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Guardian Nanoswarms

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Sun, 2012-07-15 19:41
#1
TekHed TekHed's picture
Guardian Nanoswarms
So I'm wondering a bit more on how these things are actually effective. I asked in one of my other threads but it was overlooked so I'm breaking it out: Attacking nanoswarms have a DUR of 50 and do 1d10/2 (average 6) damage per turn. Guardian swarms do the same to enemy swarms. Can a single guardian swarm protect you from all incoming swarms? Say if someone sends 4 disassembler swarms after you...can the guardians engage all of them at once or only one while the others go to work? While the guardian swarm is defending, do the disassemblers still get to damage whatever they were programmed to, or do they have to stop and engage with the Guardians? If the former, then Guardians become a much less potent defense, and I've noticed none of the NPCs tend to carry more than one Guardian swarm which suggests the latter..that the Guardians damage the enemy swarm(s) while preventing them from doing what they were told too. If the former however then taking averages, it is going to take on average about 9 rounds for the Guardians to completely destroy the disassemblers, which would then meanwhile have had a chance to do on average 54 DUR damage to your armor and likely you...meaning you are most likely dead. So, to make Guardians a viable defense, it would seem to require the latter interpretation...that Guardians are effective at stopping any swarms from doing their job, being specialized anti-nanite nanites. It also makes sense that a Guardian swarm would protect against any and all incoming swarms...otherwise it is going to become a matter of who has the most swarms in play, a sort of swarm-supremeacy arms race. Lastly...can one program disassemblers to attack guardians or other nanoswarms...which would make them effectively more expensive disassemblers? If I'm wrong, and a swarm can only engage one swarm at a time, then one might need several swarms of guardian swarms on one's person. It would make a character who specialized in swarm combat very deadly...I'm thinking like having 6 sab swarms and 6 disassembler swarms to send after people, all the while picking off at them with sniper-rail-guns...
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Sun, 2012-07-15 20:08
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
TekHed wrote:
Can a single guardian swarm protect you from all incoming swarms? Say if someone sends 4 disassembler swarms after you...can the guardians engage all of them at once or only one while the others go to work?
Swarming nanomachines act locally - they have no good long-range communications. This means that each piece of a Guardian swarm cannot know what is being engaged elsewhere, and will just do its job locally. So this would mean the swarm will just gobble up enemy nanomachines with no care for which swarm they originated in: just split the damage evenly.
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While the guardian swarm is defending, do the disassemblers still get to damage whatever they were programmed to, or do they have to stop and engage with the Guardians?
Again, nanomachines act locally. A disassembler will not "know" about the guardians until attacked. So they will do damage while being continually reduced.
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So, to make Guardians a viable defense, it would seem to require the latter interpretation...that Guardians are effective at stopping any swarms from doing their job, being specialized anti-nanite nanites.
But this does not make physical sense. So at least in my games I will not use it. Yes, Guardians are limited, but their main use is against stray nanomachines and infiltration, not dense swarms. When dense attackers are noticed, habitats launch serious defence systems. You don't want to be in a dense swarm battle anyway, since the heat and toxin production is likely quite damaging on its own...
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Sun, 2012-07-15 20:14
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
As far as I know, swarms are "area effect" weapons, meaning a guardian swarm doesn't stop a dissamble swarm from dissasembling you. So yeah, just one guardian swarm doesn't do much more than alert you that an enemy swarm is in the area and give you a fighting chance -- and I'm not sure it even warns you at all. Fighting enemy swarms is a multi-step process. It isn't easy. The first line of defense is good intelligence and infosec, so you know what's coming. The second line of defense is a good offense, along with swarms of your own. The third line of defense is carrying lots and lots of EMP and plasma weaponry, usually on micromissiles. The last line of defense is carrying *at least* one guardian hive, and using that hive to support many many guardian swarms. And yes, swarms may be one of the deadliest weapons in the book, along with nuclear and antimatter missiles. As my Sentinel group delved into tougher and tougher battles -- we're talking planetary scale annihilation events against rogue Firewall agents here -- we found ourselves relying increasingly on infosec hacking, and swarms and swarms of swarms, along with delivery mechanisms for those swarms (drones and missiles). As defense, one or more vehicles packed with hundreds of vertical-launch cells containing plasmaburst weapons. A camera photographing events inside our command vehicle would have seen nothing more than a few people sitting absolutely still in chairs for hours, thinking very hard. It was quite exciting. Warfare is a different creature in the future of Eclipse Phase.
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Sun, 2012-07-15 20:41
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Mostly I'm interested in having a viable defense against nanoswarms being used to attack my gear. Apparently according to these replies one guardian swarm is not going to cut it. How many guardian swarms can a specialized guardian swarm hive support then? Do I need to buy separate hives for each guardian swarm? Sounds like I would need many many of them (preferably implanted) to protect myself and my stuff. I would argue that if you have a guardian swarm around you, it would send you a signal when it engaged the enemy, so you would know (aside from seeing your armor start to dissolve). I wish Guardians could actually protect you though...since as my number crunching shows even a single disassembler swarm sent at you is going to disintegrate you before the guardians will kill them. Unless you have emp weapons on you you are screwed, since you aren't going to hose yourself down with plasma! I can however see using emp micromissles/grenades that you can pull the pin on while holding to damage a swarm that is on you. One thing it says is that EMP weapons impose a -20 on the swarms actions...yet I see no stats for swarms that would be effected... they don't roll to attack you, they just do straight damage...so what is the impact of this clause for EMPs? Agreed that seeing the swarm coming can help, but it won't help much if someone has weaponized them against you (Buzzers, splash bullets, or nanotats as I saw someone suggest elsewhere here). Hmm...for my next character inspiration I am going to make a nanotech combat specialist...
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Sun, 2012-07-15 20:51
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
It's good that you are starting to think through the implications of swarm combat. Guns are a chump's weapon :-). One hive can support potentially hundreds of swarms. It only takes a few hours -- and some materials -- to make a swarm. If you get attacked, run away and shoot the enemy swarm with plasmaburst weapons or EMP. Swarms aren't all that fast. Backup your guardians with fixer swarms that can repair any damage you DO take. And yeah, the swarm mechanics aren't very well defined. That -20 does nothing that I'm aware of. Another issue ran into was, can swarms be hacked? Can they be controlled after launch? The book seems to suggest they can be controlled, and the technology seems to support this: after all, scout swarms can communicate, and any swarm that can communicate can be controlled and therefore presumably hacked. So, Infosec might be able to help. Hacking *is* the most powerful weapon in the game, bar none.
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Sun, 2012-07-15 20:57
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Yeah I read somewhere on here about a character someone had made who was a Triad/Yakuza assassin who killed people by using nanoswarms contolled by Delta forks of his own ego, disguised as tattoos when not in use. I like this so much I'm going to shamelessly steal it and adapt it for my own purposes. I'm also going to take the money I spent on a guardian nanoswarm hive for my Gatecrasher character and use the money to purchase emp grendaes...sure he doesn't have much in the way of thrown weapons or skill using seekers, but if their primary purpose is for him to "detonate" them in his hand when he becomes aware of a hostile swarm then it doesn't much matter...last ditch defense.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 01:58
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Madwand wrote:
It's good that you are starting to think through the implications of swarm combat. Guns are a chump's weapon :-). >snip< One hive can support potentially hundreds of swarms.... Hacking *is* the most powerful weapon in the game, bar none.
