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Guardian Nanoswarms

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clockworkjoe clockworkjoe's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
TekHed wrote:
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I also don't think programming disassembler swarms for combat would be as easy as you think it is. For one thing, a skilled hacker or programmer could fake his electronic 'voice' as you put it so he sends out the same signal as the habitat and suddenly the swarm won't attack him.
Granted this could be done as you say...if the targets realize this. Not sure they could do it in the moment while they are being attacked though.
Arguably this is probably why nanoswarms are not the primary weapons in the Eclipse Phase universe - they're a known threat so every military and armed faction has figured out every possible way a disassembler swarm can target someone and how to fool it. There can only be so many ways a nanoswarm can target - they do not have access to enhanced vision or specs or anything like that, remember. Any decent tactician would have had training in nanoswarm offense and defense. Your horde of 10 swarms could eat the first guy but the rest of the squad on tac-net would figure how the swarm is targeting and counter it within a few rounds of analysis. Hell, a single EMP grenade cuts off communication so you couldn't reprogram the swarms to correct their targeting after the first guy is dead. Also, a single soldier in heavy armor can have 20 or more energy and kinetic armor. 40 points for the swarms to eat through plus another 40 for the morph (most combat ready morphs can get to 40 or so with implants and/or MRDR) OR 60 if you want to guarantee the kill - Death rating is Durability * 1.5 PLUS another 40 points to eat the cortical stack (20 DUR plus 20 armor) so that's up to 140 points of damage for the swarms to eat through to totally kill one armored soldier - 5 rounds (4 if they ignore the stack). The soldier will have at least Speed 2 (MRDR or implants) and he'll have 2 rounds to do something before he's unable to do something so that's 4 actions. If he's prepared he could easily survive and even if he's not, his comrades can do something to stop them. So in my opinion, disassembler swarms are great weapons in certain circumstances - as defensive guard dogs, assassination weapons when combined with good intel, or as terror weapons against untrained personnel. Against trained opponents with decent equipment, they will fail in most cases.
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Decivre wrote:
Okay, and that's fine. But there's a significant difference between saying "I like my science fiction different from you, so I disagree" and accusing people of ass-pulling. Most of us, when we make posts, either do a decent amount of research with regards to what we are saying, have at least a small amount of knowledge with regards to the field in question, or are asking for someone with either to elaborate and assist with our understanding of things. We aren't simply making shit up. Such is the nature of trying to establish a hard science fiction setting… our rulebook isn't just the core book and supplements, it's scientific journals, articles, online tools and Wolfram Alpha to boot. That's how we discuss this setting around here. But I admit that it isn't for everybody. Lord knows that I would be pretty pissed if someone tried to take the hard science stick to my Shadowrun games. But that's how this fanbase is. Though if you want to discuss softer sci-fi aspects, the discussions regarding TITAN tech tend to get pretty good and exotic.
Well, I will apologize for my vehemence. In all honesty, I've been fairly stressed lately and have been overreacting here. Sorry about that.
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Hell, a single EMP grenade cuts off communication so you couldn't reprogram the swarms to correct their targeting after the first guy is dead.
...unless they use lasers to communicate. The book says they can do that and says EMPs have little effect save for radio communications, IIRC. Also, if it is targeting whatever it hits the only defense will be to not get hit. Even using EMPs will only do a bit of damage to a swarm with 50 DUR...and they are immune to wounds so they keep eating you until you do 5o damage to them...and with 10 swarms that would look like...500 damage...
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Also, a single soldier in heavy armor can have 20 or more energy and kinetic armor. 40 points for the swarms to eat through plus another 40 for the morph
Eh...the way I read it/interpreted it is that the E and K armors are eaten through simultaneously, though I can see how you might read it differently.
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So in my opinion, disassembler swarms are great weapons in certain circumstances - as defensive guard dogs, assassination weapons when combined with good intel, or as terror weapons against untrained personnel. Against trained opponents with decent equipment, they will fail in most cases.
