So assuming there isn't a hard cap, eventually you'd reach the point where entire universes are your's to play with. I got to thinking, I'd probably endure existing to that point, what would a me at that level be like. What would I do now that even knowledge is meaningless since we are beyond constraints of physics. Well obviously make new universes. I mean nothing else is even worth your effort. Most likely one that could evolve life forms capable of reaching the singularity, have them elevate to our level cause we'd probably maintain our social nature. I might even keep a copy of my lesser self, place it among a sapient race to see how things unfold.
Of course I am also kind of guy to want all things to continue. So I'd set up an ethereal existence for when a creature dies. An afterlife basically. Then watch things unfold.
As I conducted this thought experiment I thought to myself "wait a second... all of this sounds suspiciously familiar"
Granted I know by its definition the singularity is beyond our ability to understand, however I do not believe that means the complete loss of what we are. Like our inherent desire to socialize or to study other life. What if its all just a giant cycle of a species growing and evolving then creating a new reality for it to all happen again. Perhaps until we are individuals who are realities upon themselves now defined by differences not of ourselves but of the realities from which birthed us and the new ones we create.
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What would you do as a class 5 civilization?
Sun, 2012-05-13 04:14
#1
Aeroz
What would you do as a class 5 civilization?
Sun, 2012-05-13 09:01
#2
Arenamontanus
Re: What would you do as a class 5 civilization?
(It is worth noting that the *definition* of the singularity doesn't exist - there are several related concepts, and it is by no means certain that things are impossible to predict beyond it)
Even if you haven't taken over all of the universe you can run very big world simulations. And if you think entities inside can be conscious, then you already have nested universes. Nick Bostrom's simulation argument suggests that if this is possible, then we are likely to already live in a simulated universe:
http://www.simulation-argument.com/
http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
Actually manipulating entire universes involves some very odd issues. Besides the headaches of acausal trade and extortion ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/5rs/the_aliens_have_landed - but now across universes, like this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/6ka/aibox_experiment_the_acausal_trade_argument/ ) there is the problem that you are not just dealing with mere uncountable infinite sets of versions of you in parallel worlds, but across possible universes. If we live in a Tegmark level 4 multiverse (all mathematical objects exist), then there is no way of assigning probability to different worlds because they are too many (set theory actually breaks down).
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Sun, 2012-05-13 13:43
#3
Aeroz
Re: What would you do as a class 5 civilization?
If we haven't completely mastered our own universe than we as a species have more pressing matters than toying with a glorified ant farm. Not to say there aren't those that will, but others will worry about mastering and escaping the confines of our own universe. More importantly at that stage a simulation is not the most logical option. By that I mean an experiment purely for study. What I propose is an application of that science. Creating a reality as a way of culturing new extra-dimensional intelligences. In other words, a divine reproduction system.
I would also argue against our world being a mere simulation. Not because I feel a being would not do it, but because our now is rather bland. You are talking about something way beyond the singularity. Why waste the resources to play with something as trivial as a .8 civilization. It would equate to us using our most powerful supercomputer to simulate a culture of amoeba. By the time a civilization is advanced enough to reproduce a moment in time it is beyond the point of caring. Also unless it was required for the experiment you would design it so realization of the experiment was not possible. The specimen realizing it is being observed invalidates the validity of the experiment. Same for capacity to build simulations of our own, since that becomes a processing nightmare.
Though I am aware part of it is that I do not wish for my existence to be voided and have no value since the destruction of reality is a forgone conclusion. But I honestly do not think humanity would do this. If we are that advanced, than most likely those running the experiment are themselves originally emulated intelligence, just ones running in the physical world. To view our lives as having no value would mean they view their own existence the same. additionally if one can run a simulation so perfectly you'd only need the one and as the argument states you wouldn't want embedded simulations so we'd have a 50/50 shot of being the original and not the duplicate.
Sun, 2012-05-13 15:38
#4
Aeroz
Re: What would you do as a class 5 civilization?
In any case, we have to play the odds. Its possible this is all fake, but there would have to be an original, a true reality. Even 1 in a million is better than zero. but I can tell you this much. I intend to do everything in my power to make sure that an emulated reality, especially one containing sentient life, is never created. No being should ever have such a trivial existence, one with no hope of advancement or growth. I just pray, because ultimately hoping is all we have, that people like me exist in some advanced civilization, that morals and ethics endure, that someone actually gives a crap about us.
-sighs- this is the only time "ignorance is bliss" is something I understand. and as a gnostic that is the most blasphemous thing to desire. Though if I am a simulation gnosticism, which preaches enlightenment through knowledge is flawed because its impossible to become enlightened. So kind of a catch-22
Sun, 2012-05-13 16:45
#5
Arenamontanus
Re: What would you do as a class 5 civilization?
Actually, Nick and others have found some rather compelling reasons for why simulations of now would be fairly common among the simulations done (most computer power will of course be devoted to entirely different pursuits by entities not interested in history). Basically, this point in history might well be where the exact dynamics of the singularity gets defined. Simulations of the far past will just give you the permutations of hunter-gatherer societies, while the far future will produce the fairly well understood recent history of the posthumans. But the period leading up to the singularity has lots of degrees of freedom and might end in a lot of different ways. If you as a civilisation want to understand how you came about and especially what the alternatives were, this is the period to experiment with.
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Sun, 2012-05-13 19:02
#6
Aeroz
Re: What would you do as a class 5 civilization?
Thats overestimating our progression. Look at this word, you cannot get it just by emulating every single human, but every living thing, including the processes which we observe. It would require a jupiter brain or other such computing device. Plus this is the point where we have records of this information. We dont need to know how we got here, we do know.
Besides, I know its a logical fallacy, but ultimately the reason to believe our reality, is reality is that if it is not then your existence is pointless. Less than pointless, your personal areas of study and research will accelerate us to the stopping point of the experiment and end all our lives. This hypothesis would mean a fate even worse than mere non-existence at the end of our lives. Then atleast we'd still advance our species. If this is all an experiment than even that small comfort is lost since we merely push ourselves closer to the conclusion. Advancing to a transhuman state is meaningless because the posthumans running the simulation will just end us once we reach it.
And dont tell me it means we should "enjoy now", there is no point in enjoying a now if in 100 subjective years the good I did was at best a foot-note to apathetic beings. Nor the idea that the living hell that is our world was intentionally constructed just to see how we'd handle dealing with it.
I cannot go on living, if annihilation is all that awaits all that is our universe. Might as well end it now, because in the end it would change nothing.
I thought transhumanism would be a ray of hope that continued existence was a reality, now I learn it just makes it more likely that there is an indifferent creator that merely views us as a disposable data point
I mean seriously why do you work towards transhumanism know that most likely all your work is for nothing?