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Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.

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Robobobo Robobobo's picture
Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
I can't tell if I'm missing something in the rules, but my gut instinct is that AGIs, being digital entities, would automatically be multitasking math savants pretty much right out of the box. I can't find anything of that nature in the rules, however. All I found was in fact pointing in the opposite direction, that biomorphs are the only ones who can get a multitasking upgrade, as it requires a cortical stack. Say wha? I would've said that a digital lifeform would lend itself [b]more[/b] towards that sort of thing, not less. Am I just missing something obvious here?
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
Robobobo wrote:
I can't tell if I'm missing something in the rules, but my gut instinct is that AGIs, being digital entities, would automatically be multitasking math savants pretty much right out of the box. I can't find anything of that nature in the rules, however. All I found was in fact pointing in the opposite direction, that biomorphs are the only ones who can get a multitasking upgrade, as it requires a cortical stack. Say wha? I would've said that a digital lifeform would lend itself [b]more[/b] towards that sort of thing, not less. Am I just missing something obvious here?
It depends on how they are cortically mapped out. Just because a digital entity is produced through numbers does not necessarily stipulate that it can work numbers. Even today this is true; character-reading programs can't do math. Math programs can't read characters. What an AGI will be proficient at will be completely and solely based on the primary function that the AGI is intended to perform. If that AGI is little more than a glorified thinking calculator, then yeah… it's gonna get a math boost off the bat.
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Deadite Deadite's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
True AIs that went on to become Prometheans and TITANs would probably have these, but AGIs are modelled on human brain patterns and don't necessarily have any more than most transhumans. Remember that only 10 years after the Fall people are still quite wary of fully artificial intelligences, and AGIs are hobbled because of it.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
Robobobo wrote:
I can't tell if I'm missing something in the rules, but my gut instinct is that AGIs, being digital entities, would automatically be multitasking math savants pretty much right out of the box.
That sounds wrong. Being good at multitasking and math is an *architecture* property of a mind, not based on whether it is running on goo or electronics. An artificial neural network can totally fail at it despite running on a digital or parallel computer. Whether AGIs are naturally good at math and multitasking probably depends on the design. Some models might indeed have had it by default (including other interesting plug-and-play features), while others - perhaps based on cobbled together brain scans - would not.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
Deadite wrote:
True AIs that went on to become Prometheans and TITANs would probably have these, but AGIs are modelled on human brain patterns and don't necessarily have any more than most transhumans. Remember that only 10 years after the Fall people are still quite wary of fully artificial intelligences, and AGIs are hobbled because of it.
AGI are "true AI", for all that matters. In fact, AGI are just as much "I" as humans are... the very definition of what an AGI is. What separates them from Prometheans and TITANs isn't intelligence per se, but the ability to recursively improve themselves, and the fact that seed AI are built for vastly more powerful computation systems. If Prometheans set the standard for true artificial intelligence, then we are a vastly inferior gauge for natural intelligence.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Janusfaced Janusfaced's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
Robobobo wrote:
I can't tell if I'm missing something in the rules, but my gut instinct is that AGIs, being digital entities, would automatically be multitasking math savants pretty much right out of the box. I can't find anything of that nature in the rules, however. All I found was in fact pointing in the opposite direction, that biomorphs are the only ones who can get a multitasking upgrade, as it requires a cortical stack. Say wha? I would've said that a digital lifeform would lend itself [b]more[/b] towards that sort of thing, not less. Am I just missing something obvious here?
I am not sure whether you argue about AGIs (digital origin and could be any form) or infomorph (could be any origin and digital form). But I assume you argue about Infomorph. AGIs can resleeve into biomorphs. About multitasking, infomorphs have Speed Modifier: +2 (p. 145), so they act as fast as biomorphs with Multi-Tasking (+2 actions). About math ability... yes, Math Boost implant isn't available for infomorphs. But Math Wiz trait is available. And infomorphs cost 0 CP.
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Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
Page 306 of the core rulebook states what sort of bioware can be mimicked as cyberware and placed in a synthetic morph. This includes all mental augmentations such as math boost. So yes, a cyberbrain can have a math boost and multitasking upgrades. An infomorph has multitasking as default but an infomorph is not a computer, it is a human conciousness living inside a computer so they are not automatically calculators. They do however, have access to the mesh (unless somehow cut off) which does have enough processing power to calculate just about anything for you.
