Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Swarmanoids and cortical stacks

28 posts / 0 new
Last post
Wild_Cat Wild_Cat's picture
Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Ah, the cortical stack, most important part of any morph worth its salt. Easily retrieved and pocketed to bring your friends back to life after a botched mission... ...Except when said friend is a massively-distributed swarm of tiny micro-machines, all redundant, polyvalent and pretty much identical to each other. Simply put, how does one retrieve the cortical stack from a swarmanoid morph? (short of a vacuum cleaner and a lot of patience, that is -- [i]this[/i] alternate solution, I'd already figured out ;) )
Come baguette some!
7thSeaLord 7thSeaLord's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Good point. The only explanation I can think of is that there is a "core unit", within the swarm, that does little else but carry the cortical stack. It blends in with the rest of the swarm, so it is almost impossible to single out. It also tends to hang back within the main part of the swarm, so it is unlikely to be among the first casualties when things go pear-shaped. Other than that, I got nothin'.
"Do it? ... Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." Ozymandias, The Watchmen
morolen morolen's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Pretty much what 7th said, I have also ruled that there are more then one stack and they are all synced. They will also delete themselves if taken too far from the swarm unless a mesh password is broadcast.
7thSeaLord 7thSeaLord's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
I'm a little bit leery about certain implications here. Specifically, of PCs using swarmanoid morphs routinely having multiple stacks.
"Do it? ... Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." Ozymandias, The Watchmen
morolen morolen's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
I dont see what the problem is, all the stacks in a swarm are synched together so you wont have different timestamps on your backup and since they cannot be removed from the swarm without a password(in our case atleast) you wont have the PC going multiple places should he die.
7thSeaLord 7thSeaLord's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Maybe. I am not opposing the idea as such. But, it does seem to me that the basic ... uncrackability of such a set-up is being taken for granted. What with the extensive hacking rules and AIs and rapidly advancing / evolving technologies and so forth, there would be very few things that with sufficient skill and motivation, would be unhackable. One also has to ask, if the swarmanoids' multiple stacks are all coded to prevent unauthorized access (so to speak), then why aren't the single stacks on other morphs enjoying similar protection? For that matter, if a swarmanoid has multiple interconnected stacks, I don't see any reason why a variant of this could not be done with other morphs. One could have a stack in the usual place, and several "back-up" stacks. The latter would not necessarily have to be implants, either - could be set in jewellery or clothing or other personal items. OK, this last would be very handy fpr most PCs, and may well be where the technology goes next anyhow but, in pure game terms, could also be very unbalancing if introduced right now - rules rewrites, rethinking the entire basic set-up, etc..
"Do it? ... Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." Ozymandias, The Watchmen
kenkthulhu kenkthulhu's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
The swarm has the equivalent of early 21st century torrent bits. Each part of the swarm has multi-redundant pieces of the stack, and all combine to form the stack-web. The web is actually a swarm subnet, with all parts encrypted. Each layer in the swarm subnet, contains the equivalent of a complete stack (torrent), with multiple levels of redundant torrents. Should the swarm suffer damage, sufficient to compromise a layer's integrity, then each swarm element wirelessly communicates and combines data to reform the missing bits and restore the stack/level to its former integrity. Each swarm element copies redundant stack-bits down to lower memory levels and across the swarm - tens or hundreds or times per second. Each swarm element passing within communicable proximity to another that does not contain an element that is represented in said range by other swarm elements, is passed between the swarm elements to complete the picture. eg a swarm of 10,000 components, contains a hierarchy of stack levels with each level using 1000 stack-bits to comprise the complete cortical stack. Conceivably 10 stacks could be represented in the stack level, but if just one swarm-bit was to perish then a whole stack-copy would be lost! Instead, the extra space contains redundant copies of stack-bits - or 9 redundant copies, and multiple copies are themselves "stacked" down to lower memory awaiting promotion to higher stack memory should the need arise. The idea could be best represented by a horizontal partitioning and redundant copying process, that also incorporates vertical partitioning, with bit-flips that allow same-space, different data layer representation. I hope this helps.
kenkthulhu Duty Now for the Future
Wild_Cat Wild_Cat's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
This theory has two interesting consequences: 1. Anyone recovering roughly 10-15% of the morph can extract a (possibly partial) copy of the ego. 2. By disrupting the right connections at the right time, you can induce a netsplit in a swarmanoid. Keep it up long enough for damage recovery algorithms to kick in and both parts of the swarm will redistribute the workload across themselves. You'd end up with two swarms half the size of the original, each running an alpha fork. Yay for mechanical mitosis!
