heed to these things)? Is this something Oversight handles? Do they have a form of IRS that goes in and audits hypercorps with questionable records, doing brainscans on all the employees to make sure they're not all derived from the same ego? Seems like this would be an easy scheme to pull of towards the rim. Is this the equivalent of outsourcing jobs?

The hypercorps have done a good job of making people fearful of new technologies, but not to the point where the people wouldn't buy the stuff the hypercorps offer. Their enemy is the new economies who have done away with money and other related systems such as copyright laws. They've portrayed those economies as being dangerously lawless, allowing individuals to research bioware, AGIs, and other things without restriction. Because of the propaganda they sold the people, they don't want to have their customer base to suddenly fear them to by appearing to be the bad guys. Plus they don't want their competitors to get too much of an advantage, so they are willing to put up with organizations like Oversight... for now. By the way, some corps do have tricks for "cheating". For instance, the "Case" synthmorph are cheap to produce (the only morph I can think of at the moment that costs as low as [Moderate]) and many indentures may work decades for one. Other hypercorps offer high value indenture contracts for dangerous work (like work a year on the surface of Venus), but tend to include fine print that considers backups to be different people than those who died. If the ego was backed up before signing the contract, then the backup has no contract with the corp in question, and is expected to "start over". Even if they did have a contract, they didn't do the work the deceased did. Of course, dangerous work often has risks so "accidents may happen" that forces many individuals to "start over".

Quote:

Ok, so I've saved money on my work-force. Next is my product. Nearly everyone has access to a fabber, so my problems are not shipping or distribution. It's probably keeping people interested in my products by keeping on top of technology and trends. I have a big problem with open-source blue prints bcs people are less likely to pay when they can get a thing for free. I send the occasional angry fork-mail to the rim, but I know that's highly un-enforceable. What about at home? I know some of these blueprints trickle-back sunward. Do I just not release blueprints, and force people to buy a physical product (until someone programs a blueprint version). Do I make sure that my blueprints only work with fabbers produced by my corp (maybe through some encryption?). In the current age, I know a lot of sources for free music/movies/etc on the net are full of viruses, could a hypercorp infiltrate one of these peer-to-peer sites on the mesh and seed them with phony blueprints and malware?

Not every one owns a fabber. The fabbers the hypercorps offer to the public tend to have restrictions to prevent them from producing unauthorized blueprints, and their blue prints tend to have DRM to prevent them from being used by unauthorized fabbers. So most people can't produce what the hypercorps don't offer. Many fabbers includes a library of blueprints, so most people don't need to have blueprints. Most people probably haven't ever handled a blueprint file in their life. You can beat the DRM for blueprints, but it takes about month to crack. The rules don't cover it, but it probably takes the same time to beat fabber security. Would be thieves usually need to some work to steal blueprints. Many hypercorps only provide their blueprints to select clientele, include production limits, copy restrictions, and/or include self-destruct programs. The hypercorps tend to run programs on the mesh to delete unwanted information, such as non-hypercorp blueprint and anti-hypercorp memes. Also, habitats tend to filter what information and programs are allowed in. To fail to do so could put the security of the habitat at risk of another TITAN attack. It gives the hypercorps a good means and an excuse to prevent the spread of blueprints and other information.

Xagroth wrote:

Additionally, against all the open source movement, the hypercorps seed the mesh with false files. Don't ever believe that not even one of the trojans going around or viruses has been spawned by a greedy corp!

This is probably one of the best deterrents, because you never know what your cornucopia machine will actually spew after running one of these downloads. Pirated Genetic Service Pack may poison you instead, or play with your morph's neurochemistry, triggering constant depression. The open-source assault rifle can work fine when you're testing it, only to have its trigger mechanism remotely deactivated when used against Direct Action mercs. DRM may use exploits in the nanofabber's software and reprogram it to spew poison gas, if unauthorized modifications are detected. Not to mention that being caught with something like that can earn you some time in simulspace AND a large fine (which may be too steep for you - welcome to indenture!). Your c-rep is bound to take a hit and everybody will know why, so your chance to get a reasonable, creative job is not very good. Most people will prefer to save credits or take a loan, rather than risk something like that. The last but not least, I imagine that in hypercorp-dominated society software piracy is much more stigmatized than now. Your token middle-class Octavian or New Shanghaian probably wouldn't even consider that. The meme "piracy = theft" is alive and well in Planetary Consortium.

