Houseruling combat? | Eclipse Phase

Fri, 2012-07-06 09:44

#2

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

While combat is indeed deadly, I'm not sure this particular scenario is representative or fair. :) But that's not really the point, I guess. In answer to the later question: I don't think EP is a combat game in the first place.

Fri, 2012-07-06 09:48

#3

Jaberwo

Re: Houseruling combat?

Well, it basically just comes down to luck when two opponets bump into each other like this. I have to admit, that I didn't have that much combat in my games so far, but I only encountered a situation like this once, when I just jumped around the corner knowing they saw me coming. And although I killed two guys before they could shoot back, I wouldn't go in there the same way now, because what you point out in your example is absolutely right. Such a sudden and random confrontation, where nobody can say who will get out alive, is nothing anyone in the right mind wants to have. But there are many ways to detect enemies before they can engage you, from x-rays to quantum radar, there is the possibility to make yourself invisible and ambush your target, hack them silly or just bypass the threat entirely. You can do so much more in EP than just shoot people in the face at point blank range. The real part of a fight starts (and often ends) long before the bullets fly. Of course you can take the usual RPG approach and honor the roots of these games in the tabletop genre. My first thoughts would be to steal from other games like shadowrun. But for me one of the coolest parts of EP is the fact that the GM has not to worry about killing the players in any way, because you can just resleeve. That way the setting is so much more scary, brutal and fun. EDIT: One more thought on your example: You can always go first with moxie as a PC, but afaik NPCs don't get moxie.

Fri, 2012-07-06 09:50

#4

Xagroth

Re: Houseruling combat?

Eclipse Phase is not Dungeons & Dragons. Let me elaborate: In D&D combat is "eroding": lots of small hits, compared to the amount of life points a toon has. Unless you reach lv 15+, when casters start having really good "save or die" spells, and 21+ for the melee, where they can go for "save Fort or die" on each melee swing (of which they can have up to 6 per round!). Let's not go where archers with that build are (save up to 14 Fort TS per round and die or suffer a ridiculously low amount of damage). Eclipse Phase uses a more realistic approach to combat, because unlike other games, dead doesn't even mean a change in the game: resleeving is cheap for PCs, specially on Firewall missions... at least while they are using baseline morphs under 30k creds or so, specially fast-produced synthmorphs. So what is it wrong with your example? First, you can dodge bullets: it is fray test at 1/2 skills, but you can do it. Second, it is a "stupid" duel. Laboratory examples are really good for science, but not for a game where you have things like Tactical Networks, the Mesh, Forks, etc... So, the cool combat guy is so stupid to fire two shredders (spending one of his actions drawing them, by the way, because I doubt the other guy would be so stupid to close to a very armed and ready person) at a guy he doesn't know at 10 meters. How is he going to get away with it? Unless they are on a place where killing other people is legal and unpunished (the fine usually implies the costs of the resleeving if you are caught. And chances are you will in an habitat) he is not. So let's assume they are on Mars, in the wilderness. And the Splicer is a jury-rigged remotely-controlled body (or fork-ridden), which explodes in a blast of C-4 when is shredded to fine particles, and the cool guy is thrown away by the expansive wave, loses at least one of the shredders, and suffers some damage. Congratulations, cool guy, you now have three snipers with railguns covering you very obviously and another three guys with heavy armour and automatic weapons pointing at your head (they were camouflaged using some chamaleonic cloacks and a small ground antenna relying them data of the tacnet) with an action saved to shine you if you try to do anything but drop the shredder and surrender. So yeah, combat is very fast and lethal in Eclipse Phase, that's why players and GM's need to be smart enough to make sure the fight never happens, or if it does it is as much one-sided as possible. Of course, melee is really under the curve, so duels with melee weapons tend to be more like a D&D combat. Unless they use shocking weapons (non-lethal stuff like today's tasers), in which case chances are that the first hitting with that will let the other one in the floor spasming defenceless. Generic rule for science-fiction role playing games: be creative, invest on the intelligence stat, and have good technological skills. Specially computer-related ones.

Fri, 2012-07-06 10:26

#5

Prophet710 Prophet710's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

The game is Eclipse Phase. Eclipse Phase is deadly and scary. Eclipse Phase tries to grasp realism. In realism, duels with shotguns at close range usually mean high damage and fast trigger pulling. This means someone dies really fast. It happens. The game is Eclipse Phase.

—

"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."

Fri, 2012-07-06 11:57

#6

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

It's the same problem as with Shadowrun, and has the same solutions; fight smart. Use cover and stealth. As a GM, apply modifiers, especially environmental ones such as noise, smoke, AR spam, cover, hacker overwatch, etc. Higher modifiers mean fewer and less effective hits. If you want D&D's erosion mechanics, increase hitpoints by some factor, say multiply HP by 1.5 and add 10. Another solution is to make sure you keep extra morphs back at base for quick resleeving.