In that case, may I present to you: [b]Concept:[/b] Bug/Hunter [B]Bio in Brief:[/b] Legion was originally an AI designed by an Argonaut scientist to study nanotech swarm dynamics and control. Unfortunately said scientist was assassinated...and his backups erased...by an elite Jovian wetwork/hacker team. Now Legion seeks vengeance... [b]Legion[/b] Player: Tekhed Background: Infolife Faction: Argonaut Morph: Infomade Gender Id: Neuter Actual Age: ??? Current Moxie: Rez Points: Motivations: +Nanoecology +Technoprogressivism -Jovian Junta [b]Abilities[/b] COG 40 COO 20 INT 20 REF 20 SAV 10 SOM 40 WIL 40 [b]Stats[/b] TT 16 LUC 80 IR 160 WT 10 DUR 50 DR 75 MOX 2 INIT 8 SPD 2(1) DB 4 [b]Armor[/b] Energy = [b]17[/b] Kinetic = [b]14[/b] [b]Reputation[/b] i-rep = [b]50[/b] r-rep = [b]50[/b] [b]Ego Traits:[/b] Black Mark (Jovian) (Level 3), Edited Memories (Level 1), Enemy (Jovian Junta) (Level 1), Real World Naivete (Level 1), Social Stigma (Level 1) [b]Implants:[/b] Implants: Basic Biomods, Basic Mesh Inserts, Cortical Stack, Eidetic Memory, Math Boost, Circadian Regulation, Clean Metabolism, Drug Glands: Klar, Enhanced Respiration, Muscle Augmentation, Neurachem (L1), Temperature Tolerance, Toxin Filters, High Gravity Adaptation, Ghostrider Module, Mnemonic Augmentation, (2x) Cyberlimb+, Hardened Skeleton, Reflex Booster, Medichines, Nanophage, Wrist-Mounted Tools [b]Gear:[/b] Gear: Nanodetectors, Fabber, Blueprint: Hive:Disassemblers, Blueprint: Hive: Fixers, Blueprint: Hive: Guardians, Blueprint: Hive: Saboteurs, Blueprint: Hive: Scouts, Smart Roach, Anonymous Account, Backup Insurance (mod), Simulspace Subscription, Encryption, Exploit, Facial/Image Recognition, Firewall, Sniffer, Spoof, Tactical Networks, Tracking, Radio Motion Detector, Relationship Mapping, Standard Muse, Second Skin, Smart Skin, Smart Vacsuit (standard) (w/ Ablative Patches, Chameleon Coating, Fireproofing, Lotus Coating, Offensive Armor, Shock Proof, Faraday Mod), SMG (w/ Smartlink,Safety System, Extended Magazine, Gyromount, Silencer), Underbarrel Seeker (w/ Smartlink,Safety System, Extended Magazine), (100x) Accushot Splash SMG Rounds, (9x) Accushot Plasmaburst Micromissile Credits = [b]0[/b] [b]Skills[/b] Academics: Computer Science: 80 Academics: Nanotechnology: 80 Academics: Cryptography: 80 Academics: Genetics: 80 Blades: 40 Climbing: 40 Clubs: 40 Flight: 40[b]SOM[/b] Fray (Melee): 75 (85) Freefall: 60 Freerunning (Full Defense): 80 (90) Infiltration: 50[b]COO[/b] Infosec (Hacking): 80 (90) Interfacing: 80 Kinetic Weapons (SMG): 70 (80) Language: Japanese: 90 Networking: Firewall: 25 Networking: Scientists: 40 Perception: 50 Profession: Engineering (Nanoswarm): 80 (90) Programming (Nanoswarm): 80 (90) Research: 80 Seeker Weapons (Underbarrel): 70 (80) Swimming: 40 [b]Design Considerations and Tactics:[/b] Well...since Madwand said that guns are chump weapons and hacking is the most powerful weapon, I thought I might combine the two for my latest entry. As both a skilled hacker/infiltrator and combat character, I really can't go wrong with this one. I'll always have something of value to contribute. The "Infomade" morph is a custom morph I came up with that is simply a Remade morph but with a +10 to COO instead of COG. I wanted to max out COG and WIL so that even as just an infomorph he can hack in style, but retains that ability in his morph. I also got rid of the uncanny valley trait since that is largely an affectation of the Ultimates who originally designed the remade and morphs can look like pretty much whatever. He also took a biomorph to stave off cyberbrain hacking and has a ghostrider module where an alpha or beta fork can run mesh operations simultaneously with him. As per the inspiration above, he probably has delta forks controlling his swarms...short of the TITANs returning, he is pretty much the Jovian's worst nightmare. :P Essentially he has the blueprints to stick into his fabber and make nano-hives of various sorts (more to be gained in game). He churns out disassembler nanites from said hive and sticks them into splash bullets with them programmed to attack whatever they hit. For defense he will have around 10 or so guardian hives on him at any given time as well as an underbarrel launcher for plasmaburst weapons. Nanodetector for early warning. :) How did I do?
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Mon, 2012-07-16 06:36
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
If you want to play with nanoswarms, then there is a weapon you might want to look into. Its called the buzzer (core rulebook, p. 341). It is a spray weapon that fires nanoswarms. It says that it can store up to 3 nanoswarms as ammunition. It also says it can be equipped (and normally is) with a specialized nanohive, which can produce a new swarm in 1 hour. On the topic of the production of nanoswarms. Since a nanohive can produce 1 new nanoswarm per hour and a nanoswarms last 2 weeks, then a single nanohive should to be able to produce and support up to 336 nanoswarms at any given time (1 nanoswarm per hour*24 hours per day*14 days = 336). I would like to know how much mass a nanoswarm has, and how volume it would occupy when stored (not deployed).
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Mon, 2012-07-16 08:47
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
I know of the buzzer and consider it an inferior weapon. Inferior range, payload, and therefore effectiveness. With a kinetic weapon firing splat rounds containing swarms, I can shoot 3 swarms per action in burst fire mode, or 10 in full auto. That's damage comparable to a plasma rifle...that will multiply each round when I hit them again. Meanwhile their armor, weapons, communications are hosed, and they are likely being hacked by the fork in my ghost module.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 08:48
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
double post.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 09:12
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
DivineWrath wrote:
I would like to know how much mass a nanoswarm has, and how volume it would occupy when stored (not deployed).
Citing myself from this thread: http://www.eclipsephase.com/nanoswarm-stats-and-qs
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2) How visible are they? Without a nanodetector, can I look at all the tons of nanites and see a faint fog, or is it clear air until my armor starts dissolving for no apparent reason?