Fair enough, though I still think you're making a lot of assumptions. I agree they aren't the be all weapon for every situation, but they are versatile and stylish. I never wanted to make the ultimate weapon...for that see my Reaper description. ...apologies again for being so out of sorts. I still feel like I have a different more fantastic understanding of the setting than the hard-science heads here. If we can politely agree to disagree, if not on the facts then in the areas where the game leaves it up for each group to nail down, we'll be fine. I probably won't be weighing in/asking many more science based questions though. I much prefer the fiction side of science fiction.
Tnargraef Tnargraef's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
As a small note TekHed, the Errata simply states that is disrupts the swarm on any action. EMP causes a –10 modifier to all tests due to their damaging effects on the swarm’s communication abilities until repaired. By this wording per say, until you replenish the swarm or get hold of the swarm itself and repair them. I interpret this as damage to the hardware itself since EMP shielding the swarm is quite difficult, and thus also why EMP is effective against such swarms. So while the communication itself is still there, the person sending the signals would have a -10 applied to their test due to the fact the swarm's hardware has been damage by the EMP so they have a harder time receiving. Another crazy thing is that it doesn't really say that the EMP skill test damage isn't cumulative. So in theory you could cause a swarm to take upwards of -100 to any test they have to do. Still it's a pretty expensive way to kill someone.
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
As expensive as a plasma rifle actually. And yeah that makes sense now about the -10 penalty for programming on the fly...though I'm not sure if I would extrapolate it as being cumulative.
Tnargraef Tnargraef's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
There's no reason not to think it wouldn't be. Each EMP burst causes more damage to the swarm and makes it more difficult to function, but again that's just my silly opinion. Interpret it as you will.
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Hmm, I can see your point.
Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Decivre wrote:
It is a bit. Swarmanoids are made up of bug-sized bots, which are significantly larger and likely capable of housing small electronics. Micro- and nanobots are often less than a few hundred micrometers large, and house far less. The size difference is immense, comparable to orders of magnitude. It'd be like saying "if a dildo can fit in your ass, so can a bus".
Deci, this is really terrible. It's not only a bit rude, it's also an awful and very misleading example, because if there's one thing that is inarguably demonstrable in this thread, it's that not all asses are created equal. Some of them are far more excessive than others. Tek, I'm gonna sidestep this whole debate and state something which has been very clear to me since about the tenth post. The short form of your position is 'I have a cool idea, and I really want people to agree with me that it is justifiable and in accord with the RAW.' At the same time, you've stated that you wouldn't play with a GM who would disagree with you on many matters, and that you would try to browbeat a GM who disagreed with you on things you felt were important into accepting your interpretation of the rules. If you think about it, taking those two statements together means that in accordance with your own manner of dealing with GMs, you don't NEED a bunch of people on the internet to agree with you. Your strength is as the strength of ten, because your heart is sure. With that in mind, I will point out that these forums contain many writers, many engineers, and many students who are very into the physics and technology extrapolation of the 'harder' part of the 'hard science' elements in EP. It isn't reasonable to expect that any discussion of 'how does X work in EP?' will do ANYTHING except break down into a debate about how best we can guesstimate the physics and chemistry that would govern the topic focus. Because of this, this thread (like most threads on EP) has knocked back and forth like a superball in microgravity between justification based on RAW or fluff, and justification based on assumed or real engineering. This is normal. What is not normal is the level of vitriol. This is the internet. People will not all agree with you. Particularly in the realm of interpreting the future, people tend to disagree. You've got your idea and you clearly want to run with it the way you see it. That's fine. What's not so fine is turning it into a shouting match and insisting that everyone agree with you on it. Because really, you KNOW they won't. It's the nature of the beast. People disagree constantly over how the world should be. Religions and political systems are founded on this basis. Just accept that not everyone will like your idea, go over the responses you get, cherrypick the elements you agree with and want to use in your game, and discard the rest without taking it personally or engaging in blindfolded internet fisticuffs. You'll be happier. Seriously.