Fri, 2012-07-06 12:21

#7

ZeroSum

Re: Houseruling combat?

[quote=nezumi.hebereke]It's the same problem as with Shadowrun, and has the same solutions;quote] Amen to that. Last time I was in a Shadowrun game my character (Gabriel) was a Rigger/Sniper combo: stealth drones in aerial overwatch as spotters, optic camo and a suppressed smart rifle with thermal sights, bipod, AP rounds, the works. I was usualy taking out one target per round on average; aim, shoot, dead. Half the time they never even knew where I was shooting from (which is as it should be). Nothing quite like taking out the bad guy who's thrashing your friend in melee... from half a mile away. :) EDIT: Now that I think about it, he'd be pretty easy to recreate in EP, only better since his Muse would be helping to keep track of the drones. I should probably get to work on that.

—

"I figure that the more of you there are around me, the more chance there is of the inevitable hail of bullets hitting you instead of me.'" - Warren Ellis

Fri, 2012-07-06 12:30

#8

Tyrnis

Re: Houseruling combat?

Another way to think of it: you're better off watching classic Westerns as inspiration for Eclipse Phase combat than modern action movies. In a one on one showdown in the street at high noon -- the situation you're describing -- yes, the faster person usually won. Most of the time, though, it was one team against another team, and they were planting gunmen in windows/up on the rocks above the canyon, shooting at each other from behind cover, and otherwise using ambushes and other tactics that gave them as much of an advantage as possible over the other guy. Still, if you're hit once, there's a good chance you're dead or out of the fight. Personally, I wouldn't want to houserule it to make it less lethal, since it forces the players to be smart about when and if they enter combat in the first place, and since death is usually a minor setback. That said, it sounds like a simple solution for you would be to rule that all firearms are essentially single shot -- the listed damage is what they do for an attack (whether you call it a burst or a single round is irrelevant), and you only get to attack once with them per point of speed. You'd also need to heavily limit access to grenades, micro-missiles, and other explosives. Another option to consider is an initiative houserule that's been proposed in another thread, in which people with speed 2+ roll multiple initiative rolls instead of getting their extra actions tacked on at the end, thus making it more likely that they'll act earlier in the round (so person B becomes a little more likely to get the jump on person A in the first place, assuming all else being equal.) A third possibility, if you want more of an action movie feel, is to allow players to spend a point of moxie to negate a significant percentage of the damage from a single attack round -- the whole trope of looking to be badly injured/nearly killed by a powerful attack, but still being able to fight a while longer while just limping a bit, essentially.

Fri, 2012-07-06 12:35

#9

Tyrnis

Re: Houseruling combat?

ZeroSum wrote:
EDIT: Now that I think about it, he'd be pretty easy to recreate in EP, only better since his Muse would be helping to keep track of the drones. I should probably get to work on that.

Not just his muse. His companions who were getting thrashed in melee would ideally be feeding him all the relevant location info via the group's shared tactical network, and his drones would likely be equipped with good sensor packages as well for near-total battlefield awareness.

Fri, 2012-07-06 15:15

#10

Jaberwo

Re: Houseruling combat?

@OP I agree with most of the people in this thread, but I hope we didn't scare you away with all our 'realistic and deadly is cool' talk. Perhaps you can try it out a few times and see if this short, deadly and one-sided thing works for your group when you get used to it. Afterall, you don't have to worry about death like in other games (which is the perfectly good reason for the less deadly systems), so you can still switch to houserules after experimenting, without having to make new characters. If you come up with some ideas be sure to post them here or in the homebrew section. :)

Fri, 2012-07-06 16:48

#11

Xagroth

Re: Houseruling combat?

I forgot to mention one thing in my post: Combat is indeed short, but the actual battle can be really, really long (both in ingame time and real time), because 99% of it is moving around, getting information, placing people here and there, etc... The best analogy is, as usual, chess: the only thing that matters is the checkmate, everything before that is just manuvering to get that.

Fri, 2012-07-06 22:48

#12

OpsCon

Re: Houseruling combat?

Tyrnis wrote:
Another option to consider is an initiative houserule that's been proposed in another thread, in which people with speed 2+ roll multiple initiative rolls instead of getting their extra actions tacked on at the end, thus making it more likely that they'll act earlier in the round (so person B becomes a little more likely to get the jump on person A in the first place, assuming all else being equal.)

Yea! People like my ideas! I'm helping!

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KT Alex 'Iceshade' Andrade [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo2_400.jpg[/img]

Sat, 2012-07-07 06:29

#13

Lorsa

Re: Houseruling combat?