Gantolandon wrote:

This is also probably the reason why aren't AI employed more often - after all, you don't need a genius to open the door when someone is coming. It's just that infugees generate growth, serving the system PC worked hard to establish. They buy their cases and synths (and then need someone to repair them), or GSP-addicted biomorphs, they require living space (which makes terraformation of Mars desirable). Even if they become criminals, at least some corps (Direct Action or Stellar Intelligence) can profit from that. It's one thing to swindle one's infomorphs on contracts, everyone is doing it. But the thing you described would put the entire system at risk. Hypercorps are not stupid.

Having actual biomorphs open the door for someone isn't something that's done out of efficiency -- most businesses are just going to have sensors that trigger when someone approaches, like automated doors today, which doesn't even take an AI. If you've got a biomorph opening the door, it's a status symbol -- a mark of prosperity and/or an indication that you've entered a luxury establishment.

All in similarly stylized mentons with fractal digits and body mods with brand logos and the like -- but also with enough SAV modifications to give a sylph the run for its money. Because it's not just about being the best (objectively, they're probably not much better than the techie down the street), it's about selling the customer an _experience_...making _them_ part of the 'in-crowd' while they're in the store and buying the latest and greatest model merchandise. EDIT: And by 'similarly stylized', I don't mean identical -- but every menton is biosculpted to be recognizable as 'related' to the others, much like family resemblance today, to reinforce the sense of group belonging.

Xagroth wrote:

athanasius wrote:

Gantolandon wrote:

Xagroth wrote:

Additionally, against all the open source movement, the hypercorps seed the mesh with false files. Don't ever believe that not even one of the trojans going around or viruses has been spawned by a greedy corp!

This is probably one of the best deterrents, because you never know what your cornucopia machine will actually spew after running one of these downloads.

If blueprint are file or program you can chek for bug or troian with antivirus, i use blueprints in a more restrictive 3D printer files, as used today, and you can render the model and change it with an editor before printing.

Not everybody goes that far, nor they will learn how to do it. Reality: most of the people in the Planteary Consortium's habitats are "lazy" when it comes to improvisation, involvement, etc... They are very passive. And I doubt you will incur in much fines for printing one of those trap blueprints: actually letting you assemble a useless item that takes long to make and won't work is a better way to make people stop piracy and buy originals than bomb them with malware, backdoors and the like.

There is a big difference, though - in EP world not only entertainment is copyrighted. Genetic Service Packs, for example, are not something that an average citizen can live without. If I had a choice between feeling chronic constant pain in my joints, throw away half of my monthly salary to fix that or just download a pirated version and cook the cure up myself, the choice wouldn't be hard to make. And there are some open source blueprint which PC black ops like Stellar Intelligence would definitely want to sabotage. If someone tries to manufacture weapons or explosives, they are definitely up to no good and should be at least monitored, if not outright stopped. In most cases this is probably mild - like guns which broadcast their position when in city limits and can be remotely switched off. As for the blueprints - I imagine them more as a program. They are loaded by the cornucopia machine driver and interpreted. They convey not only the shape, but also reactions needed to convert raw materials into more complicated substances, where to apply them, and how to program the end product when it is made. In such case, spotting the malicious changes is pretty difficult - possible if you know a lot about nanofabricators and the item you're making, but in such case you could as well make your own. Of course, you can probably emulate your nanofabber in simulspace and see what it spews. Or just make use of Networking and @-rep - someone probably already checked it.

I suppose the blueprint are not coded with all detail abouth manufacturing, i suppose CM have a lot of processing power and onboard memory, is a waste of resource have it to load evry time a complete new set of programs evry manufacturing. Is more logical have it loaded with a OS, a set of instruction for control the internal assemblet/fractal digits and an editor for genetal purpose modifications, the blueprints then are a 3D image at atomic level of the device, the CM import the model with metadata (as license, list of materials needed, assemblers requided...) and if allowed open the editor for customizations. The 3D image is the bare minimum for assembly something and is huge even if the object is more or less omogeneus: for a plastic toy you need coordinates for create it's surface an the molecular composition of your plastic, this reduce the dimension without losing accuracy, more different molecular structures you need and more interface between materials you have bigger is the file. Hypercorp CM verify metadata for copy protection and verify material used for illegal items, i use this mechanics in my games: goo players can bypass protection with clever idea, copy protection is easy to bipass and you can figure a way fot use substance that not trigger ban or allarm for same purpose (a lot of funny play for have a gun printed).

