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New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms

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Erithtotl Erithtotl's picture
New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
I've had the books for a few months and got to take my regular Pathfinder group through an EP session. Even though we spent 2/3rd the time on character creation, fun was had by all. I think my D&D trained brain is having a little trouble adjusting to the more rules-lite EP. I'll get there, but in the meantime I could use some help. I decided to use the sample mission included in the GM screen (with a few variations). We didn't get all that far, but next session they will definitely encounter the self-replicating TITAN nanoswarm. I realize the point of these things is that they are essentially unstoppable, but it would still be nice to have a bit more rules crunch on how to run the swarm. How fast can it move, for example? I can't find into on this anywhere. When it is first hit with a new attack how long does it take to react/recover? How much damage does it do? Any other info would be helpful. My players will just be annoyed if I'm just handwaving anything they do and saying 'it's invincible'. Even if it is invincible, they are going to want to understand that it is working by a set of rules.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Sure TITAN Nanoswarms work by a set of rules. Problem: your players don't know them. This is sort of the horror element of the setting. Exsurgents, TITAN weaponry, and everything else outside the Solar system operates on rules and strictures that transhumanity still has yet to discover. These nanoswarms seem like unstoppable clouds of apocalyptic death, but that's only because you are eons behind it in terms of technological advancement. If your players were neanderthals, how would you explain to them the workings of a modern computer? The scientific method? I'd imagine it would be just as easy as explaining to transhumans the workings of the exsurgent virus and TITAN weaponry.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Decimator Decimator's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
[i]How fast is a nanoswarm?[/i] -I don't know this either. Best I can manage is to point you at the swarmanoid morph, but that's macroscopic. [i]When it is first hit with a new attack how long does it take to react/recover?[/i] -The rulebook states the swarm requires two hours to devise and propagate a defense against a new weapon, after which said weapon deals minimum or no damage. The swarm won't be able to devise new defenses in the few seconds to minutes a fight lasts. [i]How much damage does it do?[/i] -TITAN nanoswarms can replicate any of the functions of transhuman nanoswarms and nanoswarm-using gear. This means that they're able to inject you with nerve toxin while disassembling you, among other things. They can also assemble themselves into a plasma rifle with a skill rating of 40+. The section doesn't list a timescale for this ability as opposed to nanofabrication, so I don't know how long it should take. They aren't invincible, just nearly so. They are made of collections of atoms, so the standard destruction methods apply. Nothing made of atoms can survive being turned to plasma, so a nuke or AM bomb would do it. Continual gamma irradiation or neutron bombardment should also keep the swarm from being able to regenerate properly, though these won't permanently destroy it. A character should also theoretically be able to suborn the swarm and bend it to his will, but the swarm's electronic mind is as dangerous as its body, and the character would have to have previously acquired exploits known to work against TITAN machines. Edit: And Decivre is right. Treat TITAN nanoswarms as an inexorable cloud of death. The only way to deal with them permanently is to use the most powerful weapons transhumanity possesses - antimatter and nukes.
Cthuluzord Cthuluzord's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Treat it like a CoC monster. All damage from weapons fire is reduced to minimum. It has 50 DUR. Treat damage to PC's like a dissembler swarm, or make it infectious and treat it like an exsurgent virus or scorcher algorithm or whatever else you want. If you want it to switch swarm times, make it spend its combat action reconfiguring the swarm. If it needs to heal damage, make it spend its action reconfiguring matter in the environment to self-replicate. Otherwise, it can spend its action moving and attacking. I suggest giving it a really high speed but a SPD of 1. This will give players with boss morphs the advantage they paid for and allow others to get away if they can perform some high-speed Freefall checks. The only thing capable of doing regular damage a swarm is a plasmaburst grenade. EMP bursts will take swarms down instantly (nanoswarms are generally too small to contain EMP shielding); however, the pulse has to be really big to kill it entirely. If any of the swarm is left unaffected, it will self-replicate with new defenses