Jaberwo wrote:
@OP I agree with most of the people in this thread, but I hope we didn't scare you away with all our 'realistic and deadly is cool' talk. Perhaps you can try it out a few times and see if this short, deadly and one-sided thing works for your group when you get used to it. Afterall, you don't have to worry about death like in other games (which is the perfectly good reason for the less deadly systems), so you can still switch to houserules after experimenting, without having to make new characters. If you come up with some ideas be sure to post them here or in the homebrew section. :)

Well, you did scare me away a little :P . Jokes aside, I haven't had time to reply yet but I am reading your input and while I am not looking for D&D (because then I would play that), I also always wonder how people can claim 'realism' in a science FICTION game. Besides, realism isn't always fun, which is why I try to avoid the (supposedly) real world and play games in the first place. So, I am reading through what you people say and am thinking about it, but I am quite certain the creators of EP wouldn't have a whole chapter dedicated to action and combat and all those morphs and all that gear meant to be used for that if they never intended for their to be any in the first place. Also, I seem to remember a combat example in the book which had a guy fiering either a shard or a shredder at close range. So obviously they thought it could happen. :)

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Sat, 2012-07-07 09:21

#14

King Shere King Shere's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Lorsa wrote:
I also always wonder how people can claim 'realism' in a science FICTION game.

I think its because of people wants science fiction to be exactly what's on the tin. removing realism would affect the science part of sci-fi. Compare the concept of non-scientific sci-fi.

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Sat, 2012-07-07 12:31

#15

Geonis

Re: Houseruling combat?

Eclipse Phase is a Science fiction horror setting, not just science fiction, it is not meant to instill bravery but rather a sense of danger and dread. The chance of dying in a single round is a great method for conveying this. You just seem to enjoy a more heroic feel. At this point, it would appear to me, it is not just the combat that bothers you but perhaps the whole underlying non-heroic/horror themes. If this is the case, at least for combat, just multiply the Dur by some number you feel comfortable with and see how it plays out. This will cause people the ability to exchange fire and rarely suffer wounds, causing a more drawn out combat situation. Adding/adjusting the house rules as you go to fit the feeling you wish it to have.

Sat, 2012-07-07 12:49

#16

Tyrnis

Re: Houseruling combat?

Lorsa wrote:
Well, you did scare me away a little :P . Jokes aside, I haven't had time to reply yet but I am reading your input and while I am not looking for D&D (because then I would play that), I also always wonder how people can claim 'realism' in a science FICTION game. Besides, realism isn't always fun, which is why I try to avoid the (supposedly) real world and play games in the first place. So, I am reading through what you people say and am thinking about it, but I am quite certain the creators of EP wouldn't have a whole chapter dedicated to action and combat and all those morphs and all that gear meant to be used for that if they never intended for their to be any in the first place. Also, I seem to remember a combat example in the book which had a guy fiering either a shard or a shredder at close range. So obviously they thought it could happen. :)

Oh, there's no question that combat was intended to happen. Players tend to want combat to happen, if not every session, at least somewhat regularly. And I think most of us here are fans of shows like Doctor Who, that are pure fantasy with science fiction trappings, so it's not so much that we insist on realism as that the system we're playing in dictates our expectation of realism -- EP (mostly) sticks to being hard sci-fi, so our expectations tend to skew much more toward a greater degree of realism and an acceptance of very lethal combat. That said, there's no such thing as playing the game wrong if you and your group are having fun with it, and a more cinematic style of combat can be fun, too. While I expect you'll ultimately need to lower the damages of all the weapons in addition to the other suggestions I tossed out, if you find a good way to do it without radically overhauling the system, I hope you'll post it here so I can check it out.

Sat, 2012-07-07 14:50

#17

Decivre

Re: Houseruling combat?

Lorsa wrote:
Well, you did scare me away a little :P . Jokes aside, I haven't had time to reply yet but I am reading your input and while I am not looking for D&D (because then I would play that), I also always wonder how people can claim 'realism' in a science FICTION game. Besides, realism isn't always fun, which is why I try to avoid the (supposedly) real world and play games in the first place.

Even if you take the demand for realism out of it, the game is still designed to allow for espionage and stealth. Ambush tactics and stealth play don't lend itself well to a game where people can survive several hits without any real effect. Could you imagine trying to play Metal Gear Solid if it took you 3 minutes to break the neck of one guy? Furthermore, fiction only means that the story isn't factual. Just because the story isn't factual does not mean that the physics and concepts cannot be based on fact. The movie Titanic was fictional, yet based on a historical event. Why were there no TIE fighters? To that end, people read science fiction often because they like a setting that is doused in factual scientific concepts, at least as we understand them at the time. There's a reason I don't read fantasy.

