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Where are the children?

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Wed, 2012-06-20 03:09
#1
Anarhista Anarhista's picture
Where are the children?
Why are so few children born in EP (Excluding Jovian Republic)? Putting intellectual reasons aside, humans have strong drive to have progeny hardwired in our brains so why aren't we making more kids in time of crisis? (I know for a fact that people do make babies when spending to much time in bomb shelters even as their homes are being blown apart) Have anybody found natality statistics in EP? Even with millions of uploads waiting a morph large settlements on planets should promote natality because uploads supply is not unlimited and after couple of decades those people will have horribly outdated skills... [or not ;] Does some societies in EP forbid/restrict/inhibit childbirth and why/where? How many children uploads are waiting in 'soulbanks'? (people are willing to sacrifice... a lot, for their kids, and sending them away from holocaust/TITAN war machines certainly qualify as an example...) Is default setting in biomorphs: fertile? Can pod have children? Are there exowombs? (to carry babies instead the old fashion way)
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Wed, 2012-06-20 04:20
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Re: Where are the children?
I haven't read much about this subject in the rules yet, but I am sure it is mentioned somewhere. A few things to remember though is that in the industrial nations today very few children are born. Some nations even have declining populations and many more would if not for immigration. So our society today is moving towards fewer and fewer people feeling the urge to procreate and if you add immortality in the mix I believe babies are sort of rare. After the Fall however, there was a strong urge to have children but with the new technologies availible to transhumanity this wasn't done "normally". Enter the Lost. But other than that, having a child is probably somewhat of a social stigma and seen as extremely selfish when tons of people still live as infomorphs and there is not enough habitat space or morphs for them all.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 04:21
Seekerofshadowlight Seekerofshadowlight's picture
Re: Where are the children?
A few issues here. First off is space, already you have millions of humans ready to be reinstated with no body or no place to go. Secondly children in EP would pretty much always be planned, the tech is to advanced for "Ooppsies" to happen. I would say a good many habs have limits on breeding, you must have room and the extra supplies for an extra person. I say there are laws and hoops you must jump though. Also many Morpsh may have restriction placed by corps upon them that you would need to unlock ( Read Pay an extra fee for) to breed. As to the last, Pods lack the organs and can not breed and exowombs( They easily have the tech) would be the default way for most habs I would say.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 04:38
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Where are the children?
Unfortunately, the setting info regarding children in the setting is very sparse, so I couldn't tell you the answers to most of your questions outside of speculation. But I can answer these ones:
Anarhista wrote:
Is default setting in biomorphs: fertile? Can pod have children? Are there exowombs? (to carry babies instead the old fashion way)
Biomorphs are apparently fertile, but contraception is extremely easy in this age. Pods are always sterile. Exowombs exist in the setting, and have been referenced, but have not been statted out yet, nor has there been much info on them.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 05:01
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
Re: Where are the children?
Children are mentioned in several areas of the books, most prominently in recent memory in the beginning of the planetary consortium section of Sunward, where 'choosing your children's development path' is touted as a legislative goal of a conservative consortium politician. I think on wealthy habitats, especially in the Consortium and LLA, having 1-3 children from exowomb birth is not uncommon. Within those polities, it also gives the middle classes something to lose, making them easier to manipulate with fearmongering. But definitely in the transhuman future having children is a conscious act, and I think few people will choose to do so without very stable situations.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 07:05
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Where are the children?
Worth noting that this is one of *the* perennial topics. Search the archives to find many earlier threads covering everything from the transhuman birds and bees to education.
Anarhista wrote:
Why are so few children born in EP (Excluding Jovian Republic)? Putting intellectual reasons aside, humans have strong drive to have progeny hardwired in our brains so why aren't we making more kids in time of crisis?
No, we don't. The idea that we are hardwired to have progeny and that this is not under conscious control is empirically wrong: I have talked to demographers about this. Fertility rates are affected by a lot of things, many of which are cultural and economical. There is a tendency for teenage pregnancy to jump if the environment looks scary, but overall fertility is not affected. What really affects fertility is the cost of having children, whether the cultural templates show big or small families as prestigious (see the famous studies of how television soap operas affect fertility in India and South America), and social contagion (do you see your peers having children?) There are economies of scale too: if there are few kids there will be fewer playgrounds, daycare centers and schools. The demographers were seriously considering that there is no equilibrium fertility at all. The UN is *assuming* we will all converge to 2.1 kids per woman, but there is actually no evidence for this whatsoever. It might be that we could end up in a situation where all societies are having big population declines. This might be what is happening in EP. It might even have been starting long before the Fall, ameliorated by life extension and later uploading. Getting kids is something nice but fairly expensive (in terms of effort and foregone career/free time) that relatively few do.