Likely depends on the size and density. Obviously, if you have a ton of nanites in the air of a room it will look like it is full of smoke. Nanites larger than 0.5 micron will start to diffract light (at this size they mainly scatter blue light, think cigarette smoke) and above 0.75 micron they will scatter red too - this scattering might produce a colored mist effect. Larger nanites will start to produce a cloud effect (since scattering increases with the sixth power of the particle size, and you get multiple reflections) when their density gets big enough. Loose calculation: suppose we have N nanites per cubic meter. They have radius r. The total cross sectional area is pi N r^2. When this is about 1 m^2, the nanites start becoming opaque. Now, assume a 2 micron nanite (r=10^-6 m). You need 3*10^11 nanites. If they have diamond density that is about 4.6 grams. Larger nanomachines can have heavier yet invisible swarms. Note that for disassemblers you probably need a few grams or more, since the nanites need to carry with them energy to do what is essentially chemical reactions - their total weight will need to correspond to some fraction of the material they are attacking. Guardians can be much lighter since they might just sabotage nanites, but if they are to act like disassemblers for enemy nanites the same rule of thumb is needed.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 11:12
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
A few things to consider, first the damage of a dissasember swarm will do on average is 3, not 6. The average of a d10 is 5.5, divided by 2 is 2.25, rounded up is 3. This means an enemy with 30 DUR will have an average 10 rounds to act, depending on initiative and assuming he is wearing no armor. This means a dissasembler swarm will kill 30 durability unarmored targets anywhere from 18 seconds to 1 minute 30 seconds. Honestly, the best defense is just to not stand in a swarm. They are more likely handled as a area denial weapons than anything else in combat. If you leave the area of a swarm, they won't follow unless they are told to. As for the best defense if you want to stand in one, a combination of reactive armor and gaurdian swarm would do a really decent job. Toss in a EMP grenade and all you really lost was a little armor rating and communications for a bit. As for the character and relevance to the topic. A buzzer is a weapon that is built to release a swarm, I doubt one splash round can house the equal amount to one swarm. If someone could clarify this better, I would appreciate it. Lets for argument sake assume each splash round can house a swarm, you still need to program each swarm prior to releasing them (page 328). Each splat bullet also needs to be refilled every 2 weeks or the swarm will be dead. Now the time constraint, each hive will take about four to five hours to produce through nanofabrication, they fall in between high and expensive, page 285. If you are going to use the hives in the bullets, which I see being hard since the smallest special hive is a 12 gauge shell size, it would take you about 80 hours to 100 hours to produce a full SMG clip. Than they need to be programmed prior to releasing them. As for hacking in combat, defeating a firewall is handled as a 10 minute task action. It will take some time.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 14:27
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Geonis wrote:
A few things to consider, first the damage of a dissasember swarm will do on average is 3, not 6. The average of a d10 is 5.5, divided by 2 is 2.25, rounded up is 3.
Thank god somebody else saw that, I was about the flip my desk over.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 15:16
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Geonis wrote:
As for hacking in combat, defeating a firewall is handled as a 10 minute task action. It will take some time.
Although, depending on how you handle reducing a task actions time scale via modifiers to 0% (which is possible with the current Infosec rules), it is still possible. Just very, very difficult. And unreliable.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 15:55
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
CodeBreaker wrote:
Although, depending on how you handle reducing a task actions time scale via modifiers to 0% (which is possible with the current Infosec rules), it is still possible. Just very, very difficult. And unreliable
Ah, will need to reread the hacking portion again, must have missed it. I was running off the task action on page 120, where you could reduce it to 40% the original time by taking a -60 to the test. Take you for pointing this out, sometime the rules are very scattered around with exceptions.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 16:01
NewAgeOfPower NewAgeOfPower's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
CodeBreaker wrote:
Geonis wrote:
As for hacking in combat, defeating a firewall is handled as a 10 minute task action. It will take some time.
Although, depending on how you handle reducing a task actions time scale via modifiers to 0% (which is possible with the current Infosec rules), it is still possible. Just very, very difficult. And unreliable.
Is it possible to hack while running in 60x Simulspace? Then you could hack through a firewall in 10 seconds... vastly different from 10 minutes.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 16:19
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
I've often wanted to know what it would take to replace a cyberbrain with a 60x simulspace, for exactly that reason. Unfortunately, the rules on how much extra computational power contribute to success are rather lacking. I've been in situations where both sides of an infosec conflict had access to large, powerful servers. How does this affect infosec? I wish I knew.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 16:35
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
NewAgeOfPower wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:
Geonis wrote:
As for hacking in combat, defeating a firewall is handled as a 10 minute task action. It will take some time.
Although, depending on how you handle reducing a task actions time scale via modifiers to 0% (which is possible with the current Infosec rules), it is still possible. Just very, very difficult. And unreliable.
Is it possible to hack while running in 60x Simulspace? Then you could hack through a firewall in 10 seconds... vastly different from 10 minutes.
Since hacking requires getting communication back from the system you are hacking: no. While you might be faster the system your hacking isn't.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 16:47
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
According to what I understand about about doing task actions, being able to take more actions in less time does actually help. For example, higher speed and/or mental speed help you hack faster. It's not a terrible house rule to say this isn't the case, though it does devalue these augmentations for those who have them.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 16:47
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
To reinforce TadanoriOyama point, much like the reason mental speed lets you take more mental actions, while multitasking lets your take more mental and mesh actions. Just because you think faster, doesn't mean you can interface with something faster. View it like this, the device, keyboard and mouse in my case, must be interacted with before anything happens. Wither or not I take 1 minute or one hour to think on it, the amount of time I must spend pressing keys will stay the same if the same action occurs.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 17:06
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
I understand your point, even if I disagree with it. Your example was not helpful. If you can point out a reference in the rules to say that extra actions do not help, that would be useful. Let us try a different task action example, such as programming. This is an entirely mental action that does not require interfacing with any other device outside your head. In this case, it should be obvious that extra speed, particularly mental speed, should help. Yet; the rules do not call out any kinds of different task actions, do not differentiate between task actions in which extra speed helps vs. actions in which it does not. This is why I think ruling that extra actions does not help is a reasonable house rule, but I do not think it reflects the rules.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 17:22
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
@Madwand, I'll cite my sources for my conclusion and let you draw your own.
Multi-tasking (Page 307) wrote:
... This augmentation can produce a maximum of two forks at a time, giving the character an extra two Complex Actions on every Action Phase for mental or on-line actions. ...
Mental Speed (Page 308) wrote:
... When using this augmentation, the character gains two extra Complex Actions during each Action Phase that may only be used for mental actions. ...
This give me the idea that mental and on-line actions are different, hence hacking something else would be online. However, I would agree that if everything is internal, no outside interactions taking place, perhaps the extra mental actions would assist. Admittedly I do waver some on this to either way and largely still remain undecided on my own interpretations. It is in essence the only reason to take multitasking over mental speed, as they both cost the same. However, if you are interacting with an external object for your programming, I would be of the thought it would not. It would assist in planning perhaps, but not the actual programming. Honestly, not all the rules are set in stone and can be easily adjust to your own feelings of how it should play out.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 17:35
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Geonis wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:
Although, depending on how you handle reducing a task actions time scale via modifiers to 0% (which is possible with the current Infosec rules), it is still possible. Just very, very difficult. And unreliable
Ah, will need to reread the hacking portion again, must have missed it. I was running off the task action on page 120, where you could reduce it to 40% the original time by taking a -60 to the test. Take you for pointing this out, sometime the rules are very scattered around with exceptions.