Lorsa wrote:
So, I am reading through what you people say and am thinking about it, but I am quite certain the creators of EP wouldn't have a whole chapter dedicated to action and combat and all those morphs and all that gear meant to be used for that if they never intended for their to be any in the first place. Also, I seem to remember a combat example in the book which had a guy fiering either a shard or a shredder at close range. So obviously they thought it could happen. :)

I think a lot of that is a holdover from the fact that most RPGs are combat-oriented. Rob and Adam both just came from developing Shadowrun, and that book has a dense combat section. A lot of how they created this game is heavily inspired by their time there (you guys aren't fooling everyone, you just replaced the "D" with "ST" when you were coming up with psi strain…). That said, there are some safeguards to prevent issues as you mention. Moxie is a handy way to protect PCs and prevent them from dying as easily as NPCs can (which is why I recommend to most starting players that they max out Moxie first, and only reduce it if they absolutely need the extra points for making the character concept they are designing). Furthermore, preparation is everything. Any Shadowrun player will tell you that the key to a successful mission is to plan everything out, and prepare for every contingency. Leave as little as possible to chance (which is saying a lot for a game where everything is decided by dice rolls).

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Mon, 2012-07-09 10:21

#18

Lorsa

Re: Houseruling combat?

Alright, I think I have enough time to write a proper reply now. First, I want to thank people for replying. At some point I got the feeling that you thought I was attacking the game somehow and that was never my intent. We haven't really started playing a large campaign in EP yet and I've just started a small adventure to try it out a bit and learn about the pitfalls that you need to avoid. And while the scenario I posted might not happen just like that let me try and explain why it worried me somewhat. It is true that if you want to avoid all combat completely or simple use remotely or beta fork controlled drones then it matters little what a system does. It is true that I expect EP to be scary and with the expectation that if you are stupid you'll die and loose days/weeks of your life. I also definitely know that it's not D&D. That was never the point. Still, it worries me somewhat that it is so easy to shred a PC to pieces if you are not careful. I fully expect explosives to kill you if they are large enough and close enough. If you get hit by a sniper shot in the face you should die (that was one thing that concerned me in nWoD, shooting someone in the head with a sniper rifle was usually worse and the heart even worse unless you used some houserule). Micromissiles are expensive stuff and understandable seriously deadly. There's a lot of stuff that should kill you outright. However, while I do enjoy to have my players experience an interesting story and many GMs are masters of intrigue that never ends, a small amount of combat will always be part of my games. Sometimes as the end result of a long term project and sometimes small "random" encounters meant for the players to feel cool and awesome. This doesn't happen very often though and usually only at the start before it is obvious to anyone regardless of how low IQ or how high they are that the PCs are people you simply shouldn't pick a fight with. What worried me is that this wasn't possible to do in EP because even some half-assed dude could kill a badass PC with a fury morph simple due to winning initiative. It is my experience that players who die simple because they lost the initiative are rarely happy players, no matter the availiability of re-sleeving. What struck me as odd is that almost all the weapons can be fired in SA mode which allows for two shots in one complex action. What would intrinsically change if it was simply one attack? Are the SS weapons so much more powerful that the SA ones would be "useless" and if so could there be something imposed on SS weapons to offset this? Also, speaking of realism, is dual weilding handguns with very little negative modifiers realistic? I don't seem to recall any law enforcement or military that uses this or for that matter anyone at all. It is undoubtedly cool and maybe transhumanity is so much better that this is now the standard tactic but is it really needed in the context of the game? I am definitely going to try out the rules as is and see how it works. But thinking through stuff this brought up a worrying alarm in me. I guess I will have to keep my silk gloves on and make sure I don't place the players in a situation that is extremely deadly without a good reason (if they do it themselves it's another matter). Perhaps I will try to the extra initiative die houserule to let those with high speed be cool (which they should rightfully be). I have high hopes for EP, it seems like a really interesting setting with many layers and many possible adventures and ways to play it. I don't want to go into a long discussion about realism and fiction and whatnot, but I want to say that for me fun goes before realism any day. There are plenty of computer games and plenty of other games that are very realistic but are not fun for me for one reason or another. Also, a roleplaying game can never capture reality "for real" and trying too hard often, again, makes it unfun (in my opinion). I have reality readily availible 24/7, I want to escape it for something more enjoyable. However, it is true that sometimes it is fun, intriguing or desireable to have systems that are deadly but to me the point should always be to have a system that is fun and not realistic. I appreciate that others might feel different.

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Mon, 2012-07-09 11:29

#19

OpsCon

Re: Houseruling combat?