in place. Still, a well-placed EMP grenade would slow it down considerably. Guardian swarms might also give player a round or two to escape. Nanoswarms are essentially immobilized by vacuum. In a depressurization scenario, especially if the breach was narrow, it is doubtful that the majority of the swarm could resist the pressure sucking into space. Spacing the ship would be another way to limit the swarms movement to surfaces only. Airlocks also take time to breech/bypass, so they'll have that much time to take actions to stop the swarm. The players are in trouble, certainly, but if they make good choices and came prepared, they are far from screwed. Even if they are screwed, they have back-ups. That's the beauty of EP; there is no reason to be pissed about a TPK. Just be sure beforehand to lay out how many rounds each action to delay will buy them, how many rounds a task action to detach the infected ship will take, how many rounds of successful freefall actions it takes to get off-board, etc. That should make things fair and prevent the need to draw out some sort of extensive grid map like DnD. Treat time as tokens. PC's need to amass more than the swarm with successful checks and tactical actions, or else they get ate. I would not recommend using "rules" to make the nanoswarm something PC's can "beat." Unlike Epic level DnD characters, which essentially become Gilgamesh and can kill the sky itself with their +99 Vorpal swords of omnipotence, the spirit of EP is altogether darker. The players do not have control over all, nor even a majority, of the universe, and there are things out there that could be considered Gods by all equivalent standards. Sometimes, they cannot win, and to fail to recognize those moments is suicide. The goal of Firewall, and EP in general, is survival, whereas the unstated goal of most DnD/Pathfinder games is to conquer or rule. So let them know escape is the only option, be sure they understand their options, and sic the monster on them.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Overall, if I remember my earlier calculations (they are *somewhere* in the forum) nanoswarms will typically move fairly slowly if they are in cloud mode, maybe a meter per second or so. But they can speed up *a lot* by bunching up into clusters, easily reaching bird speed (think an African or European swallow). And give them a while, and they can make small jet engines or rockets...
Cthuluzord wrote:
EMP bursts will take swarms down instantly (nanoswarms are generally too small to contain EMP shielding); however, the pulse has to be really big to kill it entirely.
And that assumes the initial nanoswarm was not ultrasound to coordinate - I love to point out this alternative to GMs who have EMP-happy players.
Quote:
Nanoswarms are essentially immobilized by vacuum. In a depressurization scenario, especially if the breach was narrow, it is doubtful that the majority of the swarm could resist the pressure sucking into space.
I think nanoswarms adapted to vacuum are quite doable (just give them a while) - but even they they are unlikely to be able to resist being dragged out through a breach, since the surface area to volume ratio is so high. A CoC monster is a good analogy. Bound by some laws of physics, but not necessarily the rules you expect...
Extropian
Tyrnis Tyrnis's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Arenamontanus wrote:
Overall, if I remember my earlier calculations (they are *somewhere* in the forum) nanoswarms will typically move fairly slowly if they are in cloud mode, maybe a meter per second or so. But they can speed up *a lot* by bunching up into clusters, easily reaching bird speed (think an African or European swallow). And give them a while, and they can make small jet engines or rockets...
But the real question here is whether they could grip a coconut by the husk and carry it.
King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Tyrnis wrote:
But the real question here is whether they could grip a coconut by the husk and carry it.
A determined cloud of death most defiantly could & get the added bonus of faking the sounds of horse hooves. http://style.org/unladenswallow/
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
The really fun/horrifying thing is that nanoswarms might indeed know all about old 20th century jokes and for their own unfathomable reasons make use of it. (a warped sense of humour? a mistaken idea that this blends in? just random media wallpapers for their job of hunter/killing/ascension?) GM: "You hear a strange sound in the distance, from beyond the eroded cliffs." [The Reclaimer PC manages his "Interest: Old Earth Life" roll] "... it sounds like horse hooves." PC: "What?! Survivors? OK. We carefully peek around the cliffs." GM: "At first you don't see anything. Then you notice a set of pairs of coconut shells floating through the air, clapping together to make a horse sound." PCs: "..." GM: "Suddenly you hear a voice calling 'Dismount!' and the coconut shells turn into expanding clouds of dust with a loud whoomp. The nanoswarm rushes towards you..."
