Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I am not sure if this has been covered, if so I failed to find it. However, what is up with the lines on Pods? With nano healing vats and construction, you would think they would not have lines. Is it just artistic license?

I'd say it's cost-effectiveness. Pods are a shortcut method of creating biomorphs, reducing production time and price point. One of the consequences are the seam lines apparent in the designs. As for why they remain, do note that there is social discrimination against pods which has been referenced but not really touched on as much as the discrimination against AI and uplifts. As such, many habitats restrict their movements or even ban them outright. Those seam lines might be a mandatory element of their design, with unseamed pods being illegal.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I had not thought of the unseamed ones not being legal, but then Syth masks as not illegal in most places. And honestly if it was ever played in a healing vat, would that not fix the seams anyhow? They are biomorphs after all. And none are really cheap, all costing more then a case and about the same cost of a splicer. They are mostly biological and only have some cyberware , going by the core book. They are a bit faster to grow then splicers I would guess. On some stations I can see the stigma, but I really do not see why the visible seams, it looks like to me those would be removed as part of the last stages of production or as a byproduct of a trip to a healing vat.

Actually, they grow much quicker than splicers. A normal accelerated biomorph growth period is 1½ to 2 years. A pod generally gets produced in a mere 6 months. This is the primary purpose behind them... an intermediary between synthmorphs and biomorphs that bridges the fast manufacture rates of a digital body with the psychological comfort of a biological body. And it probably is true that healing vats can easily repair those seams, but that won't necessarily curb the issue. The most likely people to have a pod morph are going to be the lower class; and since the inner system does not have a complete reputation economy, the largest majority of people with pod morphs simply won't have the funds to modify their bodies in such a manner. In the outer system, you might see the opposite issue. Reputation economies and liberal access to tech means that people have the ability to eliminate those seams, but the stigma of having a pod is much less frowned upon. In fact, there might be those that own it, creating pods that have intrinsic designs and patterns created by the seams. Still, there are likely to be plenty of people that have those seams closed up after purchase, when the option is available.

Does it say anywhere in the material that Pods have lines? I've seen it in some of the artwork but I only remember the description of pods saying that they where compositely constructed, not that lines of their part joinnings were clearly visible. I've only really seen one, maybe two images of morphs I knew to be Pods, discounting the Nova Crab we didn't seem to have major lines, aside from gaps in its carapace. I understand the placement, basically as something that the manufacturer doesn't care enough to cover. It seems like that would be an interesting thing to have as an after market modification, a masking modification for pods. There might also be pod designs that exaggerate any lines or do interesting things with them. I could see a futurist version of Apple producing iPersons with purposefully overplayed lines that glow or even transparent sections showing the innerworkings of the pod's synthetic parts.

So the lines have to be intentional then but probably not universal. Indentures put into pods probably don't have owners who care about aesthetics in their "employees". Pods seem to fall into a nether region when it comes to interest groups. They aren't synths or uplifts with major movements for equality behind them; they aren't considered proper bodies for habitation, more like equipment (more so than other sleeves even). Someone who dwells in a pod is proably alot like someone in modern society who only wears over-alls or a wielding mask wherever they go. There are probably alot of indenture or low income individuals in the inner-system, especially Mars, who have to deal with pods. Some kind of masking mod would likely come up but it'd probably have to be a cheap one. Pods in Elysium probably make alot of effort to sparkle themselves up.

Please do note that the only pods with seams are the human ones: animal and "alien" pods have none that can be seen, but their own nature mean there is nothing they can be mistaken for. So I'd say that the seams are there so the pod can be recognized as such (and in the corebook, the Novacrab have no seams either, for example).

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Well they are biomorphs, maybe with some cyber but still very much bio-morphs. And honestly with the cost of simple after market body sculpting being around 250 and the pod being around 5k,I am still not buying the idea they left the lines in because it was cheaper. I could see some companies leaving a logo or a standard face, unchanged skin or eye color in some models, but I just do not understand why they would have seams. They cost of removing the lines during final production is negligible and like most other bio-morphs is prob done inside a vat.

The high cost category is not "approximately 5k", it is a window of values ranging from 1,500 credits all the way up to 9,999 credits. That's a pretty broad spectrum. I imagine that pods fit on the low end of the cost category, costing right around 1.5 to 2k to purchase, whereas biomorphs within the same cost category likely fit closer to 6-9k.

Xagroth wrote:

Please do note that the only pods with seams are the human ones: animal and "alien" pods have none that can be seen, but their own nature mean there is nothing they can be mistaken for. So I'd say that the seams are there so the pod can be recognized as such (and in the corebook, the Novacrab have no seams either, for example).

