Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Breeding not cloning

16 posts / 0 new
Last post
Prophet710 Prophet710's picture
Breeding not cloning
Alright so I do have a quick question, mostly just opinions and conjectures. If Splicers were to breed, or any breed-able morph for that matter, would the off-spring be Splicer based morphs as well or are they giving birth to flats? I ask this because it wouldn't makes sense for a genetically clean set of parents to give birth to a flat with significant genetic defects, barring of course drastic outside influences such as heavy radiation, malnutrition, etc. Also, regarding implanted nano-swarms; this is more of a confirmation question. If medichines and such are made to attack and remove foreign objects capable of harming the current host, would there be a portion of the nanoswarms' software suite that would recognize and cultivate pregnancy? as opposed to eliminating it. Or both, like an injection capable abortion.
"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
I think they would give birth to flats or headless ones -not sleevable morphs . However the offspring could be subjected to a medical "improvement" where they are transformed into a cortical stack and sleevable morph. Sort of like SPOILER -what happens to citzens of Tiphares in the manga Battle angel Alita /Gunnm
Geonis Geonis's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Prophet710 wrote:
Alright so I do have a quick question, mostly just opinions and conjectures. If Splicers were to breed, or any breed-able morph for that matter, would the off-spring be Splicer based morphs as well or are they giving birth to flats?
They would give birth to biomorphs of the same type from what I have read.
Page 139 wrote:
Biomorphs are fully biological sleeves (usually equipped with implants), birthed naturally or in an exowomb, and grown to adulthood either naturally or at a slightly accelerated rate
I don't see a reason why two non-flats would produce a flat, I do imagine that it would be monitored however to ensure a healthy mind or prevent physical defects. Genetic defects appear only be applied to flats(Page 149). So that wouldn't be a major concern.
Prophet710 wrote:
Also, regarding implanted nano-swarms; this is more of a confirmation question. If medichines and such are made to attack and remove foreign objects capable of harming the current host, would there be a portion of the nanoswarms' software suite that would recognize and cultivate pregnancy? as opposed to eliminating it. Or both, like an injection capable abortion.
This part I think I can answer, nanotechnology are still very specialized at this point and still remain a relatively new technology, and has limitations (Page 326). I feel things like medichines deal with maintaining the biomorph and are not very adaptable. I could see them needing to be programmed to deal with individual morph variants. A reason why multiple implants are needed to handle different health needs such as nanophages, respirocytes among others. I also believe gene-manipulation might still be used during the course of pregnancy to get not only a health, non-defective morph, but a stable and mentally healthy mind. Which would be handled on a level beyond what nanotech can currently offer. Also why exowomb births would be popular, since they could be easily monitored the whole time during the developing cycle.
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Genetics are complex. Part of what makes a Splicer what they are are "gene fixes" and "tailored virii". Gene fixes probably don't carry down through the genetic line and I am positive that tailor virii wouldn't. Mesh inserts, the brain computer, and a cortial stack probably also don't transfer well. I seem to recall the entry for cortial stacks stating that only bioconservatives and the extremely young don't have them so it's probably part of growing up. The Exo-womb, which I'm convinced is a specalized form of a healing vat, probably places all the alterations required to make a flat into a splicer.
Prophet710 Prophet710's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Alright so, with all of this established. Let us say for example a large group of bicons managed to get ahold of, for theorys' sake, a batch of high end splicer morphs and an exoplanet no one wanted. The exoplanet is earth-like for the sake of argument and there was a large enough population to proliferate. With limited methods and extremely limited technology (no more than bronze age or iron age). How would the eventual population then end up, back to flats? Genetics are passed down from generation to generation, and if they are fixed, it may not be that such fixed genetics are passed to the next generation, but you're still given a nearly perfect individual with which to breed with.
"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."
TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Once you stop genefixing each new born you let nature take it's course. Mutation will resume without any means to counter act it aside from selective breeding. Effectively they would be flats after a single generation: no stack, no mesh access, no tailored virii. Basically you'd have a Hollywood caveman; a flat with good genetics.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
It's also feasible that they'd be worse than flats, due to unforeseen genetic pairings. If you have the artificial gene for violet eyes, and I have the artificial gene for low-light vision, when we breed, it's possible those genes combine to result in blindness. Or it's possible splicers can't breed with certain other splicers at all, because the genetic tinkering has effectively created two different species.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Do we really know enough about genetics to know if breeding gene spliced humans will breed correctly? My guess is, in EP, transhumanity has developed sufficient understanding with ecology and bio-design that this isn't likely to be a problem with newer morphs. There might be problems with the first generation of splicers. Being the first generation of morphs that were significantly different from baseline human strains, they may suffer problems with breeding that will not show up in day to day activities. I however, would not recommend you try breeding between morph species. Its difficult to guess as to what will happen when 2 different high end models try to mate. Likewise, I would worry about breeding any 2 morphs that 2 very different bioware augmentations (such special genes might mix weird). A different concern is that the hypercorps tend to copyright genes. They may include certain errors that will prevent 2 morphs from breeding safely, and they'll claim that the problems that arise is due to the field being a difficult subject. Thats the BS they try to sell to uplifts that try to breed. They'll recommend that you check in with them to ensure that nothing is wrong, and they'll offer a number of recommendations and special treatments (that will cost credits) to increase the odds that nothing goes wrong. God help you if you end up trying to breed models that were produced by different hypercorps. It'll probably be copyright nightmare. ---- Regarding Nanoswarms. The description for medichines says that it is possible to turn them off or otherwise alter how they act. In most cases, mesh inserts would be the easiest way to control them. Under normal circumstances, they'll actively remove alcohol from you system as you drink, but they can be told not to do so if you want to get drunk. Likewise, they'll also prevent you from getting dangerously drunk, unless you send them another override. I'm fairly sure that with the right overrides, most models of medichines will allow you to die, let you suffer damage in a specific region in your body, or let a specific parasite to live (which what a fetus of an unborn child may look like).