Extropian
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
You, sir, just made my day. Now if only I could stop laughing... XDDD
Erithtotl Erithtotl's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Wanted to let everyone know how this went. It was a long wait for our second session as this is essentially an 'off-game' for us. I ran through the setup to the scene aboard ship by fleshing out the very bare skeleton that is set up in the adventure included in the GM's screen. My group eventually managed to hack into the scum barges' non-public security cameras to monitor the comings and goings from various docked ships to determine which one was carrying the arms dealer. They then traced some of his customers to a brothel where one of the group pursuaded a pleasure-odl there, who was working as a go-between for the customers and the seller to give them a passcode to arrange a buy. The group showed up on the barge and all hell broke lose as documented in the adventure. I added some twists though. First, my group is used to D&D's structure, so I used grid maps (with 2 meter squares) to run the combat. Second, since this is an arms dealer's ship, I had a number of the storage containers in the cargo hold have weapons of various types. As the shootout began the party used the persuasion to convice Gray that they were not with the attackers, at which point Gray sent them an overlay of what weapons were stored in the storage containers. The players had only begun to get weapons by the time the nanoswarm was set lose. Then began a desperate race to the bridge to get the ship un-docked from the station. One of the players had to pursuade one of Gray's severely wounded bodyguards to open the various doors between the cargo bay and the bridge as the doors were biometerically sealed. In the meantime the rest of the group were attempting to lob EMP grenades at the nanoswarm to limited effect (no one had throwing skill). The nanoswarm engulfed a crate of thermobaric seeker missles and lobbed one at the door leading to the passageway to the bridge. It used the created gap to pursue the remaining member of the team who had made it to the bridge. He in turn convinced the scum barge to do an emergency undock of the ship while he attempted to hack his way past the bridge control ai. The rest of the group were recovering more EMP grendades when a secondary swarm formed from the infected remains of one of the dead bodyguards. The primary swarm meanwhile had formed a cutter and was cutting through the control circuits of the hatch to get into the bridge. At this moment the first player managed to hack the AI and kick in the thrusters, resulting in gravity pushing back towards the tail of the ship and everyone being thrown back against the far bulkhead. One of the players then climbed up the floor right into the mini nanoswarm and set of an EMP grenade, temporarily stunning it before it could kill him. At this point Firewall contacted the ship and informed them they had 20 seconds to evacuate before they tactically nuked the ship. The players in the hold raced to the airlock and attempted to put on vac suits while the player piloting the ship started spraying his stolen railpistol against the porholes in the bridge. With literally his last bullet did just enough damage to shatter the porthole and was sucked into space, dying of explosive decompression right before the main nanoswarm cut through the hatch. The other players managed to escape out the airlock in vac suits but were too close to the blast as the misisle hit the ship, the debris shredding their suits and killing them also. They all then woke up re-sleaved on Mars (memory intact, as all their stacks had escaped) and the session ended. Great time was had by all, I'm hoping we can play it again soon.
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Erithtotl wrote:
At this moment the first player managed to hack the AI and kick in the thrusters, resulting in gravity pushing back towards the tail of the ship and everyone being thrown back against the far bulkhead. One of the players then climbed up the floor right into the mini nanoswarm and set of an EMP grenade, temporarily stunning it before it could kill him. ... ... They all then woke up re-sleaved on Mars (memory intact, as all their stacks had escaped) and the session ended.
I'm seriously curious how the guy who was directly killed by being swarmed had his stack recovered.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
LordNephets LordNephets's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
It was stated that their "mind" was just as dangerous as their body. However, does that mean it is truely immune to hacking? Certainly a fast infomorph or CPU would be able to successfully hack and either control or shut down a nanoswarm?
All sciences are now under the obligation to prepare the ground for the future task of the philosopher, which is to solve the problem of value, to determine the true hierarchy of values.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
LordNephets wrote:
It was stated that their "mind" was just as dangerous as their body. However, does that mean it is truely immune to hacking? Certainly a fast infomorph or CPU would be able to successfully hack and either control or shut down a nanoswarm?
TITAN tech is "hands out" for everybody. You wanna hack a TITAN nanoswarm? Gratz, you are now infected with the Exurgent Virus branch of the week... You are now a threat that needs to be neutralized by Firewall!
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
I would rather see it as amazingly dangerous to try to hack, but allow it - because the ensuing disasters would be so fun! After all, even a mere nanoswarm is often smarter and a better hacker than the PCs. So let them try, and then they can't complain when they discover they walked into a honeypot and their warped ego - with their passwords and access codes - now is a part of the swarm repertoire.
Extropian
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
LordNephets wrote:
It was stated that their "mind" was just as dangerous as their body. However, does that mean it is truely immune to hacking? Certainly a fast infomorph or CPU would be able to successfully hack and either control or shut down a nanoswarm?
A TITAN nanoswarm not immune to hacking, but it's never wise to take on an extremely-superior technological force in a match of technology. Really think about it; you are a transhuman taking on a post-singularity intelligence in a battle for computer technology supremacy. That'd be like an amish community taking on the US Marines in a battle for military supremacy. When humanity has reached singularity-level technologies, then we can start talking about facing the TITAN horrors head-on.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Decivre wrote:
When humanity has reached singularity-level technologies, then we can start talking about facing the TITAN horrors head-on.