This is the same as my take on it. The animal and alien pods also do not carry the same stigma as the humanoid pods do, so I'm guessing that the societal disdain for humanoid pods plays a large factor in why these seams are present. Hypercorps are probably encouraged (or forced) by society to make their humanoid pods noticeable. And for probably a multitude of reasons; it's not just that people want to know who to discriminate against, but people probably don't like the possible fear that they might purchase a "biomorph" only to later discover that it is actually a pod. They want them to be recognizable, so they can't be fooled into accepting them as part of society. There are large amounts of the setting that would be nonsensical in a utopian society, but make sense in the context of a world rife with discrimination, xenophobia and class disparity. This is probably one of those elements.

TadanoriOyama wrote:

Does it say anywhere in the material that Pods have lines? I've seen it in some of the artwork but I only remember the description of pods saying that they where compositely constructed, not that lines of their part joinnings were clearly visible.

A little bit late, but I found one of the references. I knew they existed, I just couldn't remember where they were. Panopticon, page 144, Shaper morph; "They lack the distinctive seam lines applied to most pod morph designs."

Double post.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I can not say I agree, with the tech and the level of construction I simply can't see why seams would be there at all. They are only present in some models, meaning either they go though extra steps to remove them for some reason on non-human ones or they go though extra steps to apply them to human looking models. It makes more sense to apply them to a few models after market to meet with locale laws then to remove them from all but few select models.

My guess is that a final step in the non-human pod process is the closing of the seams, and that process is not done on humanoid pods for various reasons.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Also Before the fall pods would not have had the same stigma, so I can't agree with the idea they always had line. Nore do I agree with the line of thought they came well before nano vats and the like. Pods to me look more like an after the fall invention. They are a short cut method, a step up from something like a case, but barely.

Check out the reference to pods in the timeline section for BF 20-0, and it shows that they became common around that time period (so they likely existed before that), and were already controversial. To that end, synthmorphs aren't discriminated against solely because they can be AI-piloted, but also because they are a sign of destitute poverty (hence the "clanking masses" stigma). Not all of the discrimination in the setting is inherently tied to the TITANs. Pod, synthmorph and uplift discrimination has more to do with class segregation and good ol' fashioned racism/speciesism. The fact that they can be piloted by AI is just one of many reasons people hate them by 10 AF.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

And my guess is the reverse. That they final step is applying those lines to some models in some places.It makes no sense to me that they would go though extra steps on most models but "skip it" on just a few models. Also the thought they are left overs seems to me kinda sloppy.

Not leftovers. They are built from organ harvesting, the concept of growing organs and parts without them being a part of any body. Effectively, pods are grown the same way that edible meat and replacement organs are in 10 AF. Look up "in vitro meat" for more info on the process.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

You could be correct here. However, I do not see the current common types being "Old school" Frankenstein per vat models. I do not see things like pleasure pods catching on f they looked like sticted together bodies. The ones we have seem, have very pleasing lines and ones that look more "Artificial" then needed.

Actually, the one picture of a pleasure pod we have shows that they have those seams. To that end, I can think of one major reason that pleasure pods would catch on; cost. A prostitute in a pleasure pod generally probably denotes affordability for the average person, whereas a prostitute in a true biomorph body probably costs a whole hell of a lot more. Plus, a pleasure pod can be sleeved by an AI... making them the most advanced sex dolls in human history. Besides, pods never caught on with all of society. That's why there's a stigma attached to all humanoid pods. "Pod people", like the "clanking masses", are only for the morphologically flexible or the financially average and poor.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I guess we just will have to disagree. While I do agree they are cheaper, I just do not see the seams as being a byproduct and not a last stage addition.

Since pods existed before the setting's nanotech, I have to ask: how would you put together a collection of organs and muscle tissue into the form of a human being without having seams as a byproduct?

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

From what I am looking at they came into use about the same time. They way the timeline is laid out Pods came after nano assemblers and the like. I do not think you could produce Pods if those had not came first.

I disagree. The timeline indicates that nanotech assembly came about (in small number, heavily restricted) around the same period as pods became commonplace. My guess is that pods had been around a while prior to that (probably around the time of the first transhumans; BF 40-20).

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I would disagree, based off that timeline, the Nano assemblers came first, then uploading, then more uplifts, then Pods became common. While it is true at first the Nano assemblers would have been restricted or rare, but those are the kinds of things corps and governments use. Pods could not have been in use before Uploading, which came after the Nano assemblers. It is a good change Pods may have been some of the first Morphs As the first transhumans predate uploading by at lest 20 years give or take.

