Enhanced vision and active sensors

Thu, 2012-05-24 20:53

#2

TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

The emitter is a different enhancement in the book. In the reality of the game world the two are probably marketed together. If you space google "enhanced vision" I'd bet an ad for a t-ray emitter would pop up.

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Thu, 2012-05-24 21:28

#3

Zyx

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Note though that if you have one guy with a t-ray emitter and the guy next to him has enhanced vision, the t-ray emitter will give them both a line of sight though nearby walls (I think). Its like having a flashlight, at least as I understand it.

Thu, 2012-05-24 21:42

#4

Azathoth

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Ok, cool, that's exactly how I understand it too. I guess it just never occurred to me before that you could have the ability to see t-rays without having the emitter, bcs like you said, usually they're probably packaged together. Thanks a lot guys!

Thu, 2012-05-24 22:04

#5

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

you have very good example of R-Ray and T-rays vision in a bunch of recent games -Deus Ex Human Revolution -Syndicate -Ghost Recon Future Soldier

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Thu, 2012-05-24 22:24

#6

Azathoth

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Thanks! I actually already added Deus Ex to my rental queue for a little futuristic inspiration. :)

Fri, 2012-05-25 01:48

#7

Decivre

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

It's best to think of T-ray sensors as something akin to sonar. Sonar doesn't work until something makes a noise. The same is true with T-ray sensors... their "sound" is T-rays. And really when you think about it, this is true with all senses. Vision only works when there is light present. Olfactory senses only work where atmosphere is present. All senses require some form of "noise" to be able to discern what your surroundings are.

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Fri, 2012-05-25 03:41

#8

Smokeskin

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

One thing to remember about t-rays is that they're blocked by metal. Any sort of metal film will block it, which is very easy to incorporate into walls and clothing. Don't expect to look into people's living quarters or check out the interior of a guard station with it. For tactical usage, you also have to consider that to anyone with enhanced vision, turning on your t-ray emitter is like turning on a flashlight, and anything you can see through, they can see you through. You give away your position, and you'd better hope they don't have weaponry able to pierce whatever is between you and them. For combat what you'd want are something like expendable flying robot sensor platforms that provide t-ray illumination without making you a target - it's the EP version of holding your flashlight with your arm stretched fully out to your side/above your head so incoming fire won't have as high a chance of hitting you.

Fri, 2012-05-25 17:38

#9

Xagroth

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Please, people, remember not everything was designed only for war purposes... Some implants have uses in engineer projects, exploration, safety concerns... That kind of stuff that means not everything revolves around guns, blood and death. So if you find somebody with enhanced vision, or even dermal armor, do not automatically assume you are facing a combatant. This ad has been sponsored by the NPC Welfare Organization, a Titanian microcorp with close ties to NPC-PC INC. Remember, resleeving is expensive, and noncombatants have loved ones. Do not make people suffer, do not waste resources.

Fri, 2012-05-25 18:32

#10

Pyrite

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Smokeskin wrote:
One thing to remember about t-rays is that they're blocked by metal. Any sort of metal film will block it, which is very easy to incorporate into walls and clothing. Don't expect to look into people's living quarters or check out the interior of a guard station with it.

Actually, the rules are pretty clear what it takes to fully block a T-ray, which is 50 points between structure and armor. I figure outer hulls may have that, but interior walls probably don't quite, meaning that you can usually see through 1 wall, but not 2. The fact that it doesn't penetrate human skin makes for a much better (if macabre) method of securing your walls, anyway.

—

'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien

Fri, 2012-05-25 20:12

#11

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

While playing Ghost Recon I wondered something with TacNet and AR e-tags, is it possible to make synch shots? each player match a target, then roll the die all simultaneously and hopefully smoke the guys

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Fri, 2012-05-25 22:29

#12

TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

I'd say so. Mechanically the PCs hold their actions for the same initiative tick and then they let fly. With TacNet you could use indirect fire and covering fire at the same time too. Forcing the enemy to change position would be good too. Position your gunner near the enemy but out of the line of fire then have someone else, someone in a heavier morph or with high Fray, drop a charge or nanoswarm on their position to force them out. Gunner uses a held action to shred whatever comes out. Again, doesn't even need eyes on the target: indirect fire works just fine.

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Sat, 2012-05-26 03:03

#13

Smokeskin

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Pyrite wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
One thing to remember about t-rays is that they're blocked by metal. Any sort of metal film will block it, which is very easy to incorporate into walls and clothing. Don't expect to look into people's living quarters or check out the interior of a guard station with it.
Actually, the rules are pretty clear what it takes to fully block a T-ray, which is 50 points between structure and armor. I figure outer hulls may have that, but interior walls probably don't quite, meaning that you can usually see through 1 wall, but not 2. The fact that it doesn't penetrate human skin makes for a much better (if macabre) method of securing your walls, anyway.

