Hi,
I'm pretty new to EP, but am familiar with the ideas of transhumanism. After reading the core book I had a question and started to think about it.
I already searched the forums, but didn't find the topic already. If there is one, please excuse me and link me to the thread.
My Question is: Is it possible to get a Seed A.I. self improving superintelligence using just biological parts?
My guess would be yes.
I see it like this:
First step: You map your brain via psychosurgery.
Second step: Clone your brain a million times.
Third step: Rebuild your brain with the cloned brain, using the cloned brains instead of neurons.
Fourth step: Sleeve an alpha fork in each and every of the brain-neurons.
What you would get is some kind of meta-consciousness, that is more than all your brains combined.
The self improving part would be possible if every of the brain-neurons ist linked to a psychosurgery-machine, so that they can be altered.
Prerequesite would also be, that your enforce (via psychosurgery) a loyality towards the project and suppress (via psychosurgery) the urge for personal freedom and rebellion.
Would that work?
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biological seed A.I.
Fri, 2012-03-30 16:12
#1
biological seed A.I.
Fri, 2012-03-30 18:53
#2
Re: biological seed A.I.
I covered this one already. Tissues would have to be hyperevolved to handle the amount of information processed in a super-intelligent brain. Cybernetic and synthetic parts are where it is currently at for this kind of feeback/dataload.
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Fri, 2012-03-30 18:58
#3
Re: biological seed A.I.
Now this is not to say that the EX virus COULD NOT do something like this being hyperevolved and coming from hyperevolved beings but as a general consensus about transhumanity. So far it is beyond our technological reach, all things considered.
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"And yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes. And slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us."
Fri, 2012-03-30 20:18
#4
Re: biological seed A.I.
how about a distributed intelligence betwen hundreds, thousands forks linked together in a VPN. several biological brains, and a few cyberbrains working as hubs, linking to other hub cyberbrains, linking several biological brains
About ten years ago, the french comic book writer Pécau wrote something like this in Travis' first "season"
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Sat, 2012-03-31 08:01
#5
Re: biological seed A.I.
I suspect that such a "cloud brain" would be terribly slow. It might possess vast power, but delays on brain-to-brain paths would be massive, as well as limitations of computational speed on the brains themselves (Heat limit - you can't go above 42 Celsius or proteins will denaturate; ATP transportation efficiency is limited; you will run out of chemical neurotransmitters if you use them too rapidly; myelin sheaths will dissolve because of the neurons firing too rapidly, etc.).
The best decision made by newly awakened biological Seed AI might be to switch from wet-ware to hardware as soon as possible.
But it's not necessarily a bad thing story wise. This state of powerful but slow intelligence my be desirable for the beings who use it:
- they want to slow themselves down and wait for a "better tomorrow".
- they want to solve some kind of problem that needs certain data collected over long period of time - for example orbit eccentricity of some group of celestial bodies;
- they prepare themselves for non-FLT space travel to another star system;
- this is their way to hide from other tranhumans - they might live in Jovian Republic and be afraid of being erased;
- they just enjoy this kind of "spirit communion";
- they want to switch to non-organic gear but don't have the resources right now.
OR they got infected by Watts-MacLeod and they are using some sort of psi effect to speed themselves up - but at the same time they are a kind of psionic array, very susceptible to outside influences. (And I mean OUT-outside - like 'some ETI or TITAN bastard-child living in the starless void' outside).
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Sat, 2012-03-31 07:55
#6
Re: biological seed A.I.
The slowness might also be a cultural thing
maybe even mystical in nature
I think of the Drummers of Neal Stephenson's DIAMOND AGE fame, in this case.
Another good inspiration for distributed bio seed AGI (BSAGI) would be Kuze's movement in GITS: The Individual Eleven.
This also brings another idea: the Stand Alone Complex. An techno-social experience among the the Brinkers seeking to emulate the Synergist evolve beyond its parameters, and its the experimenters who become the outlet of the experience, subverted to the BSAGI.
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Sat, 2012-03-31 08:30
#7
Re: biological seed A.I.
I'm no neurologist or biologist, but wouldn't the possibility to split the thinking to that many brains circumvent these limitations? Wouldn't it be possible to split it, so that each brain operates at optimum parameters?
The reason behind my idea was, that with all the fear about the TITANS and seed A.I.s in general, the idea of a completly biological super-intelligence without the technical aspects would be an idea that is almost bound to be thought. Because if it is based on a real human and there is no computers involved to change the way of human thinking, the chance of it going all postal on humanity is reduced. This is almost certain an illusion, but it maybe work. The motivation would be to build/evolve into something, that is on the same level as a seed A.I. (and so be able to fight them) but still human.
Sat, 2012-03-31 10:44
#8
Re: biological seed A.I.