Hotfoot Hotfoot's picture
I have yet to meet man who can outsmart bullet
The way I read the rules re: capsule bullet is that you get 100 rounds for each "purchase" plus the cost of the payload. Not that you buy the payload 100 times, but rather that purchasing the payload is spread throughout the 100 bullets. Let's not forget, for the moment, that individual bullets today are not terribly large, and that capsule rounds, despite halving their damage and lowering their AP, still pack a considerable punch so that the payload can be delivered to the target, ideally inside of them. This, to me, says that the payload, be it biological, chemical, or nanotechnological, should ideally break skin in order to work. The benefit, then of a nanoswarm over the other two is that it would not need to break skin in order to work. I would, however, not give it infinite rounds of working. At best, it would apply the effect of the payload for a round when the target is hit by it, perhaps for additional rounds if you get a good burst off. But for serious damage, why would you bother with nanoswarms? Why not use frogbite? 2d10+10 damage for 3 rounds and Som x 2 or be paralyzed for an hour? Nasty stuff, though you would at least need skin contact for that. As for teleoperating nanoswarms, sure, you *can* do that, but radio ranges limit the effectiveness of the process, because while you might be able to give commands, you can't control them directly. Why not? You can't see through (i.e. teleoperate) the nanoswarm's cameras. While your mesh may have an impressive range, nanoswarms are 20/100m for city/open terrain. So you could send them commands, but you couldn't get back updates, see through their eyes, or even know if they were still functional or not. Worse yet, with EMP, that becomes 2/10m, plus the handling difficulty. Now, could you get a seeker to spread a nanoswarm, RAW, over a ten meter radius, but that splash weapon isn't doing any actual damage apart from what the swarm might do, and with smaller seekers, like mini-grenades and micro-missiles, the likelyhood of each seeker containing a full swarm diminishes, since the swarm "cloud" is reduced to 5 meters. Possible, but clearly not a full sized cloud in that case. Though since you buy seekers in groups of 10, perhaps it should only be 1/10th of a swarm, I'm not sure. I'd have to think about it. Either way, it's either 1 swarm split into somewhat less effective parts, or you have to pay for each swarm individually, which gets cost prohibitive. Now, while you might not like people coming up with new rules TekHed, that's just simply too bad. Any GM worth his salt will take a look at something like combining 1,000 nanoswarms into one 10mx10mx10m area as something that is ridiculous, unrealistic, and thus extraordinarily unlikely, and thus rule against such a thing from occurring. You might not like that, but that's sort of the purpose of a GM, to arbitrate the rules of the world. Moreover, while yes Nanites are meant to be more or less invisible to the naked eye, they do have mass and when you get enough together in a condensed space, you will have a fog-like haze that can be seen with the good old mark one eyeball. The more there are, the more obvious it is that they are there. Rather like humidity. Sure, it's evaporated water, and it's almost always in the air around us, but it's usually invisible, but there comes a point you're made patently aware of its existance, like when fog comes rolling in. Or a cloud. I mean, if you want to talk realistically. Plus, stacking up nanoswarms all in one place makes them even easier to destroy. EMP has a radius of 50m, and plasma grenades do full damage, and anything with a blast radius does at least 1d10 damage to the swarm. If they're all stacked up, any attack on one swarm will damage them all. An EMP/Plasma double tap will wreck their day. Meanwhile, let's say you've only got one swarm, but you condense it down into a smaller cloud. I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says it does more damage the more concentrated the nanites are, so why would multiple swarms automatically increase damage, or even multiple shots from an automatic weapon? See, the issue here is that you would like player ingenuity to be rewarded. You're right in that it should be, but player ingenuity is not simply finding something phenomenally effective, though it can be. What is a problem, quite often is when the players find a loophole in the rules, or something they argue is a loophole in the rules, and take the stance most useful to them at the time. Of course, that's how GM/Player Arms Races get started, and as a word to the wise, players rarely win those sorts of battles. Trust me. When you come up with a new application for existing gear, it helps to have some sort of precedent set by other rules to back up that it is, in fact, possible by the intention of the rules or the setting's level of technology. When you go into completely uncharted territory, it is less likely that what you are considering is plausible for the setting. Moreover, if you've come up with something that could dissolve a habitat's outer hull over a wide area in roughly three seconds with something that's easily available, you really have to ask why this hasn't been done before by anyone else in the fiction.

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