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Friend Computer Friend Computer's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
Arenamontanus wrote:
Robobobo wrote:
I can't tell if I'm missing something in the rules, but my gut instinct is that AGIs, being digital entities, would automatically be multitasking math savants pretty much right out of the box.
That sounds wrong. Being good at multitasking and math is an *architecture* property of a mind, not based on whether it is running on goo or electronics. An artificial neural network can totally fail at it despite running on a digital or parallel computer. Whether AGIs are naturally good at math and multitasking probably depends on the design. Some models might indeed have had it by default (including other interesting plug-and-play features), while others - perhaps based on cobbled together brain scans - would not.
This. My first thought was that the AGI may have the class library for numerical caluculations as part of its compiled code, depending on it's origin, but if the architecture doesn't support it, it isn't called. For instance a soup of code like this: #if defined(__GNUC__) || defined(__GNUG__) /* GNU's GCC */ #define LT_COMPILER_GNU 1 #if defined(__GNUC__) #define LT_COMPILER_GCC 1 #endif #if defined(__GNUG__) #define LT_COMPILER_GXX 1 #endif #if(__GNUC__ == 2) #define LT_COMPILER_GCC2 1 #elif(__GNUC__ == 3) #define LT_COMPILER_GCC3 1 #elif(__GNUC__ == 4) #define LT_COMPILER_GCC4 1 #else #error PLATFORM ERROR: Unsupported version of GCC #endif Where each of the #define SOMETHING_IN_CAPS symbols will be a list of what can run. If that doesn't include multitasking, your AGI won't have it.
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Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
[quote=Robobobo]I can't tell if I'm missing something in the rules, but my gut instinct is that AGIs, being digital entities, would automatically be multitasking math savants pretty much right out of the box. I can't find anything of that nature in the rules, however. All I found was in fact pointing in the opposite direction, that biomorphs are the only ones who can get a multitasking upgrade, as it requires a cortical stack. /quote] Ok, as far as I understand this, here are the things: First: ALL physical morphs have (by default, but it can be removed or disabled) a cortical stack, if the requirement for the Multitasking Implant is only the cortical stack, then a pod or a synthmorph can have it too. Second: what you can't have is more than one "action booster": you need to choose between the cheaper "mental only" version or the very expensive "mental and physical" version installed by default in Furies or Reapers... Third: you can have a fork of yourself living in your Mesh Inserts instead of a Muse, or have ectos in addition to the mesh inserts, or have a Ghost Rider module, and that fork will be an infomorph with 4 mental actions per turn (in addition to the ones you have). Please do notice that long-term forks might develop their own mind, and that only up-to-Beta level forks are legal almost anywhere (I tend to create my chars with a 60 as limit in most skills so Beta Forks will only lose some attribute points). Nothing prevents you from having an Alpha Fork, if you can avoid the authorities, though. And nothing prevents that fork from trying to "get on top" either... Fourth: There is a definite difference between "Multitasking" as a capability and "Multitasking" as an implant. Rule-wise, the difference is: one gives you extra mental actions per turn, and the other is not considered "as such": you can do multiple actions by incurring a penalty to your rolls, as I think it's stated on the combat chapter. Short version: you can do extra actions at a -20 per unit, and I think the penalty applied to all rolls, this putting the limit on 4 actions for a healthy character (-60 is the top of maluses you can suffer, and I'd rule that if you are at -30 because of wounds, being pinned down or whatever, you can't exploit it to get 1.5 actions "free of penalties", because those -20 would overlap with the already existing ones). So if you want to be able to drive and keep a deep conversation in a simulspace in the Mesh, you would be getting a -20 penalty to both actions. If the car has some helping stuff (say, a +20 from direct implants, navigation software and LAI support), then you would only have to suffer some "lag" in the simulspace conversation... Which requires no rolls most of the time anyway. So yeah, you can play the stunt The Major did in the first season of the GitS anime series wihtout effort :)
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Little iffy on AGIs in cyberbrains.
So, I'm confused just by the question. All egos are basically equal in EP, I thought. You can take any ego, born bio, born AGI, born uplift, whatever; and sleeve it into a biomorph, a pod/synth, or an infomorph, regardless. There are some minor Background differences, most notably the Computer/Social stuff for infolife, of course.