Come baguette some!
7thSeaLord 7thSeaLord's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Very interesting idea. I'd be inclined to make the netsplit thing difficult, or (at least) impose a bunch of extra Stress points on the Character doing this. He's basically trying to fork all by himself (no funny remarks, please :D ), without the technology that other morphs need - and with none of the back-up support either. In pure safety terms, seems a little like trying to perform unassisted brain surgery on yourself.
"Do it? ... Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago." Ozymandias, The Watchmen
kenkthulhu kenkthulhu's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Ah well - this is no different to remote scanning any other morph with a stored cortical stack (everyone). Right now an enterprising thief can remotely scan my travel card and access my account and balance. Why not any other morph with a stack. What I proposed was to share the stack in order to address the "where is the stack stored" question. We assume that a stack is encrypted and firewalled to prevent access - if access is compromised then the stack can be copied or read. Obtaining elements of the stack (full or partial) does not guarantee it can be read - moreover, there is less chance because there is more chance of partiality. If one lops of another's head, then the full stack is available to be hacked and the stack withdrawn intact. If one takes part of a swarm, then the chance of a full stack recovery reduces with partiality - perhaps linearly. Returning to the "many redundant stacks within a swarm" proposal, each stack level (or redundant layer) is encrypted (and perhaps differently encrypted) so that an inspected element is incomplete, and a significant swarm-portion would only render an incomplete stack at each level - a different incomplete stack. This "remote viewing" is no less different than scanning a non-swarm morph for its stack, or more easily, scanning a stream during stack recall, or perhaps maliciously, interfering with a recall and slicing a recalled stack with malicious code. Perhaps every stack recall out there is not the "true version" - every recall process is infected with extraneous code. Oooh how's that for conspiracy? What you thought happened on the last mission is not what actually happened - your "soul" was hacked on the way back. But you will never know. Who protects the backups? Are they true versions? True, if we vacuum up a swarm we can take the stack. But we still have to crack it/them, just like any other.
kenkthulhu Duty Now for the Future
hewhocutsdown hewhocutsdown's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
The other question that comes up with the torrent analogy is this: While the 'data' portion of the mind may exist across the swarm, the controller/cpu/cyberbrain portion doesn't, necessarily. I see two options: 1) The puppet sock/remote control of the swarm or, more interestingly 2) High availability 'production' servers with distributed storage. Ie., in a 500-bot swarm, there might be a ratio of 5.0 full copies of the ego, and there might be 5 fully functional cyberbrains/cortical stacks. The loss/destruction of the primary CB/CS switches control automatically to the next available. The loss of all 5 does not mean that the ego is not recoverable, but that it's 'unconscious'; a replacement cyberbrain would be required. The mechanical mitosis would occur only in the case of the separated swarms each having a cyberbrain; it would be a roll based on current # of controller microbots as a percentage of total microbots. Thoughts?
kenkthulhu kenkthulhu's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
hewhocutsdown: I like it. I am not a fan of "don't know - make a roll" but if you were to introduce a mechanic it seems like a penalty to swarminoid morph players, and not others. Rather than a general % based on swarm loss, I would entertain a specific mod to a separate action: eg. stack recall :- penalty = ratio of current mbs to total mbs (as percentage)... you've got 300, you started with 500 so a neg 40% to the recall attempt ... all without going into specifics of how many microbots contain how much of a stack, how many bots are there in a swarm, how many layers can be stored, how many, how many... I would like to keep it simple. I like your percentage idea regarding stack related actions.