Xagroth wrote:

There is a nasty, criminal, and very gorvernment-like option to make people buy those "bio maintenance packages". It's like our (spanish) Social Security service: you don't pay it, they directly take the money from your salary, and it is not voluntary (for three or so years I had my family's private health insurance, Karate Federation's one, and social security. I dropped out of the karate federation because it was worse than useless, and now we have to pay for the medicines we already paid with taxes for. So...).

Sorry of hear it i'm Italian so i consider you a "cousin"

Xagroth wrote:

That, of course, won't keep a decided and ingenous educated sapient from getting a gun, but it will keep the amount of guns in the "streets" low enough the police can control most of it, and leave some of the slums to policy themselves as scape valves of sorts.

It'm my idea too, it'a a bit like today: if you want you can build up a gun from scratch, using common material, the problem with CM is barrel (the rifling is obvious, used only for guns) and not the propellant (EP gun use a form of electrothermal propulsion sthey need only a working gas and energy). Weapons probably are less feared in hypercorp controlled territory, if you are shot a camera surely see who do it and the offender pay for healthcare or "resurrection" and you can putt in some mod and let' he pay.. ;) Very powerful weapons (the kind that can breach habitat bulky walls) are more difficult to produce as very energetic compounds and super-advanced composite nedded are simply identified. If you want make habitat scale damage you don't need weapons, heavy durty plasma cutters and similar worktools are more than enought used by skilled saboteurs! Other goods have built in evidence if obtained from cracked blueprints: in EP evrithing is mesh tagged and if you find a "false ID" or "no ID" it's a suspect item, variants of facial recognition AI programmed for identify items can do it by deatful and trigger allarms to autority for deeper search (a good use for poor ego).

BOMherren wrote:

I imagine there would be quite a few obstacles to these kinds of behaviours. First, the forks. They're still individual employees, and you're still contracting with each of them. You're now paying two hundred and fifty identical people instead of two hundred and fifty different people. That may or may not give you a competitive advantage, but it probably will get you in hot water with the PC. "Dem dirty Alphas took our jorbs!"

Nah. So far, almost every legal entity in the setting makes a legal distinction between a person and a fork. A fork is property of the person it's based on. It's the closest thing to true slavery besides indentured servitude… yet it isn't. It is after all a copy of you. To be honest, this is one of the most difficult ethics issues I've conceived. I honestly can't say whether it's kosher or not to own your ego, and all derivatives thereof.

BOMherren wrote:

Now, it's been ten years since then. The truly desperate are already gone, one way or the other, and there's a legal authority to enforce the contracts. More importantly, the track records are in. People know whose workers return on time and in shiny new Splicers, and whose workers don't. People know what to watch out for, know to make arrangements ahead of time in case things don't work out, and know how to reach either the PC or the nearest Scum barge if they need help. Contracts are standardized, and every Muse speaks legalese.

I don't think all the desperate are safe. For one thing, there are still plenty in cold storage. Millions. It's highly unlikely they've [i]all[/i] been saved, and I'm sure plenty more are desperate to be free of that situation. Second, the clanking masses make the new poverty class of the inner system; and there will always be plenty of desperate people within their ranks. So you've effectively got two sources of indenture workers; the uninstantiated and the lower class. Until there are none of neither, there will always be plenty of contracts to be signed.

BOMherren wrote:

Lastly, I have to confess I don't have the faintest clue how IP protection could work in Eclipse Phase. Cryptography is, as a matter of logical necessity and regardless of the particular software or hardware technology employed, inapplicable to a commercial product. I think the only way IP could be preserved is if the PC severely restricts ownership and access to nanofabrication. Make public fabbers connect to an authentification server, and keep all of them under constant surveillance to minimize the risk of tampering. Make all commerical and private fabbers subject to heavy regulation and licensing requirements, including periodical and surprise inspections to insure against end-user tampering. And that's still an iffy proposition.

This is how I see it happening. I think that the majority of inner system fabbers that aren't in the hands of the hyperelite are likely designed to service a community, rather than an individual. They likely sit in a public place, and would be damn near impossible to steal. Think vending machine. The other option is that they are wired into housing clusters. A nanofabricator services everyone that lives in an apartment structure, and the owner of the apartment is a hypercorp with contracts to those blueprints. This is also the best way to make the system self-replenishing, as you can connect the apartment's waste disposal to the apartment's nanofabricator, recycling waste into food and clothing.