Again, "pods become common" is the point on the timeline, not "pods are invented". To that end, transhuman species being widespread happened well after transhumans were first created as well. This wasn't a concise timeline by any means, but I highly doubt… no, I think it flat out impossible that the controversial pods were invented [i]and[/i] became commonplace around the same exact time. That's just insane. Plus, it's very possible that pods were originally designed for AI to interact with humans in a human form. The elements of any specific timeline block aren't necessarily in chronological order. For instance, Project Futura went from AF 0-3, yet it's the last entry in the AF 0-10 section. It's up in the air whether uploading came after nano-assembly, since there is also destructive uploading (which does not require nanotech at all).

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I did not say I thought pods where invented and then became common. I simply do not think Pods could have been crafted( In the current version) before the nano assembler tech and the like. I also still think Pods may have been an early invention for uploading or at lest became common because of it. EP tries at time to be far to vague with its timeline, so you are correct it that it may not be in order, but it might be in order as well. It is an unknown thing and pretty much nothing more then a guess either way.

Pods don't require particularly advanced technology. The most advanced component is likely the cyberbrain, which as I mentioned before, might have been designed for housing an AI exclusively before brain emulation became a possibility. Otherwise, it seems to use very basic cyberware and bioware technology, and most of that technology was available by BF 40-20, when cloning became viable (cyberware came before that, even).

I think Decivre has a point. Putting together functional parts isn't that difficult. We can reattach removed body elements in present day. I don't think nano-tech is required to get living tissues of compatable types to bond together, just time and maybe some messy scars. It's seems reasonable to me that Pods would have existed as, essentually, biological robots operated by AIs prior to the advent of nanotech and uploading.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I can not say I agree, it is not the components but the whole. Each separate part may have came before, but the whole could not have been built with the tech that made each component alone. Cloning a whole body or even parts is a much lower step then building a working body from parts. While they may have housed AI's, I still do not feel as if the tech to make them existed before things such as Nano assemblers.

If you can build a working replica of every organ in the body, why is it somehow impossible to assemble those organs into a working replica body? Medtech had taken a lot of strides before nano-assembly came about, from immortality to implants to advanced gene therapy. If implants were already feasible by that time period, then fusing organs together to form a new body is not dramatically more amazing than that. It's just taking the implant process to a much bigger scale.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Also back to the lines, they simply do not match up lines you would have, they are to clean, far to uniform and do not match what would be underneath. They simply do not look like seams.

Let's be frank here; what would the seams on an assembled human look like? Because I'll be honest, I've never seen an assembled human. I doubt any people have. So it would be hard to really pinpoint what that look would actually be. They might not be clean-cut, but it's very possible that the organ-harvesting process creates clean-cut parts. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if pods are built on some sort of assembly line… in which case, clean-cut lines and uniformity fit the concept perfectly. It's hard to create an automated assembly process when dealing with jagged components and varied organ shapes. Uniformity would be a must.

TadanoriOyama wrote:

Though they are cloned, and genetically identical, I imagine small 'errors' can occur in the growth process, an extra quarter inch of flesh at the edge, slight contracting of the organ valves, etc, which would need to be corrected.

This fits with concepts of the pods requiring regular maintenance. They also employ shortcuts and limitations is the base design that cause the need for the maintenance and implants. I see the seams being an intentional design for easier maintenance of the pod morphs. Also, how I see it, why employing similar methods for a shaper morph and its cost is far higher, it is a more complete pod with less in build shortcuts and require less maintenance. Having a pod that requires a lot of maintenance during a heavy infiltration could be a huge hindrance. Needing less maintenance, means the seams are not required for the normal maintenance other pods require. This is speculation however.

Pyrite wrote:

Oooh, I like that, dissassembles for easy cleaning. You can probably pop a pod open and get into it's internals in less than a minute without damaging it. Swap out that defective heart and start 'er up again, back on the factory floor by lunchtime.

"An hour in the healing vat? Who has that kind of time?! Just swap out the lungs and put a nanobandage over the tear in the torso."

Geonis wrote:

Also, how I see it, why employing similar methods for a shaper morph and its cost is far higher, it is a more complete pod with less in build shortcuts and require less maintenance. Having a pod that requires a lot of maintenance during a heavy infiltration could be a huge hindrance. Needing less maintenance, means the seams are not required for the normal maintenance other pods require. This is speculation however.