As we discussed it, and you want to try it, I've copied over the full text of the INIT houserule I proposed on the other mentioned thread (so you don't have to look for it);

OpsCon wrote:
Similar idea I've seen done in a lot of Turn/Phases mechanics that builds on this is you roll one init die per SPD, and each INIT die represents the init count that an action happens on. Similar house rules have been used in Shadowrun as well. So, for example, a Fury morph with SPD 2 would roll 1d10 + INIT and 1d10 + INIT, recording both numbers. During the turn, the phases are thrown out, and you simply get to take a Complex Action on each Init Count that matches numbers you rolled. So, if that Fury rolled an 11 and a 14, they would get to act on count 14, and again on count 11. You simply divide movement for that character up by number of available complex actions. This serves a few purposes-- 1. High SPD characters, rolling more than one init, will more likely have at least one that goes before most of their low SPD opponents. 2. Rather than being in the first phase, and then getting wailed on in later phases, SPD 1 characters are more likely to act in 'about the middle' of the turn. 3. Everyone goes on their init counts. When all init counts have passed, you roll init and start over. You don't have to remember to pass through the 4 phases and don't risk missing or doubling up on one in a long fight. 4. If using the option to roll and keep init once, this really speeds up the flow of combat and makes it easy to remember who goes when. {Edit} 5. Just considered this, a person with a SPD 2+ also has the option of delaying their highest init action to react to combat conditions ("I'll hold a shot ready on that corner in case the enemy tries to rush our hacker") and using their lower init actions for what they want to do. My two cents. This is what I've suggested to the GM for our upcoming game, who is admittedly a little intimidated by the combat rules, and is relying on my experience to help him make sense of it.

Also, a fairly common houserule I've seen on other boards for to make melee combat a bit more viable (read: cinematic) is to not half Fray vs ranged combat. However, I'd be careful with that one because with cover, it will go from 'hard to hit' with ranged to 'are you Annie Oakley? If not, toss off!' and would end up making most EVERYTHING melee. I'd suggest that as a GM, you be generous with the cover (for both sides) to make the combats interesting and last longer. With 1/2 Fray, but Lots of Cover®, it's really 1/2 Fray + 30 to avoid being shot. In many cases, that will be higher than base Fray. Think of Eclipse Phase combat like in Mass Effect on higher difficulties. "Cover is mother. Cover is father. It is by cover that I destroy my enemies. It is by cover that I survive to bang my hot alien girlfriend back at the ship. All cover, amen." Also remember to consider range modifiers (p 203). Shredders and shard pistols are rough, but short range. A SMG will get 2 shots (or bursts) at medium range before the shredder guy is in extreme. Visibility effects (did they hit any steam pipes? Use any smoke grenades to cover movement?), in short, remember the whole chart on page 193, and consider other modifiers on case by case basis. But it is still physically consistent, and with guns even better than today's, yeah, you don't want to be shot.

Lorsa wrote:
What struck me as odd is that almost all the weapons can be fired in SA mode which allows for two shots in one complex action. What would intrinsically change if it was simply one attack? Are the SS weapons so much more powerful that the SA ones would be "useless" and if so could there be something imposed on SS weapons to offset this?

That is the same in Shadowrun, and I personally like it. Why? Most every other game, there is no difference between using a revolver/pump shotgun/bolt action rifle (SS) over an semi-auto pistol (SA) other than ammo. In most of them, you have to take a feat or merit to actually double tap with a handgun [i]that is designed to double tap![/i] In Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase, that is built into the rules. It's awesome! As for making sure the game is fun, you might like many consider 'fun = cinematic'. That's still cool. Moxie is the default tool by which they make the game cinematic. Encourage your players to take more, or ensure situations to restore it more often. Only let REALLY important NPCs have it so the PCs feel cooler. However, once your players get used to thinking their way though combat, they will have more fun. Why? Because they will win by being SMARTER than the other guys. Their planning will allow them to win in a few turns, and with minimal ammo and effort expended. That's when they will start to love it. And if they have a bad day (roll), there is always resleeving. As the GM, you decide when Firewall can't get the cortical stack back. If you want them to get it back most of the time, you can. No memories lost, no Rez points lost, just the roll for mental squick from remembering your own death. If it was a really good plan and they just got unlucky, who's to say you can't toss them a 5 or 10 CP better morph?

—

KT Alex 'Iceshade' Andrade [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo2_400.jpg[/img]

Mon, 2012-07-09 11:37

#20

Prophet710 Prophet710's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Lorsa, I understand that you want to have a highly cinematic feel to any game that you play. That is part of being a "hero". However, I think you need to take a look at your perception of Eclipse Phase in general. It is meant to be more of an exploration/horror/though provoking game than it is a guns blazing scenario builder. The design of the system is to take the weakness of humanity and put it out for all to see. It does this very well with combat. I've seen combat situations IRL and its quick, dirty, and lethal for anyone involved. The combat system of EP is designed around this concept. Any kind of confrontation is scary (even more so if you're charging a massive troll with nothing but an iron warhammer) however, if you're meeting up with someone in a dark alley to duel with kinetically propelled shredders you probably deserve to lose your Fury in the first place. Linking back to the thought provoking, your players, unless absolutely retarded or full of hubris, shouldn't really be meeting in said dark alley. Recon drones, planning, cover, suppressing fire, flash bang grenades, smoke grenades, tacnet software, etc. All play a major part in keeping your morph breathing/functioning and had better be used to their full extent to stack the odds in their favor. Houseruling is a great way to get that more cinematic feel but, as we've discussed that is not the intent of the original design behind Eclipse Phase.