BOMherren wrote:

For media, it's just outright impossible, no matter what draconian measures you implement. All media is stored in your brain as sensory data after you've partaken in it, and the standard mesh inserts that every morph has allow you to scan and copy that data. No one will pay to see a movie if they have to have it wiped from their mind afterwards, or if they have to sign an NDA which allows the kind of invasive surveillance necessary to ensure enforcement.

Agreed. I actually imagine that media industries in the future will take on a model akin to Youtube, where the profit is purely in advertising and getting subscribers, and media producers care very little about ripping and distribution (let's be honest, Youtube is anything but a secure place to put your videos). The RIAA and MPAA will either be long gone by 10 AF, or they will have finally smartened up and gotten with the program.

BOMherren wrote:

That... Wow. First of all, I'll admit freely that statement was just my own prejudice talking. I haven't actually read what the PC's stance on fork rights is, and made an assumption based on 1) the fact that the PC wants to maintain some semblance of human employment and 2) my own opinion on the matter. Frankly, I find it somewhat disturbing. I can only assume that the PC regards the matter of forked workers extremely seriously, and will enforce it with some degree of consistency. Otherwise, I don't think there would be any further demand for indentures by this point. Everyone would be using millions of copies of the same fifty or so people.

You have to remember that there are some psychological issues inherent with the concept of forking. While your ego exists in two place at once, in a sense, you do not sense one another as the same entity. You are, in effect, different people from the moment forking occurs, with diverging experiences. Furthermore, they carry with them all of your memories, thoughts and ideas up until the point of divergence… your alpha forks will know all of your passwords, how sex with your spouse feels, your every most private personal memory and more. But that's not all. Your alpha forks will know everything necessary to fill your identity. They have your same brainscans, and know everything needed to enter your bank accounts. They are effectively you. Some people won't be comfortable with that, especially since you have no way of knowing what your fork does. They are an independent mind, and capable of independent action, with all of your talents and flaws. If you are a compulsive gambler, then so are they… and they have just as much access to your accounts as you do. Plus it opens a whole assortment of moral quandries. Is your fork married to your spouse as well? Do they have just as much legal right to sleep with them as you? Are you okay with that? If not, can they sleep with whomever? Can you merge with your fork and acquire all the memories of having lived vicariously through it? Does that count as cheating? Would your spouse be okay with you duplicating yourself so you can get yourself some strange? And I'm just touching the moral issues regarding marriage and fidelity. Shit gets even crazier when you bring other topics into the fray. I see forks being something that is still an ethical battleground of 10 AF. Many people (indentures especially) probably aren't comfortable with the concept of forking yet. For that reason, simply getting a fork workforce probably isn't too feasible, at least not yet. Not until society has caught up with the present technology.

BOMherren wrote:

Yes, but they don't have to go in blind now. They have more choices, more information available to help them make a better decision, established standard contracts and statistics on which do and which do not generally work out favourably, a presumably neutral third party to settle disputes and provide evac in case of conflict... Even if you're going to rush in there and sign the first piece of paper that's waved in front of you, odds are you're going to get a less terrible deal than you would have ten years ago, because the worst choices have been weeded out. If you're willing to prepare at least a little bit and look at C-rep scores and listen to what people are saying, your odds really start to look up.

Tough to say. As artificial intelligence becomes more prominent and takes a broader part of the workforce itself, indenture contracts might actually go down in value. After all, why buy up an indenture at all when an AI doesn't need a contract or payment? As the price on AI goes down, the cost of indentures must also drop to compete. And as AI efficiency increases, indenture quotas must also increase. Indentures are effectively fighting an unwinnable battle against the oncoming onslaught of total automation. The only thing that might even be maintaining their niche at all might be hypercorps that have discriminatory views against artificial intelligences or find indenture contracts more affordable than bulk AI contracting.

BOMherren wrote:

I was thinking something more like a copy shop. Except it's more heavily regulated than a gun store, and under tighter surveillance than a bank. And it has at least one surprise inspection per week.