You combine it with the rules that reduce timescale further depending on your MoS. 60% off by rushing the job, and then another 40% off by getting an MoS of 40. It was easier to do before the 3rd Printing errata, but still possible now.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 17:39
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
I agree, there is quite a lot of room for interpretation in the rules. Your distinction between multi-tasking and mental speed is interesting; I actually make the distinction in the opposite direction. For me, mental speed increases the mental speed of a single ego for any mental action, which includes "online" actions. Multi-tasking on the other hand is only good for, well, multi-tasking. Having those extra actions performed by other egos might give you a bonus for having assistants, but won't directly increase your speed. The implants do different things, IMO. Oh, and regardless of your interpretation, having higher normal speed from neurochem or the like will still making hacking attempts go faster.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 18:04
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
@Codebreaker, Interesting, I wonder however if it would effect the max time or the new time by the 40%. Ergo, would it be 10 reduced by 60% plus 40% equaling 0 seconds, or 10 reduced by 60% than 40% equaling 2 minutes and 24 seconds. I am more inclined to the last one, but will look into it more. @Madwand, My thoughts are founded that some physical (either ecto, augmented reality, etc) must transpire for the mesh/online interaction. So no matter how fast one ego would think, he is limited due to his ability to use said mediums. I will agreed speed boosting implants help, mainly due to increased ability to operate such things. I think the main view point that effects me most is, online actions are not driven by mental thought alone. Hence the ability to use things will eventually become to bottleneck of how fast you can act online. Why I also view multitasking allows multiple online actions is the separate egos can still interact on a electronic level as well as think on their own, while the mental speed is still limited by its ability to interact with speed one. While I still hold my views, I will have to reassess at them some. [b]EDIT: [/b] One last thing, reading the intro to the mesh, most users get mesh information from the AR. The value of this is as such, while the mental speed only still retains one AR, the multiple egos have their own AR, thus can operate on their own. Largely posted to strengthen my point that the bottleneck is interfacing related, not mental speed of the ego. Still like the discussion however.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 18:21
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Madwand wrote:
I agree, there is quite a lot of room for interpretation in the rules. Your distinction between multi-tasking and mental speed is interesting; I actually make the distinction in the opposite direction. For me, mental speed increases the mental speed of a single ego for any mental action, which includes "online" actions. Multi-tasking on the other hand is only good for, well, multi-tasking. Having those extra actions performed by other egos might give you a bonus for having assistants, but won't directly increase your speed. The implants do different things, IMO. Oh, and regardless of your interpretation, having higher normal speed from neurochem or the like will still making hacking attempts go faster.
I'm unconvinced that raw speed can make a major change to Task Actions. The system already accounts for being quicker or more efficient in your actions when undertaking a Task Action by having the MoS reduce the total time. Extra relievent actions might provide a bonus (+10 or +20) or allow for a "free" reduction of one or two degrees; I don't think they will reduce the total time by something drastic, such as cutting it in half.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 18:44
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Geonis wrote:
A few things to consider, first the damage of a dissasember swarm will do on average is 3, not 6. The average of a d10 is 5.5, divided by 2 is 2.25, rounded up is 3. This means an enemy with 30 DUR will have an average 10 rounds to act, depending on initiative and assuming he is wearing no armor. This means a dissasembler swarm will kill 30 durability unarmored targets anywhere from 18 seconds to 1 minute 30 seconds. Honestly, the best defense is just to not stand in a swarm. They are more likely handled as a area denial weapons than anything else in combat. If you leave the area of a swarm, they won't follow unless they are told to. As for the best defense if you want to stand in one, a combination of reactive armor and gaurdian swarm would do a really decent job. Toss in a EMP grenade and all you really lost was a little armor rating and communications for a bit. As for the character and relevance to the topic. A buzzer is a weapon that is built to release a swarm, I doubt one splash round can house the equal amount to one swarm. If someone could clarify this better, I would appreciate it. Lets for argument sake assume each splash round can house a swarm, you still need to program each swarm prior to releasing them (page 328). Each splat bullet also needs to be refilled every 2 weeks or the swarm will be dead. Now the time constraint, each hive will take about four to five hours to produce through nanofabrication, they fall in between high and expensive, page 285. If you are going to use the hives in the bullets, which I see being hard since the smallest special hive is a 12 gauge shell size, it would take you about 80 hours to 100 hours to produce a full SMG clip. Than they need to be programmed prior to releasing them. As for hacking in combat, defeating a firewall is handled as a 10 minute task action. It will take some time.
If a specialize -Hive- is the size of a shotgun shell, then it stands to reason that an individual swarm can be condensed into a splash round (indeed I got the idea from other posts/discussions here so I can't claim any of this as my own discovery). As for programming, they can either be preprogrammed to eat whatever the round hits (your argument about just moving out of the cloud doesn't work if they hit directly and spread out, sticking to the surface), with certain limitations like not eating myself or my gear if turned against me, or eating through the outer seal of a space station, and/or they can be controlled by delta forks of my own ego, which I can interface with through some kind of comm-link. You misunderstand though...it will take me some time to fab the hives but after that point I would implant them in my morph. I'm not putting a hive itself into each bullet. Rather I would program the hive to configure the swarm output into a small cylinder that would be filled into the splash round. It would still take some time to manually fill the rounds, but not nearly as long as you say, and I'll handle the programming conditions at the time I create the swarm-rounds. In my example, each swarm does 3 damage on average per round, so a full auto burst would do on average 30 damage per round, and with full auto, smartlinks, and accushot splash rounds they will almost certainly hit the target. They next round it would be 60 damage if I hit them with a second burst...60 average damage per round is going to eat through anything damn quickly. As a failsafe I would probably program them to die off a few phases after being activated, or after whatever they hit has been obliterated. For more fun have one out of every three rounds be saboteurs that are preprogrammed to go after comm and weapon systems. Of course these weaponized swarms would be in addition to the personal swarms he keeps on him that he can program on the fly (using mental speed and/or multitasking) to do precision work, like someone mentioned attacking the bolts holding the joints of a synth together. From what I have read of the EP system so far, it is designed to be fast and loose and reward this level of creativity.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 18:50
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
TekHed wrote:
I know of the buzzer and consider it an inferior weapon. Inferior range, payload, and therefore effectiveness. With a kinetic weapon firing splat rounds containing swarms, I can shoot 3 swarms per action in burst fire mode, or 10 in full auto. That's damage comparable to a plasma rifle...that will multiply each round when I hit them again. Meanwhile their armor, weapons, communications are hosed, and they are likely being hacked by the fork in my ghost module.
Splat rounds likely have a smaller capacity than the buzzer or sprayer with regards to how big a swarm payload they can deliver at a time. That would be the one benefit that the buzzer might have over splat rounds.
Madwand wrote:
According to what I understand about about doing task actions, being able to take more actions in less time does actually help. For example, higher speed and/or mental speed help you hack faster. It's not a terrible house rule to say this isn't the case, though it does devalue these augmentations for those who have them.
Actually, there is no way to increase your speed. From what I remember from the rules (for the first time, I don't have a copy handy), you must spend an action every turn to do your task, and it will finish at the same rate no matter who you are. Mental speed and multitasking still have a benefit though. You may continue to do other tasks while committing to a task action (especially relevant for multitasking; I can see some scenarios where someone might rule that mental speed would not grant this benefit).
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Mon, 2012-07-16 19:09
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Decivre wrote:
Madwand wrote:
According to what I understand about about doing task actions, being able to take more actions in less time does actually help. For example, higher speed and/or mental speed help you hack faster. It's not a terrible house rule to say this isn't the case, though it does devalue these augmentations for those who have them.