—

"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."

Mon, 2012-07-09 12:26

#21

Geonis

Re: Houseruling combat?

One thing to consider is that a person with a moxie point, all players at least have one, can go first by spending a moxie, making losing the initiative irrelevant if they choose. This is a PCs trump card, remind them of that. The model you used, the person with the shredders is akin to a marksman with spray weapons (page 174). He was in fact quite the 'badass' when it comes to using two shredders with ambidexterity and specialization in shredders. He also is running around with two moderate costing weapons, they cost four times as much as the lesser shard pistol, he spent the credits/rep for those. This person was not a thug or mook, but a heavily armed and skilled individual. I really suggest doing combat mock ups to get the feel of how it goes, become comfortable with how it flows. Lastly, being a hero is having courage and being noble, courage is the ability to face difficulty and danger without fear. If what you are doing isn't difficult or dangerous, your not being a hero. This is ultimately why I enjoy deadlier combat, you get the feeling of being a hero more often.

Mon, 2012-07-09 16:26

#22

Azathoth

Re: Houseruling combat?

I understand where the OP is coming from. I'll admit I'm the kind of player that often sees a game as a bunch of combat encounters with some down time in between. I know a lot of the strategery in EP comes way before you ever roll initiative, but I was used to games where much of the strategy played out IN the combat (and on a combat map ;)) and it took some getting used to. Our first combat the PCs fought 4 police baboons and took them out without a scratch! Then the next fight they fought just two baboons and a lucky crit resulted in 4 wounds on one character and a desperate struggle to survive. Combat can shift very suddenly. As someone else said, it's not the war of attrition you get in D&D.

Lorsa wrote:
What struck me as odd is that almost all the weapons can be fired in SA mode which allows for two shots in one complex action. What would intrinsically change if it was simply one attack?

Most weapons also fire in BF, and that can also be done twice per complex action. ;) I like the "double tap" rationale, but it struck me as very odd at first. I almost wonder if it is a vestigial remnant of SR where a single shot/burst is a simple action (you can do it twice per round). I have strongly considered modifying the firing modes for all weapons in my game. I think there have been a lot of great suggestions for how to patch combat for your group: -Multiply DUR by a factor -Encourage PCs to use MOX -I LOVE the initiative houserule for SPD>1 -I'd also consider removing the crits-are-armor-penetrating rule, and give crits a different effect. -Don't forget synths are typically more durable and have higher armor, also. -If all else fails, look at other games for inspiration Do give it another chance, though. I went in to EP looking forward to the combat. Our group was surprised at how little we see actual bloodshed, and we've been even more surprised to find that we're having just as much (if not MORE) fun without it.

Tue, 2012-07-10 00:17

#23

Janusfaced Janusfaced's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Lorsa wrote:
What struck me as odd is that almost all the weapons can be fired in SA mode which allows for two shots in one complex action. What would intrinsically change if it was simply one attack? Are the SS weapons so much more powerful that the SA ones would be "useless" and if so could there be something imposed on SS weapons to offset this? Also, speaking of realism, is dual weilding handguns with very little negative modifiers realistic? I don't seem to recall any law enforcement or military that uses this or for that matter anyone at all. It is undoubtedly cool and maybe transhumanity is so much better that this is now the standard tactic but is it really needed in the context of the game?

In my opinion, Extra Ranged Weapons rule is the problem. You can wield 6 weapons with no penalty, with octomorph and 5 Level Ambidextrous trait (50 CP). If your PCs and important villains are such 6-guns-wielders, I won't be surprised your mooks will be 2-guns. How about a houserule on Extra Ranged Weapons? Treat them like extra melee weapons (p. 206). So +1d10 damage per extra weapon (max +3d10). But there is off-hand penalty, offset by the Ambidextrous trait as usual. With this houserule, a person with many limb, many guns and high level Ambidextrous can fire all weapons as one attack with +3d10 damage. Still quite deadly, but less balance-broken.

—

Your average, everyday, normal, plain and dull transhuman Janusfaced's outpost(writtern in Japanese) http://janusfacedsoutpost.blog.fc2.com/

Tue, 2012-07-10 02:38

#24

EccentricOwl EccentricOwl's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Personally I'm finding my Arachnoid player claiming he can use 6 sword for 2 attacks with an extra 3d10 to be pretty ridiculous (and slightly annoying) when it comes to combat, but that's okay. I think I'm liking the idea mentioned earlier; if you want longer combats, add more durability. If you want more tactical combat, make it more tactical, with all sorts of modifiers applied for different situations. Reward the planning. Or, honestly - and this is going to sound downright anathematic - maybe switch to a different system? There are three separate attempts at making Eclipse Phase work in the Diaspora RPG. Diaspora has a robust roleplaying-oriented combat system that rewards tactical thinking and roleplaying alike. I think that might be what you're looking for, believe it or not.