kenkthulhu Duty Now for the Future
The Sandman The Sandman's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
hewhocutsdown wrote:
The other question that comes up with the torrent analogy is this: While the 'data' portion of the mind may exist across the swarm, the controller/cpu/cyberbrain portion doesn't, necessarily. I see two options: 1) The puppet sock/remote control of the swarm or, more interestingly 2) High availability 'production' servers with distributed storage. Ie., in a 500-bot swarm, there might be a ratio of 5.0 full copies of the ego, and there might be 5 fully functional cyberbrains/cortical stacks. The loss/destruction of the primary CB/CS switches control automatically to the next available. The loss of all 5 does not mean that the ego is not recoverable, but that it's 'unconscious'; a replacement cyberbrain would be required. The mechanical mitosis would occur only in the case of the separated swarms each having a cyberbrain; it would be a roll based on current # of controller microbots as a percentage of total microbots. Thoughts?
Going with #2: Just assume that when you actually take a Wound as a swarmanoid what the Wound represents is that you lost one of those servers. Fill up your Wound track and you go "unconscious" due to loss of all of the servers; while there's still enough bots left that you have at least one full copy of your ego, you'll need to wait until one of the remaining general-purpose bots rebuilds itself into a full-time serverbot (what natural healing would represent with a swarmanoid) to go active again. If you've hit your death value, that means that not only are all of your serverbots gone but that so many of your bots have been destroyed that you no longer have a complete ego. Assume that whatever can be recovered is the equivalent of a gamma fork, except even less coherent.
Ramidel Ramidel's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
So only Swarmanoids lose their stacks when they die?
hewhocutsdown hewhocutsdown's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
The theory we've postulated is that Swarmanoids have multiple cortical stacks, and that 'death' involves the destruction of all of them (referred to as 'servers' as well, above). Rebuilding a microbot with a new cortical stack is expensive, but possible, and as long as enough bots are around to have a full 1.0 of the ego backed up, you're off to the races again.
TheRawrnstuff TheRawrnstuff's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
I've always just pictured that the stack was kind of like the queen of the swarm...
oroberts oroberts's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Clearly you don't want anyone being able to retrive a full stack from a single element, and clearly you don't want to have to retrieve ALL elements to reconstruct the stack. In cryptography there are some very neat schemes to allow an M-of-N retrieval to work. i.e. the swarmanoid specifies a minimum number of elements that need to be retrieved in order to contruct a full stack. This would in most cases probably be the vast majority, say, 18000 of 20000 for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir%27s_Secret_Sharing Shamir is the S in RSA (encryption) if you are interested.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
I figure morphs can have more than one cortical stack, but how it's linked would vary; it's probably not a standard implant. As for Swarmanoids, I figure there's no single model type out there, and it could be up to players or the GM as to which it is. A "queen" drone could be there that's more armoured than the rest and carries the stack itself, or there could be mini-stacks in every drone, each recording a certain part (and just assuming that any the PCs can recover would be sufficient, unless story demands otherwise), or there could be multiple full stacks that all contain back-ups. No reason why you can't have whichever as the situation demands it.
hewhocutsdown hewhocutsdown's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Just a teaser... Issue 1 (Q1 2011) of The Eye (Eclipse Phase Fanzine) will explore several different methods of playing stacks in swarmanoids. Although there's no reference of Shamir's Secret Sharing...
Monican Monican's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
I've ruled in my campaign that the swarmanoid PC has holographic ego storage evenly distributed across the swarm, with 20% of the swarm being the minimum needed for a full-resolution copy of the ego. That is to say, the entire ego is stored on each bot, but with a resolution proportional to the % of bots recovered, under a certain %. So if at least 20% of the swarmanoid fragments can be recovered (a few large handfuls) he'll be able to be restored fully with the production of more microbots. If a smaller proportion of the bots are recovered, his personality will be degraded upon reconstruction and will take some length of time to restore itself to maximum values. That last part is pretty generous, since I had considered ruling that if fewer than 20% of the bots are recovered he may only be reconstructed as a beta or gamma fork, depending on the amount, but that seems too punishing. I prefer the idea that the ego can slowly resolve itself back to 100% from a remainder of at least ~5-10% of the bots. Everything should be evenly distrubuted although I suppose player preference could put emphasis on "every bot is equal to every other" vs. "I have specialized bots in the swarm."
