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Nanotech and Swarms questions

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Zyx Zyx's picture
Nanotech and Swarms questions
I have a few nit-picky questions regarding nanotech/swarms: Swarmoids seem to have a few cheap advantages that I don't know how to rule on, the first being the extent to which the swarm can break up-- can a swarmoid morph send one or two of its microbots off to spy? (is there no limit on how far away any single bot can go from the swarm?) The second advantage deals with forking-- if a character with a swarmoid morph makes a beta fork say, can they send their fork off with a quarter of the swarm to go do stuff, instantly splitting their morph? The rule stopping this would seem to be the limit of one ego per cyberbrain, but if the swarmoid had a ghostrider module and puppetsock say, where the ego could chill and still control part of their morph while their fork does the rest, would it work then? Now, on nanotech, I have a question regarding hives. Their prices seem oddly constructed. A specialized hive is ~5,000 creds. Now, I couldn't figure out based on the description whether or not that hive would be bought already capable of producing a swarm, but 5,000 creds is the same cost as a dissembler swarm, leading me to believe that the specialized hive must come 'blank', aka the actual device is worthless without buying blueprints for it. This gives me a different sort of problem: the blueprints for a dissembler swarm would cost 20,000 creds. This seems prohibitively expensive. Am I getting something wrong or are the prices here simply misconstrued? On the line of the prices being misconstrued, there is the odd fact that specialized hives are tossed into robots and vehicles throughout the EP books. One example is the bughunter bot in Panopticon, which comes with a specialized guardian hive. A bughunter bot costs 1,000 creds. A specialized guardian hive, under the system where you buy blueprints and the hive separate, costs 10,000 creds. This leads to the scenario where a player wants to buy a bughunter bot at a shop and use his Hardware [robotics] skill to pop the hive out of it, toss the bot away, and use the hive for his own nefarious purposes. And I find something really wrong with it, but there's nothing I can find in the books to prevent him from enacting that plan.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Zyx wrote:
I have a few nit-picky questions regarding nanotech/swarms: Swarmoids seem to have a few cheap advantages that I don't know how to rule on, the first being the extent to which the swarm can break up-- can a swarmoid morph send one or two of its microbots off to spy? (is there no limit on how far away any single bot can go from the swarm?)
No, there is a limit. The swarmanoid uses distributed computing to run your mind over the entire swarm. This only works if radio contact is maintained throughout the morph. For this reason, the individual parts of a swarmanoid must stay within contact range. This gives them the potential to split up in urban environments, where they can piggyback on the bandwidth of other transmitters... but in the boondocks, they probably cannot separate so easily or so far. Furthermore, a location that is intentionally made to restrict radio broadcasts would further hinder the swarmanoid's ability to separate. That said, a swarmanoid would likely be far less effective when separated, so I would apply temporary wound modifiers to most actions done while separated.
Zyx wrote:
The second advantage deals with forking-- if a character with a swarmoid morph makes a beta fork say, can they send their fork off with a quarter of the swarm to go do stuff, instantly splitting their morph? The rule stopping this would seem to be the limit of one ego per cyberbrain, but if the swarmoid had a ghostrider module and puppetsock say, where the ego could chill and still control part of their morph while their fork does the rest, would it work then?
I normally would rule with a no; a basic swarmanoid would not be able to separate into different sections controlled independently by forks. However, I would allow multiple swarmanoid morphs to act as one massive morph if you modify them with the modular design enhancement. In this case, I would allow individual clusters of the swarmanoid whole to act independently (as they are effectively independent morphs that can merge together to form one morph).
Zyx wrote:
Now, on nanotech, I have a question regarding hives. Their prices seem oddly constructed. A specialized hive is ~5,000 creds. Now, I couldn't figure out based on the description whether or not that hive would be bought already capable of producing a swarm, but 5,000 creds is the same cost as a dissembler swarm, leading me to believe that the specialized hive must come 'blank', aka the actual device is worthless without buying blueprints for it. This gives me a different sort of problem: the blueprints for a dissembler swarm would cost 20,000 creds. This seems prohibitively expensive. Am I getting something wrong or are the prices here simply misconstrued?
No. You need only pay the cost for the hive plus the cost for the swarm it can create. You do not need to purchase the blueprints. But a specialized hive must be purchased with a specific swarm it must be designed for. The general hive is far more expensive to use, as you need blueprints for that, but has the advantage of producing any swarm you want. A specialized hive can only produce one swarm type... ever.
Zyx wrote:
On the line of the prices being misconstrued, there is the odd fact that specialized hives are tossed into robots and vehicles throughout the EP books. One example is the bughunter bot in Panopticon, which comes with a specialized guardian hive. A bughunter bot costs 1,000 creds. A specialized guardian hive, under the system where you buy blueprints and the hive separate, costs 10,000 creds. This leads to the scenario where a player wants to buy a bughunter bot at a shop and use his Hardware [robotics] skill to pop the hive out of it, toss the bot away, and use the hive for his own nefarious purposes. And I find something really wrong with it, but there's nothing I can find in the books to prevent him from enacting that plan.
The guardian hive on the bughunter isn't quite what you might think it is. The bughunter is designed to be constantly surrounded by a guardian swarm, making it capable of eliminating any nanoscopic espionage technologies the bughunter might encounter. It's swarm is likely designed to simply produce a cloud around the bughunter and keep it active at all times... it is not the sort of guardian swarm most people would want to have (unless they want to be constantly covered by a guardian swarm, of course). Also note that costs in Eclipse Phase are best described as a window, rather than a specific price. Moderate cost varies from 500-1499 credits (save for at character creation). Just because the cost rating for that hive is identical to to the bughunter does not mean that the hive is necessarily the same price, or even more expensive.
