I realized that one of the questions I had in a prior thread was not addressed. ("The downlow on uplifts." --> http://www.eclipsephase.com/downlow-uplifts ) It actually wasn't partcularly related, but I think I would like to tackle what I can in a thread of its own. If this subject has been broached before, then certainly direct my attention to where it can be found.
Do "fresh" biomorphs contain a native consciousness prior to its possible use by some other ego? Are they essentially created in some form of vegetative state? I've watched and read some interesting things from Cristof Koch (such as here --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i9kE3Ne7as&feature=plcp ). As it is, in our current age, we certainly cannot give quantitative values to "how much" consciousness a mind/brain has. How little can it be before there is an adequate elimination of any moral dilemma in wiping a resident ego, native to that morph and sort of the original "owner" with rights to their "home?"
Is consciousness an emergent quality? Is it like electric current and power from "tamed" natural phenomena of electro-magnetic properties? Give consciousness a vessel, will it come from "somewhere" and fill it up? Extend the rim of this cup and one can fill more and more. Of course, I don't think there's any answer to this, but I assume Eclipse Phase considers consciousness a property of neurochemistry and is able to be suspended with techniques developed over a good course of the setting's history. I would assume that also means they have ways of detecting the presence of consciousness in a morph. Synthmorphs would likely be immune to this debacle, simply being read/write functions of digital systems. It is so hard to just willfully say that if you copy the mind of someone and then delete the source, that the copied mind will still "be" that person, with the same subjective experience of its consciousness prior to exchange. Is it death and rebirth? Entirely different person? Questions we can't answer right now, I'm wagering.
However, it still interests me to know just how the biomorph process goes, especially the brain. I could probably stand to know more about the ego-bridging process, too. Thanks!
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Mind over matter, matter under mind.
Fri, 2012-06-22 23:49
#1
bRA1N-b0X
Mind over matter, matter under mind.
Sat, 2012-06-23 01:43
#2
DivineWrath
Re: Mind over matter, matter under mind.
From what I understand, the ego bridge uses nanotechnology to re-arrange every brain cell and connection during an upload. The book compares the process to a 3D printer, except it uses the brain cells in the morph's brain. When the process is done, the brain is properly arranged, and the neurons are firing their signals properly.
As for the mind in the morph prior to its first uploading, its probably within their means to prevent any mind from developing... ever. We are talking about a people who can upload a mind of a dolphin or octopus into a human morph, which wouldn't be a trivial matter.
Sat, 2012-06-23 07:55
#3
nezumi.hebereke
Re: Mind over matter, matter under mind.
Great question!
My assumption would be most biomorphs are 'grown' so the brain is indeed a clean slate, like DivineWrath said. To do otherwise would be a violation of the basic tenants a lot of the cultures in EP operate under. HOWEVER, there's no guarantee that's the case with every individual morph (mistakes do happen), or with every company's policy. So I guess my answer would be 'generally no, except when the answer is yes'.
Another good question. It seems most EP cultures follow the 'current intelligence' model, rather than the 'future like ours' theory. I'd go as far as to say that, except in the Junta, abortion is pretty much accepted by everyone. Most clades also give few or no rights to beta forks. I would say that, given that an infant is effectively worse than a beta fork in every effective metric, that legally people would probably be in the clear for wiping away any 'detritus' that happens to develop in a growing biomorph. Individuals are likely to have their own moral positions on the issue, but since it's fixable, I don't imagine it's a huge political issue.
I would argue no. Consciousness is a form of information processing, and information processing is an evolutionary advantage. IMO, consciousness may emerge from sufficiently complex systems, but is not guaranteed to (and in fact, is quite unlikely to). Just like if you took a lump of undifferentiated biomass, it's not likely to develop feet without the processes and pressures appropriate to direct it there.
But I'm also just speculating from my arm chair.
Well there's a question. If you form and run a biomorph brain, will consciousness emerge? If you form and run a synthmorph brain, will consciousness emerge? Why one and not the other? I don't think you can focus on just what the instruction codeset is (unless your point is that brains form neural connections automatically, but modern computers don't, to which my response is, EP isn't using modern computers).
Frankly, consciousness emerging in synthmorphs may be MORE likely, because it's not tested for. A "blank" synthmorph is still going to be loading with exobytes of code for things like body functionality, supporting learning and feedback, data processing, etc. (so transferring an ego is just transferring personality and memories). IF you can't completely shut that system down (which seems reasonable), or IF the body is left running for a long period, especially with time acceleration, emergent consciousness resulting from some learning feedback loop sounds like a reasonable and exciting possibility. (Unfortunately for that consciousness, it would have even less claim to legal rights than the biomorph above).
You may want to dig through some of Arenamontanus 's old posts. He's a specialist in the field, and has done some very serious speculation on how this process may work.
Sat, 2012-06-23 11:59
#4
bRA1N-b0X
Re: Mind over matter, matter under mind.
Thank you both for the replies! Definitely food for thought, as it were. I just want to interject (not interupt) that it certainly seems the value of individual consciousness is really in crisis in Eclipse Phase. Humans haven't valued themselves (or at least other humans than themselves, heh) very much over the course of our history. Somehow, the consciousness remained inviolate. In Eclipse Phase consciousness is brought down to this level, or our objectification has been brought up to consciousness. In any case, I have to say it does bring great depth to themes and plots available to the game. I love the idea of "crimes against consciousness" and not just the "usual" against humanity kind. XP stealing, fork slavery, unlawful psychosurgery, brain hacks, etc. Gotta love it! (Now, I bow out for more productive conversation of pre-existent consciousness in morph production...)