hewhocutsdown hewhocutsdown's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Article on swarmanoid morphs/cortical stacks is up over at The Eye http://www.firewall-darkcast.com/theeye/rule-hacking-swarmanoid-morphs
Jérémie Jérémie's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Well if the dev could take the 30 seconds necessary to answer what could have been in the book in the first place, it would be nice too :)
w3azel w3azel's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
I know this one can be a little bit of a desperate one, but... how about a physical restriction? We can see the hive as a "house" for the swarmanoid, certainly the place to renew itself and heal. The cortical stack would be inside the hive and syncing within the scope of the transmitters scattered along the swarm. This means that if the swarmanoid goes to far from the hive, it won´t be syncing his ego until it returns within range. I know this one reminds of the old vampyre films with all that thing about the soil inthe coffin, but it certainly simplifies the question a lot, at least in terms of game mechanics. Any thoughts?
___ A man without a god is like a fish without a bicycle.
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
A swarmanoid does not consist of nanites. There isn't a 'hive'. The approximate size of individual units in the illustration looks to be on the order of a centimeter or two. In order to NOT give swarmanoids any benefits or deficits which aren't listed in the books, I tend to rule that a 'dead' swarmanoid actually is 'too few units to process coherent thought', so the remainder shut down. The 'stack' is 'grab a handful of what's left of Bob and let's get out of here.' So there's no 'It will take you a quarter hour to sift through all of the mechanical bugs on the floor to find the queen', etc. Similarly, if swarm elements get cut off from the main (no ability to signal) for more than a few seconds, they instant-wipe themselves, so there's no 'The bad guys just captured 10% of Bob and can now reconstitute him.' A blast door sealing off 10% of a swarmanoid is equivalent to a normal morph losing a limb to same blast door, etc...It doesn't include a stack. The way I handle swarmanoids and flexbots, neither of which have particularly clear or coherent rules, is that they have the ability to string themselves out and extend their field of view across multiple rooms, down corridors, etc. Effectively your morph is a bunch of tiny little drones that must remain in connectivity with each other (or larger drones for flexbots). They can pass through gaps that a full-size transhuman can't. The biggest distinction I make between the two is that the swarmanoid can't manipulate items, and flexbot units can. So you sort of have a 'distributed attention' that lets you be in multiple places at once, within limits, but other than that I don't give them any benefits/deficits that aren't RAW. I'm flexible within reason for things that 'make sense', but as far as cortical stacks, et al., the less fiddliness, the better, IMNSHO.
w3azel w3azel's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
No hive, good point that I missed. So, how would you describe the process of resleeve into a swarmanoid? Do you attach an ego bridge to something? Are there similar bug-swamanoid crawling out there, may be cleaning the sewers or doing all kinds of things (mainteinance etc)? Make sense. I now visualize them similar to a certain character in "Pluto", by Naoki Urasawa.
___ A man without a god is like a fish without a bicycle.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Having units auto-wipe themselves if they get lost is a glaring security hole. Have an effect that fools them (like an EMP destroying their comms) and the morph wipes the ego... Having units not wipe themselves is also a security hole, since now enemies can capture part of you and get a copy of your ego to interrogate at their leisure. I think the solution is cryptographic secret sharing - the ego is encrypted, and you need a certain number of correctly signed swarm unit processors to run it. I would also suggest that some swarm units probably do have small backup cortical "slivers" that allow reconstruction. But maybe this is the expensive model: you can get a stack-less cheaper, and an insecure one really cheap...
Extropian
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
Having units auto-wipe themselves if they get lost is a glaring security hole. Have an effect that fools them (like an EMP destroying their comms) and the morph wipes the ego... Having units not wipe themselves is also a security hole, since now enemies can capture part of you and get a copy of your ego to interrogate at their leisure. I think the solution is cryptographic secret sharing - the ego is encrypted, and you need a certain number of correctly signed swarm unit processors to run it. I would also suggest that some swarm units probably do have small backup cortical "slivers" that allow reconstruction. But maybe this is the expensive model: you can get a stack-less cheaper, and an insecure one really cheap...
Extropian
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: Swarmanoids and cortical stacks
You're twice as right as usual.