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Zyx Zyx's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Thank you! That clears things up. So, on a side note, does that mean a swarmoid morph with a radio booster implant can spread itself (potentially) over several kilometers?
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Zyx wrote:
So, on a side note, does that mean a swarmoid morph with a radio booster implant can spread itself (potentially) over several kilometers?
Unless the swarm can localize it's thought to a part of the swarm (possibly with a ghostrider module), probably not. Speed-of-light delays at long ranges probably become significant enough that a brain becomes problematic to emulate at real time. This could probably be corrected somewhat with software, resulting in the thought processes of the swarm slowing down significantly. Without such software, the swarm would effectively be brain-damaged, and might suffer stress. Note that (I think) the costs for a specialized hive were reduced to Moderate in the latest errata (plus cost of the swarm). If a swarmanoid wants to be able to "scout" with portions of it's body, it shouldn't be difficult. It would probably be Low cost to buy or replicate a few "backup" elements which could be used for such. The swarm could also just bring along a few Speck bots as part of itself.
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Madwand wrote:
Zyx wrote:
So, on a side note, does that mean a swarmoid morph with a radio booster implant can spread itself (potentially) over several kilometers?
Unless the swarm can localize it's thought to a part of the swarm (possibly with a ghostrider module), probably not. Speed-of-light delays at long ranges probably become significant enough that a brain becomes problematic to emulate at real time. .
Light crosses kilometres faster than signals in a biological brain can go from one end of the skull to the other, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Considering you would be suffering wound penalties by spreading yourself while sleeved into a swarmaroid, I'd say using drones would be better. Imagine receiving direct sensory data for a whole kilometer all around you... and get ready for some stress damage ^^ It gives a whole new meaning to be "all over the place", though...
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Smokeskin wrote:
Light crosses kilometres faster than signals in a biological brain can go from one end of the skull to the other, so that shouldn't be an issue.
This is a matter of judgement, I agree, but I disagree that light-speed lag would not be a factor. We're not talking about sending signals across the brain; we might be talking about inter-neural connections here. A lag of a few extra nanoseconds (added to whatever additional lag there already is for translating the signal to and from a radio) multiplied by trillions of neurons firing every second could add up to some serious time-lag. It's possible a specific brain simulation architecture could overcome this, though. Figure out how to properly modularize the brain and you only have to worry about brain damage when someone accidentally steps on one of your swarm, or you get shot (and redundancy could compensate for this too). It's hard to say where EP technology is on this, but apparently the brain is still something of a mystery so my suspicion is you don't want to mess with your mind too much by spreading it out across kilometers.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Zyx wrote:
So, on a side note, does that mean a swarmoid morph with a radio booster implant can spread itself (potentially) over several kilometers?
I would allow it, although it will make the swarmanoid units fairly easy to detect with the right equipment. The delays are indeed fairly short: in a brain it takes around 2-20 milliseconds (20 cm divided by 10-100 m/s neural conduction) to send signals across, which would correspond to a maximum spread of 600 km. Note that if you use simspace acceleration then it shrinks to 10 km :-)
Extropian
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Zyx wrote:
Thank you! That clears things up. So, on a side note, does that mean a swarmoid morph with a radio booster implant can spread itself (potentially) over several kilometers?
Sure can, but there will be many problems inherent with doing so: [list][*]Doing this basically creates a personal mesh network, with every individual unit of the swarm communicating with all other units en masse. This will create a large amount of easily-detected radio waves as all your individual components stay in synch. Anyone listening in on various frequencies is bound to eventually stumble upon your "brain waves". [*]A jammer can be used to tear down this network, which could have detrimental effects on you. Imagine having a chunk of your brain temporarily removed... that's what will happen if someone jams regions of your swarm, preventing them from communicating with the greater whole. That's a big risk. [*]This practice is potentially costly and will reduce your mobility, as segments of the swarm must stay in range of a transmitter to communicate with the other segregated elements of the swarm. I would personally rule that without some signal amplifier, individual elements of the swarm only have a range of 500 meters open area range (20 meters in an urban environment), while together they can produce a signal going out 20 kilometers in range (1 kilometer in an urban environment). And a good signal amplifier isn't going to be portable enough for a microbug to haul. Moreover, I don't think a radio booster can be implanted... if it can, it most definitely couldn't be implanted in a bug-sized bot without taking a huge toll on its battery life.[/list]
Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: Nanotech and Swarms questions
Madwand wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
Light crosses kilometres faster than signals in a biological brain can go from one end of the skull to the other, so that shouldn't be an issue.
This is a matter of judgement, I agree, but I disagree that light-speed lag would not be a factor. We're not talking about sending signals across the brain; we might be talking about inter-neural connections here. A lag of a few extra nanoseconds (added to whatever additional lag there already is for translating the signal to and from a radio) multiplied by trillions of neurons firing every second could add up to some serious time-lag.
The hardware in our biological is EXCEPTIONALLY slow, both in transmission signal speed, latency and "clock frequency". Even by today's technological standard, it's laughable. If you're worried about the lag from radio signal transmission and translation, you'll think humans can't think at all if you study the abysmal performance of brain cells. Biology pretty much has only one trick up its sleeve: It's exceptionally good at miniaturization. This means it can cram in an extraordinary number of neurons in a small volume and establish a lot of connections between them. So even if everything runs really slow, the parallel processing power is incredible, to the degree that it'll probably take decades more before we can match it. Maybe biology has a few more advantages (analogue processing or having had a few billion years to run genetic algorithms on brain architecture - does anyone know?), but speed isn't one of them.