So when the rules say that skin and metal blocks t-rays, you're ruling that skin stops it but metal takes 50 points of structure or armor? Or are you suggesting to secure walls with skin worth 50 points of armor too? ;)

Sat, 2012-05-26 03:18

#14

Decivre

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Quincey Forder wrote:
While playing Ghost Recon I wondered something with TacNet and AR e-tags, is it possible to make synch shots? each player match a target, then roll the die all simultaneously and hopefully smoke the guys

Not only is it possible, I have had it happen several times in my campaigns. When one of my playgroups got in trouble in the PC, one thing I introduced them to is the PC equivalent of the SWAT team. They utilized cauterizer rounds (heat-based reactive ammo), and synch up a four-round salvo to render any target limbless. The nice thing about this tactic is that it is nonlethal, so they need not fear using it on bystanders... all innocent civilians are mended free of charge. Once I let them see it being done by NPCs, my players quickly integrated the tactic into their own combat techniques.

—

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Sat, 2012-05-26 03:51

#15

Xagroth

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Quincey Forder wrote:
While playing Ghost Recon I wondered something with TacNet and AR e-tags, is it possible to make synch shots? each player match a target, then roll the die all simultaneously and hopefully smoke the guys

I think I remember reading somewhere that tacnet's integrants could act as "spotters" for other team members, marking the target and relying the data to the sniper/artillery toon. Or I might be mixing some stuff from Deathwatch...

Sat, 2012-05-26 12:42

#16

Azathoth

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Ok, here's another question related to sensors: Invisibility cloak is effective from UV through microwaves, and visible to radar and x rays. But the book groups microwaves and radiowaves under radar (so does panopticon, I believe). Are there any microwave -only- sensors that would be able to detect invisibility cloaks, or is it always effectively radar?

Sat, 2012-05-26 16:02

#17

TadanoriOyama TadanoriOyama's picture

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

I believe their effectively the same thing. The cloak eats anything lower than UV, which includes t-rays and most other convention forms of vision. So to spot one you just need some x-rays. Here's a graphic wave diagram from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spectre_Terahertz.svg Basically anything below the purple line doesn't work.

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Sat, 2012-05-26 16:29

#18

Pyrite

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Smokeskin wrote:
So when the rules say that skin and metal blocks t-rays, you're ruling that skin stops it but metal takes 50 points of structure or armor? Or are you suggesting to secure walls with skin worth 50 points of armor too? ;)

The rules say that T-Rays are absorbed by water and metal as well as atmosphere, which is why they are not natively present on planets. In a later sentence, it says that T-Rays 'do not penetrate skin', so they can't be used to tell what implants someone has. The two sentences clearly aren't describing the same 'hard stop' effect. So yes, the rules do suggest that if you were to somehow grow a layer of human skin inside your walls, they'd be T-ray proof regardless of durability or armor.

—

'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien

Sat, 2012-05-26 16:54

#19

Decivre

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Azathoth wrote:
Ok, here's another question related to sensors: Invisibility cloak is effective from UV through microwaves, and visible to radar and x rays. But the book groups microwaves and radiowaves under radar (so does panopticon, I believe). Are there any microwave -only- sensors that would be able to detect invisibility cloaks, or is it always effectively radar?

I think that was a typo. It should say that it is visible to [i]radio[/i] and x-rays. Radio is lower in the electromagnetic spectrum than microwave is. So I would assume that was intended to say radio, and should probably be reported for future errata.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sat, 2012-05-26 19:56

#20

Deadite

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Decivre wrote:
Not only is it possible, I have had it happen several times in my campaigns. When one of my playgroups got in trouble in the PC, one thing I introduced them to is the PC equivalent of the SWAT team. They utilized cauterizer rounds (heat-based reactive ammo), and synch up a four-round salvo to render any target limbless. The nice thing about this tactic is that it is nonlethal, so they need not fear using it on bystanders... all innocent civilians are mended free of charge.

Consider this 'borrowed' for my game, Decivre. Thanks! :D

Sun, 2012-05-27 03:10

#21

Smokeskin

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Pyrite wrote:
Smokeskin wrote:
So when the rules say that skin and metal blocks t-rays, you're ruling that skin stops it but metal takes 50 points of structure or armor? Or are you suggesting to secure walls with skin worth 50 points of armor too? ;)
The rules say that T-Rays are absorbed by water and metal as well as atmosphere, which is why they are not natively present on planets. In a later sentence, it says that T-Rays 'do not penetrate skin', so they can't be used to tell what implants someone has. The two sentences clearly aren't describing the same 'hard stop' effect. So yes, the rules do suggest that if you were to somehow grow a layer of human skin inside your walls, they'd be T-ray proof regardless of durability or armor.