I don't think that's all necessary. Public surveillance is so prominent that most wouldn't be stupid enough to try and crack open a public fabber. You'd have your face recorded on a dozen cameras, your grunts uploaded to a databank, and the mesh would go haywire informing the authorities of your current location and activities. And with the blueprints being stored on a black-boxed harddrive that can only be accessed by the fabber connected to it, tampering would be required to get access. Why have extreme security when you could just utilize the panopticon?

BOMherren wrote:

Maybe. It would have to be some sort of "alternative" business model.

Tough to say. All I know is at the rate their going, they're going to be useless in a couple decades.

BOMherren wrote:

Well... Even if the contracts do become worth less and involve more time or worse Morphs, they will still be standardized. Tried and true, with plenty of documentation on the success rate of each company and each type of standardized contract, and established legal precedents and procedures. It will still be easier to spot scams, and to arrange some kind of contingency plan.

Only to an extent. Demand is not going to be completely even regarding hypercorps. There are likely more indentures than there are jobs, so the advantage is still in favor of the hypercorps. Unemployment among the clanking masses is probably staggering, so many will take what they can get. That said, there probably aren't many scams in the market. At least not in the inner system. Though I imagine that as you get farther out, the risk of falling into the hands of a scammer or, worse still, Nine Lives will grow greater.

BOMherren wrote:

Well, it's probably easier to market your product in a storefront, and your costumers probably might that human touch. But of course, thinking about it, that's probably not a concern with the clanking masses. So yeah. Vending machines.

I disagree. Mesh inserts or computer access are so prevalent that they are nearing universal, so I have no doubt that most people are used to a digital storefront. Plus, there's a greater degree of convenience with digital storefronts, especially in a world of nanotech and artificial intelligence. Imagine it; on your way to work at the hypercorp, you are rushing to the HabTram station when you realize you hadn't ordered your coffee yet. You send out an order to Java Inc., who sends your order to the vending machine nearest your station. As soon as you are in its vicinity, you receive a buzz from the vending machine, and it immediately begins pouring your coffee (which it mixed in preparation for your arrival) as you walk towards it. Credits have already been deducted from your account, so it's nothing but convenience. This carries the potential for more conveniences later on. You realize that you haven't bought groceries and your pantry is empty. You put out an order to GrocerTec a half-hour before you get off of work, which says that your order will be at your house when you get there (it knows when you'll arrive based on recordings of your usual schedule). When you arrive, a small servant drone is holding several plastic bags at your doorstep, which follows you in as soon as you open your door. Once it organizes the food in your fridge according to your presets, it leaves with little announcement. It doesn't even leave the bags, taking them with so that they can be recycled… the cost of the bags are not factored into your receipt, since you opted for the bot to take them back with. Don't tell me that you wouldn't prefer that over a storefront.

It that must not be named wrote:

One thing here is that firewall might decide to toss a monkey wrench into this if a hypercorp tried it. I say might because FW is about protecting transhumanity from X threats, and some people in FW might possibly decide that treating people, even in infomorph state, like property could lead to a situation that was very, very bad for most of transhumanity and that it needed the kabosh put to it.

But is that really an existential threat? Firewall can't afford to get it's nose in every little problem that occurs in the system. They are the great barrier between humanity and non-existence, not Team America: System Police. And much as human rights violations are unethical and horrible, they have also existed since forever, and never risked the survival of the species. Hell, I live in the US, a country that only recognized that people can't be property about 150 years ago. Slavery is a terrible thing, but it isn't existentially threatening. Firewall has to focus on the latter, and not worry about the former. Though I'm sure that the anarchists within Firewall spend much of their offtime making trouble for the institution of indentured servitude. They just aren't allowed to use Firewall resources in doing it.

The idea that a hypercorp could turn large numbers of people into willess slaves via things like editing egos and manipulation might make the corporation itself an x threat in some people's views. Also, too much power in any one group's hands, especially purely selfish hands, might get on firewalls "not a good thing" list.

An example of firewall acting against a hypercorp might be if one develops some new type of memetic advertising that causes addiction to a very large percentage of transhumans exposed to it and has the effects of turning a lot of people into addicts and making the hypercorp so successful that other hypercorps start copying it. Firewall eventually decides that making the majority of the system's inhabitants junkies onl concerned about their next fix is bad for transhumanitie's survival and has to stop it. This meme was in a SF novel "Merchant's war" in which a company developed an addictive ad for a product called "mokie coke" that addict people exposed to the ad without them knowing it.