Quote:
Does some societies in EP forbid/restrict/inhibit childbirth and why/where?
I can certainly imagine some societies restricting certain forms of childbirth. Having kids by random genetic recombination without quality control or carrying them around in an utreus rather than a safe exowomb might be viewed as child abuse by some groups. This might be mainly an inner system thing. In some habitats resources are scarce, and there too children might be seen as a luxury (some Brinkers) - or a distraction from the purpose of the habitat (some corporate and military habitats). As others said, birth control is likely the default of all normal morphs. All children are deliberate.
Quote:
How many children uploads are waiting in 'soulbanks'? (people are willing to sacrifice... a lot, for their kids, and sending them away from holocaust/TITAN war machines certainly qualify as an example...)
I would imagine many, many people giving orphans and child uploads priority in getting resleeved. Most polities would likely find the idea of children growing up virtually rather disturbing. So there are probably just children stored that cannot be resleeved because their parents cannot be resleeved - hmm, maybe some charity cases in the PC have adults being resleeved in order to be united with their children, who have state sponsored resleeving.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 15:36
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Re: Where are the children?
From what I understand, basic biomods is supposed to include some biological contraceptives. I can't remember where I had read it though, it seem to be absent in the description for basis biomods in the gear section. Regardless, in EP sex is casual and considered "safe" by our standards.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 18:27
Lorsa Lorsa's picture
Re: Where are the children?
I wonder if in the eclipse phase world, if you lived in the right place, you could make money off being pregnant. There might be people who are willing to pay for leasing your pregnant morph for an evening just to experience it "for real" (rather than just through xp). I know xp's are very very very real but many people might still go for the actual real and if almost noone is pregnant perhaps the experience is worth paying for?
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Wed, 2012-06-20 20:26
MrPrim MrPrim's picture
Re: Where are the children?
I have a mental image of refugee families in Case morphs pooling their indenture-income to buy their kids real bio morphs so they can have a real childhood.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 21:03
Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Where are the children?
Not all biomorphs are fertile. According to Panopticon, all uplifted animal morphs have to pay a special fee to "unblock" the fertility in their morphs, a very expensive extra fee. Which means most uplifted animals are still bred/uplifted/created by corps.
Lorsa wrote:
I wonder if in the eclipse phase world, if you lived in the right place, you could make money off being pregnant. There might be people who are willing to pay for leasing your pregnant morph for an evening just to experience it "for real" (rather than just through xp). I know xp's are very very very real but many people might still go for the actual real and if almost noone is pregnant perhaps the experience is worth paying for?
Certainly I can see this happening in small circles, maybe bioconservatives and surely in the Junta. Still, only on small circles. Most people would probably consider it unconfortable, unhealthy, unethical, etc.
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Wed, 2012-06-20 23:17
Tyrnis Tyrnis's picture
Re: Where are the children?
Sepherim wrote:
Lorsa wrote:
I wonder if in the eclipse phase world, if you lived in the right place, you could make money off being pregnant. There might be people who are willing to pay for leasing your pregnant morph for an evening just to experience it "for real" (rather than just through xp). I know xp's are very very very real but many people might still go for the actual real and if almost noone is pregnant perhaps the experience is worth paying for?
Certainly I can see this happening in small circles, maybe bioconservatives and surely in the Junta. Still, only on small circles. Most people would probably consider it unconfortable, unhealthy, unethical, etc.
This would be almost unheard of among bioconservatives in general and in the Jovian Republic specifically, unless you're just referring to natural pregnancy. Resleeving is something that the nasty so-called transhumans do, not true humanity! Even if resleeving were tolerated at all, it's certainly not going to be allowed just so someone can have the experience of pregnancy for a day.
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Thu, 2012-06-21 10:01
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Where are the children?
Sepherim wrote:
Most people would probably consider it unconfortable, unhealthy, unethical, etc.
But many people will also consider it SO HOT, and what's hot sells. All those things you list just raise the price.
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Fri, 2012-06-22 03:05
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Where are the children?
The experience and discomfort of being pregnant, (and other bothersome experiences) could in some polities be mandatory education. "A burnt child dreads the fire."
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Fri, 2012-06-22 10:42
OpsCon OpsCon's picture
Re: Where are the children?
One would also wonder if the Hypercorps encourage people to 'have children to keep the species alive and repopulate after the fall' just for the express purpose of keeping easy access to infomorphs for virtual offices... and getting access to new and healthy biomorphs... Creepy? Hells yes, but it fits the setting.
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