Sure they'd be t-ray proof, just like they'd be with a metal film layer. The rules say metal blocks t-rays, physics tells us a metal film is enough. Not much more to it really.

Sun, 2012-05-27 05:36

#22

Jaberwo

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

I did some thinking about SWAT-like teams too, but for the Titanian Commonwealth. Their methods are a bit less.. extreme. ;-) In particular they not only try to avoid harming inoccent bystanders physically, but also try to keep the stress low for them. The main weapon used by the AKS (Politiets Aktionsstyrke) is a Freezer spiked with disassembler swarms programmed to destroy any weapons they find and an injector microswarm loaded with a sedating drug. The same mixture is used in a special drone-based delivery system which can rapidly fill a volume with said mixture plus a nanoswarm carrying chemicals that harden into a very strong coating when brought together, and a bit of smartdust. When the AKS wants to assault a building or room, they get their Swarms in and everyone in the traget area who gets detected by the smartdust which rapidly covers every surface and fills every open space, will be imobilised by the coating swarm which selectivly releases its chemicals at the joints of any morph present. The catch-all version of the injector microswarm has a less potent sedative, which just serves to keep people from panicking in their helpless state. Also, before releasing the mixture a small data package is send out to the traget area informing everyone of the imminent assault and apologizing for the inconvenience. It also contains some vids in which the mascot of the Nyhavn Police Department explains the procedure of the AKS and recommends using the provided VR-programms until the situation is resolved. Every muse of the people present has one or two seconds to inform the AKS of any special problems their owners may have, then they start indiscriminate jamming, while using encrypted soundwaves and other non-radio means to communicate.

Mon, 2012-05-28 04:51

#23

Pyrite

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Smokeskin wrote:
Sure they'd be t-ray proof, just like they'd be with a metal film layer. The rules say metal blocks t-rays, physics tells us a metal film is enough. Not much more to it really.

You mentioned in physics, so I actually had to look it up. Annoyingly, in the real world you're right as far as I can tell. This annoys me because the book's description is far less clear, which led to my confusion. Pretty much every source I could find said that T-Rays couldn't penetrate metal or water at all. By a strict reading of the rules, this either isn't the case in Eclipse Phase or just isn't described very clearly.

EP Core Rulebook Page 302 wrote:
T-rays occur naturally, but terahertz sensors normally require an emitter as they are absorbed by atmosphere (as well as water and metal)

This sentence mentions metal offhand, in the same context in which it mentions water and atmosphere. If you interpret this passage, which is the only one to mention metal in reference to T-Rays, as meaning that any of these things block them, then any amount of [i]air[/i] should block a T-ray, making them functionally useless outside of vacuum. The only part that is worded in such a 'full stop' way is the following sentence:

EP Core Rulebook Page 302 wrote:
T-rays do not penetrate skin, so are ineffective for locating implants.

which if it were in following with your interpretation and our current usage of T-Rays, should read something like 'T-rays do not penetrate skin or metal, so are ineffective for locating implants in biomorphs or augmentations in synthmorphs, and cannot be used to see through the metal walls of most habitats.' So basically either our Eclipse Phase descendants are using a different, more powerful T-ray that can image through at least some amount of metal, or the passage should be rewritten for more clarity so outside research isn't required to fully understand the limitations of a fairly common gear item.

—

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Mon, 2012-05-28 07:26

#24

Smokeskin

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

I agree that entry is worded unclearly but the t-ray emitter list what it can penetrate, and metal isn't listed, as well as the Panopticon sensor list that explicitly lists blocking by metal, skin and water. I can't imagine the EP writers intended t-rays to penetrate metal film.

Mon, 2012-05-28 17:59

#25

Pyrite

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Smokeskin wrote:
I agree that entry is worded unclearly but the t-ray emitter list what it can penetrate, and metal isn't listed, as well as the Panopticon sensor list that explicitly lists blocking by metal, skin and water. I can't imagine the EP writers intended t-rays to penetrate metal film.

[s]Annoyingly, my copy does not mention metal at all on page 34, where the Tetrahertz sensor type is listed. Was this erratad?[/s] Oh, it's on the chart on page 159. Well, that makes things much simpler. Arrg it is annoying to have been wrong.

—

'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien

Tue, 2012-05-29 04:05

#26

Deadite

Re: Enhanced vision and active sensors

Pyrite wrote:
Oh, it's on the chart on page 159. Well, that makes things much simpler. Arrg it is annoying to have been wrong.

The chart is on p161 of my copy of the pdf, in case anyone else can't find it. :)