Tue, 2012-07-10 08:57

#25

Gee4orce

Re: Houseruling combat?

Shredders are overpowered anyway (high damage, autofire, spray and armour penetrating). Duel wielding shredders against an opponent at spitting range - well, you'd need to call forensics to identify the body. The 'solution' to this 'problem' is for someone to engage Mr. Dual Shredders with a sniper rifle at extreme range*. Let's see how potent those shredders are now. Also, make shredders completely illegal on most habitats - they are like sawn off shotguns, and then some - in most civilised countries in 2012 ownership of such a weapon is a serious criminal offence. * watch The Hurt Locker for a great example of an extended sniper firefight

Tue, 2012-07-10 08:58

#26

Gee4orce

Re: Houseruling combat?

(dup)

Fri, 2012-07-13 10:23

#27

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Gee4orce wrote:
Shredders are overpowered anyway (high damage, autofire, spray and armour penetrating). Duel wielding shredders against an opponent at spitting range - well, you'd need to call forensics to identify the body.

We went over this last year, and I still don't think they are OP. They are almost exactly as powerful as an appropriately costly kinetic weapon. A heavy pistol using AP rounds has a higher technical average damage at anything outside of 10m. Full auto is still less efficient than burst fire for most targets. Their high AP is countered entirely by the ammo types kinetic weapons get. It has two advantages. The extra 1d10 damage at <10 meters (which is admittedly very nice) and the extremely high ammo value. But both of these are countered by the numerous benefits that the other weapon types get. The kinetic weapons skill covers every range type, and can fill almost every role in a combat encounter. Beam weapons have their increased accuracy and non-lethal abilities to their advantage, and you also get access to the second highest damage weapon in the core rules. Seekers are just hilarious in general, they have the potential to do an ungodly amount of damage. Spray weapons you get the shredder and freezer, both weapons that are outclassed outside of extremely short range. Don't get me wrong, I would never argue that the shredder is underpowered. But it is very close to being in line with the rest of the core weapons. Outclassed by quite a few of them, in fact. Edit: Removed some dickishness

—

-

Tue, 2012-07-10 12:17

#28

OpsCon

Re: Houseruling combat?

Indeed. Spray weapons have their uses, but they also have their weaknesses. A shard pistol is a good option for a character who rarely gets in combat, only has about 30-40 in the skill, but want a weapon that is intimidating. A shredder can be a beast in close quarters, but as I pointed out past that range it is COMPLETELY outclassed by a SMG with the right ammo. Spray weapons main advantage is that they have a wide range of options, both lethal and non-lethal, and are a good way to deal with swarms. But also, this fear of dual/triple/quad+ weilding weapons... that is a LOT of CP/Creds, both in the traits needed (and most NPCs will not) and the body needed. And then the guns. And the ammo. Let a guy do that. For a LOT less credits and time, my hacker can have a half dozen armed Guardian Angels run via a Tactical Network, and take that guy out before he even SEES me. From six different angles where that whole, 'concentrate fire on single target' plan becomes useless. This game is about planning and tactics. Kicking in the door gets you resleeved. Painfully.

—

KT Alex 'Iceshade' Andrade [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo2_400.jpg[/img]

Fri, 2012-07-13 09:47

#29

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

I want to echo OpsCons's last post. EP is not a game for super-specialists. If you are putting down 120 CP for a single action (in this case, shooting things), that means you're going to be hurting somewhere, and that's going to get you killed.

Fri, 2012-07-13 17:27

#30

AlphaCentauri AlphaCentauri's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Not sure if that's within the subject of discussion, but it sorta relates to lethality in battles so I'll ask this question here, rather than create a separate topic. So I am creating a character, who has a Durability of 65, and therefore DR of 98, 146 if I go for extreme-pressure adaptation bioupgrade. However, it still has a Wound Threshold of 11, therefore, if I understood combat rules right, getting hit for 55 damage (half/third of his hit points) would impose -50 penalty to every action, pretty much ending his meaningful contribution to combat. Is that right? Or did I misunderstand something?

Fri, 2012-07-13 17:21

#31

Prophet710 Prophet710's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Edit: I read that wrong, never mind.

—

"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."

Fri, 2012-07-13 17:53

#32

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

AlphaCentauri wrote:
Not sure if that's within the subject of discussion, but it sorta relates to lethality in battles so I'll ask this question here, rather than create a separate topic. So I am creating a character, who has a Durability of 65, and therefore DR of 98, 146 if I go for extreme-pressure adaptation bioupgrade. However, it still has a Wound Threshold of 11, therefore, if I understood combat rules right, getting hit for 55 damage (half/third of his hit points) would impose -50 penalty to every action, pretty much ending his meaningful contribution to combat. Is that right? Or did I misunderstand something?