I think the shaper's seamlessness has more to do with the fact that it's an infiltration morph, designed to be able to shapeshift and match any other biomorph. It would be hard to pull that off with seams.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

No, not impossible, unstable, time consuming and not profitable yes. They had all the times you speak of, but without a means of putting things together on a microscopic level, you are talking about a lengthy and time consuming process. You can't do assably line level without something like a nano assembler, it simply isn't fees-able from a corporate point of view.

Two things: [list=1][*]Attaching an organ is only moderately time-consuming in our day, and would probably go significantly faster once we have robots handling surgical procedures. [*]Nano-assembly is anything [i]but[/i] fast, and in fact is one of the slower ways to create something. You can get a vehicle built far faster using traditional methods than you could with nanomachines. The advantages of nanotech are more about quality and ease of production, rather than an increase of speed.[/list]

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

What I mean is, look at the lines. The placement in the core book. They are placed like that of an android or pipe, with no thought to what is under them. Muscle and bone doe not stop in nice little lines. Would you grow half an arm ans stop at the elbow...or stop halfway between the elbow and the wrist? What about to the shoulder? Why would you not grow a whole arm and not 3/4th an arm stopping well below the shoulder? Stopping in odd half points would not make iot better to construct, it would be easier and faster to connected things where they are meant to connect. Yet the lines do not show this. I can see the Assembly line thing, and I agree that may be how they are made, but there is no reason to grow under half a limb or 3/4th of one when the whole limb would be easier to attach . But we do not have clean cute lines like that. We have a bit more random lines that look, less like something on flesh and more like a tattoo or something from a synth.

You are correct. [i]Natural[/i] muscle and bone do not stop in nice little lines. But artificially-produced muscle and bone can stop wherever we choose to stop it, so long as we have the means to sustain those organs. There are plenty of advantages to growing a body in smaller chunks, not the least of which is the fact that smaller components can likely be harvested faster than larger ones. It is much faster to grow 1 pound of crop from a hundred plants than a hundred pounds of crop from one plant. Plus, just looking at the pod on page 191 of Sunward, a pod's body is far more segregated and made of a much larger set of smaller parts. I count 11-12 different segments in the right arm alone, which means that a pod is likely made up of organs and muscles harvested independently, with skin in sections rather than as a singular unit. On the contrary, the pleasure pod from the core book only has 3 segments to the arm (lower, upper and hand). Considering that the latter was a morph for a socialite and the former for a mere criminal, it leads me to believe that the number of segments that a pod has may vary from model to model, with higher-end pods having far less segments and being far more akin to an actual human. Furthermore, a close look at the pod in Sunward shows to me that the seams are likely held together by cyberware joints rather than some nanotech fusion. Even from a distance, the pleasure pod's seams in the core book look almost cybernetic and artificial as well. This likely means that those seams are not being held together by nanotech fusion of skin cells, but merely by cyberware grafting and part attachment... relatively primitive tech in comparison.

Decivre wrote:

I think the shaper's seamlessness has more to do with the fact that it's an infiltration morph, designed to be able to shapeshift and match any other biomorph. It would be hard to pull that off with seams.

Agreed, but if my argument is seams are from a functional standpoint and shapers do not have seams, I felt it needed to be addressed with that in mind. My theory is shapers use less shortcuts therefor require less maintenance, both of these factors would help it remain a better infiltration morph as well. They use the same construction principle, making them still pods, but are better made. Since they seem not mass produced like other pods, this also fits.

Seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Stopping in odd half points would not make iot better to construct, it would be easier and faster to connected things where they are meant to connect. Yet the lines do not show this. I can see the Assembly line thing, and I agree that may be how they are made, but there is no reason to grow under half a limb or 3/4th of one when the whole limb would be easier to attach . But we do not have clean cute lines like that. We have a bit more random lines that look, less like something on flesh and more like a tattoo or something from a synth.

Keep in mind pods are not high-end products, they are cheap and fast produced bodies to help meet a market from the worker class. There is no reason to assume they build on a limb by limb basis, this would potentially slow down the process. They have limitations and shortcuts in the overall design(page 142). There is no reason why they would connect muscle tissue and nerve systems when an implant would function for the job. Now, the issue with requiring nanoassemblers.

page 326 wrote:

Nanotechnology is the precise manipulation of matter at the atomic level, typically using millions of micro-scale nanomachines.

I really do not see how manipulating on an atomic level will make pods suddenly more feasible. There is no evidence that I have seen that even hint that pods require that fine level of manipulation, the fact they use shortcuts may even imply the opposite.