Well yes, of course - this is the reason for the whole exercise to begin with. Some "thoughts" would be "too big" to be contained inside just single human brain. My point is that computational machine based on human neurons, on human biology, is terribly inefficient. The cost of running it, the sheer mass of it would have to be massive - by whole orders of magnitude greater, than "conventional" hardware. Considering the fact that transhumanity (and TITANs) have access to quantum computers, it might require millions of human brains to create network of comparable power.
I have my doubts whether such an entity would still be "human" in any conventional sense - except maybe the genetic one.
But that's not all - human brains can be hacked as well. Basilisk hacks can get you in the moment you look at some kind of light source (I imagine any light source would be sufficient - displays or monitors would be just faster).
Also human body can be hacked - TITANs learned that trick and applied it during the Fall.
Humans are just another system - you learn it's rules, you can alter it.
But the logic of having "one of ours" in God-AI Club might be appealing for some factions of Eclipse Phase. It's not like humanity didn't make any terrible mistakes earlier, is it? Who knows - maybe the Lost Generation and Futura project were a failed attempt to create something alike your organic AI? Maybe TITANs were as well - one may say that it takes a human to screw things up as horribly as TITANs did.
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Sat, 2012-03-31 12:37
#9
Re: biological seed A.I.
Biology is very slow compared to electronics. Signals move at 1-100 m/s, neurons fire at most a few hunded Hz and are at least several microns wide. Optical computers can move signals at near lightspeed, nanoelectronics switch on femtosecond timescales and can have nanometer-sized processors. While biology can be improved, there are fundamental limits to what neurons can do: ion channels, membrane potentials and similar stuff does not scale well.
That said, I think one can do biological superintelligences. It is just that it is a fairly inefficient way of doing it with no clear advantage except backwards compatibility and maybe aesthetics.
Here is what I can imagine some biotech singularity seekers to do: culture a *lot* of boosted cerebral cortex in tanks, linked to morphs and normal brains using mesh inserts. Use localized training to format it into useful cortical maps and behavioural loops. Enhance it via neurachem, multiple personalities and multitasking. It might not be as sharp as a software seed AGI, but it might have nice associative abilities. Of course, adding AGI coprocessing might make i even better once it has grown into a smart mind. Maybe the goal is to first make a solid biological superintelligence as template for software intelligence.
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Sun, 2012-04-29 17:43
#10
Re: biological seed A.I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_superconductor
Might make the Bio-Seed A.i more feasible.
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Mon, 2012-04-30 06:52
#11
Re: biological seed A.I.
There are plenty of examples (in literature) where a biologically-based computer is considered, if not more efficient to an electronic one, a great booster component. Also, it is usually regarded as being able to make lateral thinking or non-linear deductions (jumping from fact A to conclussion D without solving conclussions B and C).
Also, there is a difference between electronic AIs and biologically-based intelligences, and that would be the chemistry involved: an organic brain works both with electricity and chemicals, while a purely digital one only uses electrical signals.
This being said, we need to consider the thread's target: "biological SEED AI". So, is it possible to develop an artificial intelligence able to self-improvement the same way an electronic one can? As usual, we need to state a difference between Ego and Morph, or software and hardware. This being said, it stands to reason that a biological seed AI would require much more time to increase or improve its hardware, regardless of the improvements it can make to its software: essentially, the need to grow biological components is a bottleneck.
This suggests to me two scenarios: First, a group of transhumans in Eclipse Phase might find the idea of a seed AI whose improvement speed is somehow limited attractive, thus deciding to use it as a testbed for Seed AI research. Watts-McLeod capacity might come as a bonus...
Which leads us to the second scenario, where the Seed AI somehow managed to integrate the research group into a mass of biomechanical connections, using them to boost its performance (essentially, adding biomorphs as "expansion modules" for both memory and processing power). This rather disturbing behaviour might point to exurgent activity, thus granting Firewall's attention.
It comes to mind the possibility of a trap, where a bogus biologival Seed AI and some empty morphs are staged in order to attract a group of agents who, in case of knowing they will face a biologically-based async-exurgent threat, might decide the use of synthmorphs to be a wise option, allowing the trapperts to use some synthetic neutralyzing tactics to capture the team.
Mon, 2012-05-07 13:38
#12
Re: biological seed A.I.
You can't brute force intelligence anymore than the human brain has, if you make a biological processor larger than the human brain it actually gets dumber thanks to speed of light lag.
Sure you can parallel process stuff, but we already [b]do[/b] that, that's in a very real sense what society is a giant human distributed computer.
Basically, your bio super computer isn't gonna do anything humans don't do naturally. If you want a more efficient biological mind you'll have to make one, and it won't have the ease of programming a SEED A.I. relies on to do it's thing.
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Tue, 2012-05-15 03:23
#13
Re: biological seed A.I.
It's possible our friends the Synergists, or their splinter-colony the Neo-Synergists, are on their way to something like this already. The biggest threat, I think, would be whether they gain the ability to add new minds to the collective at an exponential rate. As it is, I think it might be harder for new members to adjust the longer the synergy keeps going.
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