That is correct. Eclipse Phase has a built in 'death spiril'. You would also need to roll to resist being knocked down, knocked unconcious, and fairly sure you would be bleeding, cannot remember the rules for that off the top of my head.

—

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Fri, 2012-07-13 18:04

#33

AlphaCentauri AlphaCentauri's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

I think I'll housrule something like adding DUR/10 to Wound Threshold. Otherwise it seems kinda wrong to have a guy out of the battle when he has almost 100 HP left.

Fri, 2012-07-13 18:19

#34

Prophet710 Prophet710's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

High DUR or not, a shot to the chest/face or penetration of internal workings is going to knock you out of the fight. A good houserule though, it at least gives you a sense of more stability rather than limiting higher DUR morphs and characters to the same standard as lower DUR toons.

—

"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."

Fri, 2012-07-13 20:22

#35

Decivre

Re: Houseruling combat?

AlphaCentauri wrote:
Not sure if that's within the subject of discussion, but it sorta relates to lethality in battles so I'll ask this question here, rather than create a separate topic. So I am creating a character, who has a Durability of 65, and therefore DR of 98, 146 if I go for extreme-pressure adaptation bioupgrade. However, it still has a Wound Threshold of 11, therefore, if I understood combat rules right, getting hit for 55 damage (half/third of his hit points) would impose -50 penalty to every action, pretty much ending his meaningful contribution to combat. Is that right? Or did I misunderstand something?

Perhaps, but you are discounting bonuses and other aspects that could help neutralize those penalties. One of the combat characters at my table doesn't lose his ability to contribute to combat until he has at least 8 wounds, simply by merit of his traits and smart ammo.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Fri, 2012-07-13 22:50

#36

NewAgeOfPower NewAgeOfPower's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

Having played heavy combat characters, I can vouce for Decivre- if you are properly armored, you will probably run out of Health before reaching a point where you can't do anything. Build a character to have critical skills over 100 (when equipment bonuses are added in), able to ignore 3 wounds, and finally being able to drug yourself to maintain critical aptitudes afterwards... plus the fact many hits tend to shave off HP but not hit your wound threshold (once you have some armor, of course) .

—

As mind to body, so soul to spirit. As death to the mortal man, so failure to the immortal. Such is the price of all ambition.

Sun, 2012-07-15 00:53

#37

OpsCon

Re: Houseruling combat?

As a side note, we got to use the SPD houserule in the game Friday. We liked it, easy and intuitive. Combat went smoothly.

—

KT Alex 'Iceshade' Andrade [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo2_400.jpg[/img]

Sun, 2012-07-15 01:41

#38

EccentricOwl EccentricOwl's picture

Re: Houseruling combat?

For my group, players generally try avoiding getting -too- ridiculous when it comes to combat-upping mostly because of the complexity it involves as well as them trying to be nice to the GM. My fear is that the NPCs I throw at them will chew through them and start an arms race.

Sun, 2012-07-15 22:11

#39

OpsCon

Re: Houseruling combat?

EccentricOwl wrote:
For my group, players generally try avoiding getting -too- ridiculous when it comes to combat-upping mostly because of the complexity it involves as well as them trying to be nice to the GM. My fear is that the NPCs I throw at them will chew through them and start an arms race.

Well, make sure NPCs with Moxie are RARE, and that's not as big an issue. Also, consider all the combat modifiers I talked about above, and try not to let your 'thugs' attack skills be much more than 10 above the average of your PCs Fray skills. Just remember that every once in a while they DO need to be in danger, or it stops being fun.

—

KT Alex 'Iceshade' Andrade [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo2_400.jpg[/img]

Mon, 2012-07-16 01:21

#40

Tyrnis

Re: Houseruling combat?

The biggest thing is to design your opponents reasonably: the chart on page 174 is very useful for sanity-checking things on skills. A basic thug should have combat skills of about 40 (basic professional certification/college trained). Sugestion: Even if they're well armed, they're generally only going to be a threat to a combat-oriented PC if they've got numbers or surprise on their side. They're also usually not going to be very good at working together. 50 represents advanced training or quite a bit of professional experience, and 60 is expert level competence (PhD, marksman). Suggestion: At this level, you've generally got good teamwork going on, and probably tactical networks. Even if the PCs are _better_, these guys are going to be prepared, fight smart, and do their best to control the battlespace -- and that's the much bigger danger, overall. Don't hyper-optimize them, unless they're explicitly a major antagonist -- by and large, consider the NPCs in NPC file prime. They're a pretty good guideline, and a good starting point. If your group ends up having too easy a time with them, you can always buff them a little.