Actually, there is no way to increase your speed. From what I remember from the rules (for the first time, I don't have a copy handy), you must spend an action every turn to do your task, and it will finish at the same rate no matter who you are. Mental speed and multitasking still have a benefit though. You may continue to do other tasks while committing to a task action (especially relevant for multitasking; I can see some scenarios where someone might rule that mental speed would not grant this benefit).
Also from memory (I do have a copy handy, just lazy). The game rules don't actually touch on the subject at all. In any way. There isn't any suggestion from the devs on how they intend high speed characters and task actions to interact. What you are describing is an extremely common house rule, such that it appears so often it may as well be RAW. It is also an elegant solution to the issue. It allows high speed characters to concentrate on multiple task actions at once (multiple hacks going on at the same time), it is thematically acceptable, and it isn't OP in anyway. Edit: There is actually a little bit of advise on page 190, in that it states you cannot accomplish a complex action and a task action during the same action phase. But it is ambiguous.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 19:09
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Quote:
Splat rounds likely have a smaller capacity than the buzzer or sprayer with regards to how big a swarm payload they can deliver at a time. That would be the one benefit that the buzzer might have over splat rounds.
...except that nothing in the rules says this. By the book we know that: a.) hives can be as small as a shotgun shell b.) swarms themselves are microscopic and invisible. I personally think the buzzer is just totally off as a weapon, like someone didn't think it through. The buzzer is a two handed weapon, and it sprays the swarm out like a well...sprayer. The advantage here of course would be that at close range you could hose down an area or more than one person, and everything in the area would begin to take the swarm damage. It's just that you would think a weapon the size of a shotgun could hold many specialized hives worth...maybe 10 or so going by some modern standards. That is -10- specialized hives in one two handed weapon, and say each hive held only one swarm...that would give you at least 10 shots....of a whole hive. Realisitically a weapon that big should have a much larger ammo capacity. Again, I think it is simply a poorly thought out and incredibly underwhelming weapon. Why would I want a weapon that is super short range and will do -at most- 9 damage per round to my targets? If I'm in danger and want t a serious weapon I would as a player -never- take a buzzer. At that range, a shredder would beat it every time. Is my strategy deadly? Yes. Are nanoswarms supposed to be deadly? Yes. As someone else pointed out they can be one of the most lethal aspects of the game.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 19:24
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
TekHed][quote wrote:
Why would I want a weapon that is super short range and will do -at most- 9 damage per round to my targets? If I'm in danger and want t a serious weapon I would as a player -never- take a buzzer. At that range, a shredder would beat it every time.
You might want it in a situation where you would like to deploy a swarm at range and not [i]also shot it with a bullet[/i]. A buzzer doesn't fill the same role as a gun with fillable rounds, it is simply a weapon designed to deploy swarms. The shredder would certainly do more damage in a similar situation and if damage is the goal then the shredder is the better weapon for the job. It's a specialized tool.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 19:45
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
er...maybe? A Shredder at close range with a full auto burst would do what...6d10+5 with -10 ap. That is on average 37 damage defended by whatever armor the target is wearing minus 10. A full auto burst of 10 disassembler rounds could be done at far ranges (using accushots) and would do on average 30 damage per round...eating away at the armor itself, and then going after the person inside afterwards in following rounds. The Shredder kills the person in the first round in this example, the swarm in the second. Though I agree...spraying with a buzzer would have uses beyond just shooting people. I still think it is a poorly thought out weapon/swarm delivery system. With my way, I could have a clip of fixers and shoot them at allies. hee!
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Mon, 2012-07-16 20:04
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
And what about and I know this is a crazy, borderline insane, idea: what if you [u]don't[/u] want to kill someone? I'm engaging in hyperbole here in an effort to make a point. Killing someone is not the end all of weapon design and certainly not the universal goal of a Firewall agent. Different situations call for different reactions; not every device and weapon is suited to the same function. Maybe I just want to deploy a swarm in a given place and position. The bullet will touch whatever it hits with the swarm and it will stay there. That certainly has a place; it isn't that helpful for placing a swarm in three dimensional space (i.e. the bullet has to hit something).
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Mon, 2012-07-16 20:06
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
My issue with the character isn't method of fight at all. I think it embraced the ideals of Eclipse Phase well. I am aware they are deadly, do its a well crafted explosive and many other things. My issue really is the method of delivery. While the exact size needed to house a nanoswarm is never stated, nor the size which splash bullets can contain, it is however hinted at. A splash kinetic ammo can house [i]paint, taggant nanobots, tracker dye, and similar substances[/i], page 338. While a splash grenade can hold [i]drug, chemical, nanoswarm, paint[/i], page 341. You assumed a splash bullet fired from a kinetic gun can house a swarm, I believe you assumed wrong and stated as such. No evidence says either of us a directly wrong, however my interpretation of what is there points to this not being the case. This is in essence what criticism is, I am not saying your wrong, only that I perceive that you made a fault or mistake and am point it out. I can disagree with an aspect, splash ammo can contain nanoswarms, but that doesn't mean I disagree with the whole concept. Also, the leaving a nanoswarm was in reference to the original question posed, yes you can do things that will allow someone fleeing to still take damage. The ultimate best defense against nanoswarms is preventative measures, not reactive.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 20:08
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
It's true; I've found you can usually do better in a situation by not killing. It's harder, but makes for a more successful mission.
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Mon, 2012-07-16 21:34
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Quote:
And what about and I know this is a crazy, borderline insane, idea: what if you don't want to kill someone? I'm engaging in hyperbole here in an effort to make a point. Killing someone is not the end all of weapon design and certainly not the universal goal of a Firewall agent. Different situations call for different reactions; not every device and weapon is suited to the same function. Maybe I just want to deploy a swarm in a given place and position. The bullet will touch whatever it hits with the swarm and it will stay there. That certainly has a place; it isn't that helpful for placing a swarm in three dimensional space (i.e. the bullet has to hit something).
Quote:
It's true; I've found you can usually do better in a situation by not killing. It's harder, but makes for a more successful mission.
Oh, TOTALLY. That is what I love about this particular build actually, and why it might be my favorite out of the 3 I have come up with so far. My first character (Xeus) was definitely a more combat oriented character...but that is because he is expected to defend a Gatecrashing team from hostile xenomorphs. Sure, killing is only useful sometimes, but there are definitely times when being able to be lethal is important. In the case of Xeus, he also uses Freezers to capture live specimens for study. With regards to my Legion concept, I think this may be my most favorite, most workable concept to date. The trouble with Xeus is that he is designed with most of his resources sunk into his morph, which is in many ways a matter of GM fiat whether I'll be able to make use of it or not. With Legion however, I have maximum versatility. Sure he starts off with a pretty boss morph ability wise, but his hacking is through the roof and as has been pointed out, Mesh skills will almost always be useful (with a notable exception being Gatecrashing). There is just so much that can be done in this setting through the mesh. Second, with a maxed out WIL and an infolife background I have a character who is incredibly mentally hardy and better able to hold up under the kinds of mental stresses in this transhuman horror genre...highly useful. Xeus also benefits from a high WIL. BEcause I am less attached to my morph and I have the blueprints to make my hives as part of my ego, so long as I have a basic fabber I'll be able to stick with my schtick...which is the other cool thing about using nanoswarms for combat...major style points. Lastly, I like this build for it's sheer versatility. I'll start with Disassemblers, Fixers and Guardians in the form of hive blueprints...so I can attack, defend, and repair. As has been noted swarms are programmable, meaning I have great versatility beyond straight killing. Maybe I program them to go after the enemy's weapons? As the game goes on I'll get more blueprints...in particular engineering nanites, and with the profession engineering (nanoswarms) I'll be able to do some pretty versatile stuff to help my team. So...in essence I think this is my favorite build so far because it has: mental hardiness, mesh and real world versatility, is not morph dependent, and is highly stylish. Also being an infolife means I won't have as many compunctions about doing crazy transhuman things like forking myself off as much as is needed to accomplish my goals. An all around effective and fun character.