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
TadanoriOyama wrote:
Genetics are complex. Part of what makes a Splicer what they are are "gene fixes" and "tailored virii". Gene fixes probably don't carry down through the genetic line and I am positive that tailor virii wouldn't. Mesh inserts, the brain computer, and a cortial stack probably also don't transfer well.
Tailored virii don't need to stick around after they've done their task; once your genetic code has been properly altered throughout your body, they are fine to flush with no harmful effects. If those tailored virii also alter the DNA within your gonads, then your children have just as much a chance to acquire those traits as any natural traits. Cyberware and similar implants, though, probably don't transfer. Bioware might, depending on if it's written into your genes.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Anarhista Anarhista's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Since exo-wombs are much better option then natural birth (not to mention little thing called pain) almost all births will be done that way (letting nature decide genetics of the child would be considered irresponsible in such a society, so exo-womb is practically only option). On the other side, as you mentioned, if there is large risk of being cut away from rest of (trans)humanity by new colonists and not enough infrastructure for required technology splicer morphs could be remade to be entirely breed-able (nanoswarms programmed to leave the mother body and enter fetus to change it as desired/possible in this environment. I presume that large alteration can not be done this way). This could be done by Titan commonwealth and alike. If hypercorps send colonists in such environment: that is just acceptable risk.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.
Doc Solomon Doc Solomon's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
My take on it is that differing morphs cannot conceive a child together, the rulebook states that morphs are different species. Culturally, they are transhuman, but genetically, they are as different as a human is to a chimp is to a bonobo. Very closely related, by mere percentages, but wholly separate species. I doubt morphs are like dogs where two breeds make a mutt, or how horses & donkeys make a mule, strikes me as corporations would fix that to retain intellectual fidelity of their product. (Though I imagine it may be possible to 'jailbreak' your morph to allow this, perhaps) I also imagine that a good portion of a morph's cost is franchising fees, as the proud morphowner you're contractually allowed to make a happy future customer for hyper-corp brand morphs. That kid is likely to shop for similar morphs to her own as the old one wears out.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Doc Solomon wrote:
My take on it is that differing morphs cannot conceive a child together, the rulebook states that morphs are different species. Culturally, they are transhuman, but genetically, they are as different as a human is to a chimp is to a bonobo. Very closely related, by mere percentages, but wholly separate species. I doubt morphs are like dogs where two breeds make a mutt, or how horses & donkeys make a mule, strikes me as corporations would fix that to retain intellectual fidelity of their product. (Though I imagine it may be possible to 'jailbreak' your morph to allow this, perhaps)
This is how I feel about it: I generally assume that different morphs are completely incompatible with one another. You might occasionally find a couple matches that result in a mule-esque hybrid, but otherwise I think that chromosomal differences and other nuances between morphs simply make it impossible.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
There are good reasons to think that significantly genetically altered humans are not going to be genetically compatible. Splicers are likely no problems since they are essentially flats with a cleaned up genome. No disease-causing alleles, optimal versions of many genes and so on. But when you start redesigning more, you will want to organise the changes better. Especially if you introduce entire new gene systems. One simple solution is to put these genetic cassettes on extra chromosomes. See Greg Stock's book "Redesigning Humans: Our Inevitable Genetic Future" for more details about the how-to. This nicely keeps things in place and allows some upgrade control. But it also messes up genetic recombination: the chromosome number will be wrong in the offspring, and it will likely not do terribly well. It is entirely possible to design around this (Greg explains how this design could be made to produce splicer children with no extra chromosomes), but that assumes the makers of the body thinks it is a good idea for customers to make children this way. In fact, it seems more likely that they might make it an optional extra that they can charge for.
Extropian
Prophet710 Prophet710's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
So with that in mind then, breeding ability is just an addon? Like leather seats in a new automobile?
"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Prophet710 wrote:
So with that in mind then, breeding ability is just an addon? Like leather seats in a new automobile?
I think it's something that at least the most common morph types (Splicer, Exalt, Olympian, Menton) will be capable of baseline because the people holding the leash of the morph manufacturers are not quite ready to stake all of humanity's future on the Exowomb. Even if the majority of female morphs will never actually use their ability to get pregnant.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Breeding not cloning
Pyrite wrote:
I think it's something that at least the most common morph types (Splicer, Exalt, Olympian, Menton) will be capable of baseline because the people holding the leash of the morph manufacturers are not quite ready to stake all of humanity's future on the Exowomb. Even if the majority of female morphs will never actually use their ability to get pregnant.
A lot of open-source designs and models created by groups that aren't hypercorps might also come with breedability as a stock option. Remade [i]might[/i] be fertile, depending on whether the Ultimates see natural birth and child-rearing as a valid means of bringing more into the fold. Outer system models also probably come with fertility inherently built in. Plus, there might be an exowomb implant for synthmorphs, so that they too could try and experience bringing a child into the world. Especially for synthmorphs with synthetic masks. Great way for an AGI to try their hand at becoming a mother, or for a loner to create a family with their muse.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]