Potentially as our very own brand of horrors, of course. But yeah, very temporary results should be possible with hacking, you should never be able to succeed at the same trick twice because it would instantly develop code countermeasures, and there should indeed be several devious traps. It will be worse if you aren't the first transhuman whose tried.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Pyrite wrote:
Potentially as our very own brand of horrors, of course.
To be honest, "horror" is a very subjective term. Those beastly looking whippers might actually be very sexy in the eyes of the beings that created them (if they conceive of concepts like beauty).
Pyrite wrote:
But yeah, very temporary results should be possible with hacking, you should never be able to succeed at the same trick twice because it would instantly develop code countermeasures, and there should indeed be several devious traps. It will be worse if you aren't the first transhuman whose tried.
Even if someone else has tried, your different brand of software might not be noticed by their countermeasures. But even then, you're probably not much of a threat. Taking on a TITAN weapon with your exploits is akin to breaking into a government supercomputer with your calculator... you are vastly outclassed in software AND hardware.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
LordNephets LordNephets's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Well if you can't fight them, you can't hack them, and it's hard to escape from them. TITAN nanoswarms sound pretty much unstoppable short of WMD attacks. This is why I would never recommend creating self-improving and self-aware AI.
All sciences are now under the obligation to prepare the ground for the future task of the philosopher, which is to solve the problem of value, to determine the true hierarchy of values.
Erithtotl Erithtotl's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Pyrite wrote:
Erithtotl wrote:
At this moment the first player managed to hack the AI and kick in the thrusters, resulting in gravity pushing back towards the tail of the ship and everyone being thrown back against the far bulkhead. One of the players then climbed up the floor right into the mini nanoswarm and set of an EMP grenade, temporarily stunning it before it could kill him. ... ... They all then woke up re-sleaved on Mars (memory intact, as all their stacks had escaped) and the session ended.
I'm seriously curious how the guy who was directly killed by being swarmed had his stack recovered.
He wasn't. Perhaps my text wasn't clear. The detonation of the EMP kept the swarm from swarming him. I ruled that the EMP would effectively disable the smaller swarm for 2 combat rounds and then a 2nd EMP added 2 more rounds to that delay (that was the maximum). I could have been mean and said the swarm infected him before he EMP'd it, but since this wasn't a fully formed swarm (thus smaller), I ruled he could detonate the EMP before being in infection range and still catch it in the blast radius of the grenade.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Erithtotl wrote:
He wasn't. Perhaps my text wasn't clear. The detonation of the EMP kept the swarm from swarming him. I ruled that the EMP would effectively disable the smaller swarm for 2 combat rounds and then a 2nd EMP added 2 more rounds to that delay (that was the maximum). I could have been mean and said the swarm infected him before he EMP'd it, but since this wasn't a fully formed swarm (thus smaller), I ruled he could detonate the EMP before being in infection range and still catch it in the blast radius of the grenade.
Well, I would have not saved the guy. Backup is there for a reason, and Firewall tends to pay the bill if you are KIA. To be precise, of the three groups I have GMed at EP, only one blowed up completely. Tampering with a nuclear reactor and roll a 99 in Continuity (30 minutes to the time limit to boot) tends to do that. The other groups were a little more cautious in combat, and agressive on movement, and while they took heavy damage, they survived all encounters without casualties. Again, Backup is a "do not hold back" safety net: at worst, players will lose five to ten XP...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
LordNephets wrote:
Well if you can't fight them, you can't hack them, and it's hard to escape from them. TITAN nanoswarms sound pretty much unstoppable short of WMD attacks. This is why I would never recommend creating self-improving and self-aware AI.
You can fight them to a degree. I allowed my PCs to use high explosive ordinance to stop a swarm [i]for a time[/i]. But they probably couldn't be destroyed without some ultra-heavy ordinance. We're talking erasure squad-level ordinance. Atmospheric antimatter bombardment is probably a minimum level of weaponry to lay on them. Definitely not something the sentinels should get their hands on.
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: New to EP: Questions about TITAN nanoswarms
Decivre wrote:
Definitely not something the sentinels should get their hands on.
And that's why there is always some nice warship around that Firewall can force to fire on some given coordinates to blow stuff up. Or smugglers. In the quickstart rules, well, it is a nuke fired against a drifting cargo vessel. I don't find difficult to assume a lot of ships carry some low-yield nukes, just in case they need to blow an asteroid up or something similar. After all, it is easy to take some radiactive stuff from your main reactor and engineer a nuclear torpedo. Useless against military ships, but...