Quote:
My issue with the character isn't method of fight at all. I think it embraced the ideals of Eclipse Phase well. I am aware they are deadly, do its a well crafted explosive and many other things.
What is cool though is that an explosive damages everything, and potentially the thing you wanted. I could program the swarm to eat everything except the cortical stack for instance, or a particular piece of equipment I wanted to capture. That is why I am coming around to the idea of a nanoswarm-optimised character being so incredibly fun and useful to play in a setting, -especially- with uber-hacking skills and a high end morph. :)
Quote:
My issue really is the method of delivery. While the exact size needed to house a nanoswarm is never stated, nor the size which splash bullets can contain, it is however hinted at. A splash kinetic ammo can house paint, taggant nanobots, tracker dye, and similar substances, page 338. While a splash grenade can hold drug, chemical, nanoswarm, paint, page 341. You assumed a splash bullet fired from a kinetic gun can house a swarm, I believe you assumed wrong and stated as such. No evidence says either of us a directly wrong, however my interpretation of what is there points to this not being the case. This is in essence what criticism is, I am not saying your wrong, only that I perceive that you made a fault or mistake and am point it out. I can disagree with an aspect, splash ammo can contain nanoswarms, but that doesn't mean I disagree with the whole concept.
Well...I suppose we can agree to disagree on that. I see no reason why a taggant swarm would take up less room than a disassembler swarm or any other swarm. Both are microscopic and both are made in a hives that are the same size. If a GM was really going to be a hardass about it though, I would ditch kinetic weapons skill and focus on seekers to deliver microgrenades with my swarms...and would make an argument for minimissile size grenades to contain 2 or 3 swarms per missile. The concept would still be workable, though I would definitely make an argument for using swarms in kinetic rounds. Swarms are -really- small, especially when compacted. ...I think I'm just about ready now to seek out a PbP game... :D
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Tue, 2012-07-17 00:49
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Quote:
I see no reason why a taggant swarm would take up less room than a disassembler swarm or any other swarm.
They would take up the same room if both were swarms, the kinetic round hold nanobots, not swarms. Swarms are made of nanobots, nanobots are smaller than a swarm. Kinetic rounds hold nanobots, grenades hold swarms. A standard swarm fills a 10 x 10 x 10 meter area once released, individual nanobots are smaller than [s]1mm in size[/s] the naked eye can see. There is a rather large size difference when it comes down to it, While swarms can be small, the individual nanobots are smaller. And kinetic bullets hold the bots, not the swarm. [s]Speaking of which, back to the original question, you should be able to see a nanobot swarm easily, it would be a cloud of sand particle sized robots. Honestly, scouting ahead it a really good option and will prevent you from entering into any swarms.[/s] EDIT: Madwand pointed out an error, I made the mistake of switching nanobots and microbots sizes. I apologize. However, I still hold my size comparison still hold, however my second point is wholly inaccurate.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 00:39
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Uh.. no. Nanobots are nanoscale, not meter-scale. A nanoswarm is invisible, unless it is packed very tightly, in which case it will look like smoke. Individual nanobots are sized smaller than the wavelength of light, making them truly invisible.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 01:18
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Geonis...sorry but that is just not accurate. Taggants are listed in the nanoswarm section...they fill up the same area as any other nanoswarm and follow the same rules. Whatever size difference there may be it is still on the nanoscale and a kinetic splash bullet should still be able to hold a whole one. Nothing in the book that I have read leads me to believe otherwise. Of course we are free to disagree, but your argument for the taggants being bigger just is not true in this case. The section in the book saying that taggants can go in cartridges while the other kinds of swarms have to go in seekers or grenades is either simply in error, or put in as an arbitrary and capricious method of limiting the power of swarms but honestly in this game the things you are up against are so powerful that no amount of minmaxing is going to be able to save you if the GM decides it's time for you ton resleeve. Saying that one swarm can fit into a kinetic round and another cannot is just plain arbitrary and dumb and I'd probably just go find a different GM if they tried to pull such reasoning on me. Nanoswarms are nanoswarms plain and simple...they are invisible, fill a 10x10 meter cube and all follow the same rules. edit: just to clarify the section says "paints, toxins, taggant nanobots and similar substances." It seems you are making some kind of inferred arbitrary jump about the taggants that is not true, as they still qualify as swarms. If a round can hold a taggant swarm it can hold a disassebler swarm. I suspect this use of semantics you are quoting from the book in this case is really just a semantical lack of clarity on the book's authors. Functionally, nanobots and nanoswarms are the same when it comes to splash rounds for kinetics and for seekers...the difference is the seekers splash the round out to 10 meters while the kinetic rounds seem to splash only on the target...
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Tue, 2012-07-17 01:38
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Just finished reviewing the nanoswarm section and TekHed is right; taggant nanobots can be a swarm. We should note that they (they meaning all swarms) are not "invisible". That is a very specific term in Eclipse Phase. Nanoswarms are nano-scale and clearly visible to anyone with nano-scale vision enhancements. The book does not say you can't put nanoswarms into splash ammo, nor does it say that you can so this is an issue to be resolved by individual GMs. I would make the case that a splash bullet likely carries a small amount of taggant nanobots suspended in a medium of some kind rather than an entire swarm packed into a single bullet; enough to mark the target that is struck but not swarm out and tag others. I would extend that to other types of nanobot, reducing the effectiveness due to vastly reduced number and surface area. It's been awhile since physics but I believe that impact force is reduced due to small size so nanobots can likely be struck against a solid object quite hard (i.e. shot out of a gun in a splash bullet). That said, I believe if you filled the entire area of a splash round with nanobots you would be left with what is, for all intents, a solid ball of matter. Said ball is likely to suffer considerable damage on contact with the target, destroying a section of the swarm. Farther, the swarm is encased in a small area, a square inch or two, rather than the 'normal' encompassing cloud. Long story short, I think that it is something you could do and it would result in a less effective deployment of a nanoswarm than a programmed release or buzzer or splash grenade.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 01:56
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Once again I must disagree here and feel that some of you are grasping at straw so as to say "nu-uh! you can't so that!" Firstly, nano vision is like looking through a microscope...you can't just "see" swarms with it. What you *could* do is use a nanodetector and have it shunted as a visual modeling program tied into your VR...but that is a nanodetector and not nanovision. Second, again I feel like y'all aren"t getting how small a swarm really is...a whole swarm is manufactured in a hive the size of a shotgun shell. Likely a compressed swarm is about the size of a bullet...or even much much smaller. Third one of the ways it explicitly says you can program a nanoswarm is to "coat a target." Fourth, splash rounds are designed to coat a target spreading them around. Fifth, they would not be damaged because they are so small the impact would be negligible. Consider shooting a splash round containing dust in it...the dust particles would not be really harmed from the splash round bursting...and nanoscale bots are FAR smaller than visible dust. I'm sure one of the physics minded people here could explain it better but part of the way impact damages things relates to their own mass when they hit something. Long story short. I think it is a perfectly viable, ingenious and diabolical way to use nanoswarms and anyone trying to nerf it is just just being closed minded...I'd probably just not play with a GM who tried to make heavy handed leaps of logic like I'm hearing here. One thing that would need to be considered though is legality....the Jovians are an extreme example but I imagine weapon scanners on most stations have nanodetectors or are otherwise equipped to scan for this technology, since it is so damn dangerous.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 02:17
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
If you are careful, nanodetectors won't find anything on you. You might have to clean yourself very carefully, but a properly stored and sealed off nanoswarm can't be directly detected except perhaps as a dark spot on an x-ray scanner or the like (i.e., no one could immediately know that spot was a swarm without removing it and running it through a nanodetector). Even better, just keep the hive on you, destroy the swarm. Or keep a single protean swarm mixed into the bottom of a can of totally legal repair spray. That's totally impossible to detect without destroying the can. That swarm can be booted into whatever you want.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 03:37
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Where can I find info on these protean swarms? That would probably be the better blueprint to buy eh?
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Tue, 2012-07-17 09:35
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
TadanoriOyama wrote:
Just finished reviewing the nanoswarm section and TekHed is right; taggant nanobots can be a swarm. We should note that they (they meaning all swarms) are not "invisible". That is a very specific term in Eclipse Phase. Nanoswarms are nano-scale and clearly visible to anyone with nano-scale vision enhancements.
Actually, I don't disagree that a swarm can be delivered through splash rounds, my point of disagreement is a single splash round holds one nanoswarm.
Geonis wrote:
.. I doubt one splash round can house the equal amount to one swarm. ...
TekHed wrote:
... then it stands to reason that an individual swarm can be condensed into a splash round ...
If you fire enough bullets and hit, you will get a swarm. I personally have no issue with him delivering swarms through splash bullets, I have an issue with him delivering one swarms per bullet. I would use a all ten bullet hold a whole swarm, this allows a buzzer and kinetic rounds to do the similar but different jobs, the buzzer released two swarms reliably at short range and the kinetic weapon is longer ranged but only one swarm. Then running off the MoS of the roll for the amount of bullets hitting, lets say 1 bullet for each 3 MoS, a MoS of 30+ would land them all on a full auto. The rational is the full auto adds +30 to hit, so by having a MoS of 30 of greater, you hit without missing with the shot, assuming he is using the full auto to give the hit bonus of course since slash does no damage. With a critical counting as a wholly delivered the swarm as well. Without balance, all the NPCs would just be running around with kinetic bullets filled with their own swarms to counter hit swarms when they become wise to his ways, it would kick off an arms race between the players and GM potentially.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 12:22
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
TekHed wrote:
Once again I must disagree here and feel that some of you are grasping at straw so as to say "nu-uh! you can't so that!"
Ad hominem.
Quote:
Firstly, nano vision is like looking through a microscope...you can't just "see" swarms with it. What you *could* do is use a nanodetector and have it shunted as a visual modeling program tied into your VR...but that is a nanodetector and not nanovision.
Correct, the nanoscopic vision enhancement does say it zooms like a mircoscope. It states that using it one can view a single nanobot. I didn't want to imply it was possible to walk around with vision zoomed to nano-scale (it says right in the description the synthmorph has to be fairly stable to use it); I wanted to point out that while a nanobot is not visible to the naked eye it is possible to see the nanobots with the proper equipment.
Quote:
Second, again I feel like y'all aren"t getting how small a swarm really is...a whole swarm is manufactured in a hive the size of a shotgun shell. Likely a compressed swarm is about the size of a bullet...or even much much smaller.
I agree that it is possible to fit the entire swarm into the [i]volume[/i] of a bullet. See my argument above regarding kinetic force as to why it is not advisable to simply fire the swarm [i]as[/i] a bullet.
Quote:
Third one of the ways it explicitly says you can program a nanoswarm is to "coat a target."
Agreed.
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Fourth, splash rounds are designed to coat a target spreading them around.
I have never read that before. The text does not say that, it says that a splash round is specifically designed to splash it's payload onto the exterior of a target.
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Fifth, they would not be damaged because they are so small the impact would be negligible. Consider shooting a splash round containing dust in it...the dust particles would not be really harmed from the splash round bursting...and nanoscale bots are FAR smaller than visible dust. I'm sure one of the physics minded people here could explain it better but part of the way impact damages things relates to their own mass when they hit something.
I agree that force affects tiny objects very differencely. I counter that dust particles aren't complex machines and think nanobots would suffer some damage as a result of being shot. I will cede the issue if presented with evidence nanobots would be unharmed by SMG ballistic level impacts.
Quote:
Long story short. I think it is a perfectly viable, ingenious and diabolical way to use nanoswarms and anyone trying to nerf it is just just being closed minded...I'd probably just not play with a GM who tried to make heavy handed leaps of logic like I'm hearing here.
Begging the question and ad hominem. To summarize: I agree that a nanoswarm can compact itself down far enough to fit inside of the volume of a bullet and that the technology exists to fire such bullet. I do not yet think that 1) it is possible to place an entire swarm in the bullet's volume [i]and[/i] have the swarm remain undamage by the impact of striking a target or 2) that if a transport medium is used to allow the nanobots to safely reach the target it will retain enough nanobots (in a single bullet) to constitute a full swarm.
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One thing that would need to be considered though is legality....the Jovians are an extreme example but I imagine weapon scanners on most stations have nanodetectors or are otherwise equipped to scan for this technology, since it is so damn dangerous.
My impression is that most habitats do scans of some sort or another on anyone entering them physically, some more so than others. I believe most would stop someone if they detected fifty or sixthy active nanoswarms on their person, at least to ask them why they had them.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 12:41
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
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Actually, I don't disagree that a swarm can be delivered through splash rounds, my point of disagreement is a single splash round holds one nanoswarm. If you fire enough bullets and hit, you will get a swarm. I personally have no issue with him delivering swarms through splash bullets, I have an issue with him delivering one swarms per bullet. I would use a all ten bullet hold a whole swarm, this allows a buzzer and kinetic rounds to do the similar but different jobs, the buzzer released two swarms reliably at short range and the kinetic weapon is longer ranged but only one swarm.
Well Geonis, I must say I am glad you are not my GM< or at least that I'm not trying to bring this type of chacter into your game where I would get hit with a nerf bat. I'd just be pissed and play a different character. This is so stupid I don't know where to begin. So I expend 10 ammo to do...3 points of damage. YAY [sarcasm]. This is awful and terrible and retarded thinking. The volume of 10 bullets is going to be more than a single shotgun shell. Furthermore a seeker round is not that much bigger than a bullet and it can hold a whole swarm? You are just being arbitrary and not groking the concept of how small a swarm can be. And here is the reason why...
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Without balance, all the NPCs would just be running around with kinetic bullets filled with their own swarms to counter hit swarms when they become wise to his ways, it would kick off an arms race between the players and GM potentially.
Ah. I see now. You are one one of those gamers who still holds this idea of "balance." There is no balance. ESPECIALLY not in this game. My impression of this game is that balance is out of the window. The enemies in this game are so powerful that it's a miracle we get to backup and save our characters. Exsurgents, TITAN bots and swarms, crazy weird lovecraftian alien shit that will make you go mad... There is already an arms race going on, in any game where technology is an aspect/issue/theme. This is no different. I am annoyed at you for thinking that my idea should be nerfed down to the level of the god-awful buzzer, rather than trying to bring the buzzer up to a standard that would make me ever choose to use it. Let me put it another way. I could just as easily have sunk my 30,000 into plasma rifle blueprints...I'd be doing on average 72 damage per round, not including the armor piercing nature AND have the ability to potentially set things on fire. Oh, and by the way that character is an ambidextrous Reaper that carries 2 plasma rifles and 2 rail-machine guns or shredders. I would say against this kind of thing my build is pretty balanced. Consider that a station's defenses are going to have automated turrets and such, and probably lots of bots. Consider that killing someone's morph in this game isn't really death for them...and not only are you going to get slapped with a fine+their resleeving costs, but you have likely made an enemy for life in the person you hosed. Also, like I said nanoweapons are likely highly restricted and illegal...people are WAY paranoid about this kind of tech (and with good reason as I have shown!) after the fall. Nanotech is right up their next to synthmorphs when it comes to conservatives. If anyone else has anything to add to the discussion I'm open to it, but for Geonis and I, let's just agree to disagree on our interpretation of the (admittedly not very well specified) rules and what is balanced. We obviously have different tastes and styles in what we like in our games. You favor limits and "balance." I'm clear such things don't really exist...not in the real world, and not in any game attempting to in someway be plausible in a real world. Some tech is way better than others. Some people have better access to it. Life isn't fair. Life isn't balanced. An arms race is part of any decent game where players get creative in marshaling their resources...and it is my humble belief that the GM should let them. After all...the GM has ALL the power in the end anyways. Case in point:
Madwand wrote:
And yes, swarms may be one of the deadliest weapons in the book, along with nuclear and antimatter missiles. As my Sentinel group delved into tougher and tougher battles -- we're talking planetary scale annihilation events against rogue Firewall agents here -- we found ourselves relying increasingly on infosec hacking, and swarms and swarms of swarms, along with delivery mechanisms for those swarms (drones and missiles). As defense, one or more vehicles packed with hundreds of vertical-launch cells containing plasmaburst weapons. A camera photographing events inside our command vehicle would have seen nothing more than a few people sitting absolutely still in chairs for hours, thinking very hard. It was quite exciting. Warfare is a different creature in the future of Eclipse Phase.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 12:50
The Enemy The Enemy's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Let me suggest a way around the problem: If you cannot stuff a whole swarm into a SMG bullet, then have said swarm be completely intact at the end of it, why not just go with a bigger bullet? Like say, using a shotgun slug. Or a semiautomatic rifle, heavy pistol, the like. Or heck, a Seeker. If you Must Load Swarms into SMG Bullets, then say that the splash rounds used for swarms are loaded for lower velocity- a longer bullet, with less powder behind it, to provide more room for cusion, and a lesser impact at the end of it. Sure, you'd impact the range a bit, but you'd have the swarm per bullet that you so dearly cling to.
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Insanity is the Spice of Life. Gun-totin Texan.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 12:52
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
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To summarize: I agree that a nanoswarm can compact itself down far enough to fit inside of the volume of a bullet and that the technology exists to fire such bullet. I do not yet think that 1) it is possible to place an entire swarm in the bullet's volume and have the swarm remain undamage by the impact of striking a target or 2) that if a transport medium is used to allow the nanobots to safely reach the target it will retain enough nanobots (in a single bullet) to constitute a full swarm.
Well you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. As a counter argument, apparently y'all have no issue with me quoting a part of the rules that say a seeker can also deliver a swarm...that hits with the same or greater force of an SMG -and- it explodes on impact. So by your logic then it would damage the swarm. Sorry but I don't by it. Something that incredibly small would not really be harmed by the impact. That is like saying the molecules of a toxin or virus would be damaged by the same impact. Consider also that apslash round is likely designed to deliver it's payload without damaging it. Sure, it's ad hominem, but it is my opinion that you are being incredibly small/closed minded and trying to place some limit on a cool exploit I found in the rules. I'd not choose to play with you, and would find a GM/players more like Madwand, who realize that balance was out the window the minute the game said "post-apocalyptic transhuman horro." This is a game about transcending limits, not nerfing good player ideas that perfectly well fit within the rules and the tech of the setting for some antiquated notion of "balance." Furthermore, even if a GM did rule that current splash rounds and nanoswarms wouldn't work this way...what would keep me from researching how to make it work the way I want in game? Oh...GM fiat? Fine Mr. GM, I'm quitting your game. Consider that a TITAN swarm in effect is a massive version of a swarm that can do basically every function...a TITAN swarm can act as disassemblers, engineers, fixers, scouts...all of it, in one swarm. You can bet your ass that my nanoswarm researcher is going to have finding a way to duplicate that kind of tech somehow and build a better nanoswarm in game. Would that make him a wanted criminal? Of course...there is a reason I decided to take "on the run."
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Tue, 2012-07-17 12:55
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
The Enemy wrote:
Let me suggest a way around the problem: If you cannot stuff a whole swarm into a SMG bullet, then have said swarm be completely intact at the end of it, why not just go with a bigger bullet? Like say, using a shotgun slug. Or a semiautomatic rifle, heavy pistol, the like. Or heck, a Seeker. If you Must Load Swarms into SMG Bullets, then say that the splash rounds used for swarms are loaded for lower velocity- a longer bullet, with less powder behind it, to provide more room for cusion, and a lesser impact at the end of it. Sure, you'd impact the range a bit, but you'd have the swarm per bullet that you so dearly cling to.
See...someone who understands that technology will find a way. :) No limits! This would be a fine way to justify a workaround in the case of having a hardass nerfbat GM like Geonis. Of course if he wanted to nerfbat things for "balance" he probably still wouldn't go for it. Some people just don't see eye to eye.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 13:03
The Enemy The Enemy's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
Though, now I can't get out of my head, the idea of a nanoswarm-delivering shotgun. Mostly since shotguns can also shoot buckshot, ropes, bolos, fire, birdshot, Explosives, slugs, and even tasers. It is the one-size fits all knife, even now. And yes, I only listed projectiles that are currently in use, not what is in the rulebook. Not to mention, some shotguns are fully automatic. Everyone has to make comprimises, if they expect to play with a Munchkin concept. Sometimes those comprimises work better than the origional concept, so I don't resist them, I embrace them. It helps everyone concerned, rather than just the irritable player. After all, if you don't comprimise, the DM is free to kill off the character/take away the problem item in question at any point and time. If you were using it as a DMPC, you'd have the power to go "It works because I say it does" instead of having to fit it to anything else. My two cents, take it as you will.
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Insanity is the Spice of Life. Gun-totin Texan.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 13:27
TekHed TekHed's picture
Re: Guardian Nanoswarms
well the point was to get the damage comparable to the other powerful options available. A shotgun round is bigger than a seeker rocket. The problem with shotguns and seekers is that they are SA rather than BF or FA. The only way to make my idea a worthy replacement for railguns or plasma rifles is to use a weapon that can deliver them in FA. 3-6 damage/action phase just won't cut it for me.
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