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Probability Drives

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bRA1N-b0X bRA1N-b0X's picture
Probability Drives
Ever since I fell into Eclipse Phase's event horizon, I knew escape would be impossible. Admittedly, I am not as avid a hard-SF fan or follower, but many aspects of Eclipse Phase are too tantalizing not to explore and discuss. I could feel my meager intellect wilt and pale upon roaming the various threads on these forums. I have decided, for the most part, to give a wide berth to most of the subjects that I cannot claim much more than "intrigued layman" status, so I apologize for my generally ignorant flailing and constant state of wide-eyed and mystified curiosity. I do have questions and I do try to search the forums before asking anything, considering I'm new to all this, and not just Eclipse Phase. I think it's interesting how I feel slightly smarter just by mere association, and all of it having to do with a role-playing game. It's a rare ANYTHING that can so deftly disguise and intrigue, whilst also educating and enlightening. Well done! Anyway, I do have a specific point to this post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man%27s_War#Technology I have touched upon John Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series before and the link is specifically to tie in with my question(s). In particular, I am wondering about the Skip Drive. The gist of what I understand is universe-to-universe travel, basically leaving the universe of origin and "arriving" at a universe where the probability of their destination and other circumstances are made 100% true/real. Something to that effect. The process seems pretty simple, but the implications are enormous, of course. http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogspot.com/ The above link is to a series of vlogs and such by Rob Bryanton, whose "Imagining the Tenth Dimension" has been a matter of fascination for me over the course of quite a while. I am sure I understand very little, but any "magic" travel in one dimension typically involves a circumnavigation across the next dimension "up." To bypass any limitations to the fourth dimension, for instance, a means through the fifth dimension would enable apparently instantaneous travel across the fourth. The fifth dimension is described as a "probability" space in Bryanton's project. I'm being colloquial and there is probably a lot of information to sift through there, but the various reachable probabilities from any fourth dimensional state/point would be found across in the fifth dimension. Any sort of "probability drive" would be enabling "travel" to a possible universe where their destination is their true position. One second they are in this universe, the next the ship is wherever the new "true" location is. In a few ways this reminds me of the Improbability Drive in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and could likely have similar mind-boggling consequences when one is messing with things of this nature. If the drive can bring travelers to destinations they wish to go, why not universe where even better circumstances are the true? Why not a universe where they hold even greater dominion over reality through will alone? I suppose the device could be limited to positional states in space, limited by power use, or limited by probability interference through whatever one wants to say can do that. I would imagine the Skip Drive can only really touch on a "range" of probabilities. The farther away they want to go, the least likely they can reach from this 4-D point in 5-D probability-scape. More exotic realities would just be such a low probability, even to 0 perhaps, which would entail higher risk and/or higher power requirements than is even feasible no matter the circumstance. Of course, I don't even know what the technique would be to affect probability. Would this go beyond a quantum scale means of manipulation? Is this Planck Scale tinkering? I doubt it is as "easy" as gravitational or electromagnetic force wizardry. I suppose one could suggest wormholes or something. This might even be scarier than "mere" temporal and causal tampering. One thing, however, has me wondering a little further. In Frank Herbert's "Dune" books, the primary FTL means of travel is foldspace. Their means of FTL probability travel involves the use of higher consciousness. And, to some degree, if a number of quantum effects are based on observation, etc., then a consciousness may need to be involved in the process. If all those on the ship that is traveling were given only one probability to observe and collapse to actuality, would that then write their reality as being in that location, and be enough? A lot of relativity and probability effects would have some interesting connotations were consciousness be the missing factor to FTL travel. I am probably not being nearly as in-depth as may require, but I suppose this is a starting point for some of my wonderings...
Marek Krysiak Marek Krysiak's picture
Re: Probability Drives
Your ideas remind me of a book I’ve read – “Perfekcyjna niedoskonałość” (Perfect Imperfection) by Polish writer Jacek Dukaj. In the book the humanity is capable of shaping the time-space by non-gravitational means (it’s called “kraft”) – they can fold it, twist it, create Moebius-like space, slow down and speed up time locally; they even can create kind of sub-dimensions (“inclusions”) with pre-set physical constants. Those inclusions are used as hardware (“kraftware”) for their computers and AIs – minds operating inside those dimension can be faster than those operating in our universe because (for example) their speed of light is higher. And of course they use it for warfare as well – on of their best tricks is creating inclusion with highest possible time speed and putting inside a few military Seed AI-equivalents along with technological means, and giving them one order: “Kill each other as best as you can”. What you receive is kind of military Pandora’s box – little universe holding an entity who evolved for millions of years (of its time) to be an ultimate war machine. Then you open the box next to your opponent – and you run, run like hell. It’s a great cold war tool – because nobody’s crazy enough to actually unleash any of those machines. I don’t think anybody here (except for Extrasolar Angel) reads Polish, but just in case:
Spoiler: Highlight to view
The one time they _did_ use it, they actually destroyed the Milky Way galaxy. Yep. Every particle bigger than hydrogen nucleus collapsed and evaporated. Solar system survived though. They put it inside one of their inclusions and ran away.


Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Probability Drives
Marek, now I want to find a translated version of that book... You meanie... XD
Marek Krysiak Marek Krysiak's picture
Re: Probability Drives
Xagroth wrote:
Marek, now I want to find a translated version of that book... You meanie... XD
I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t think any translation exists. In fact I think the only text by Dukaj that was ever translated was a short story in some obscure anthology 20 years ago - which is all a great mystery for me, as Dukaj is one of the most popular Polish modern writers and is often called “the second Stanislaw Lem”. “Perfekcyjna niedoskonałość” is one of my favourite books, and my favourite “transhuman” novel – I like it even better than Egan’s works. I know it’s just a substitute but Wikipedia article about the book is quite comprehensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfekcyjna_niedoskona%C5%82o%C5%9B%C4%87 and there’s also a summary (seems quite detailed): http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2011/07/08/perfect-imperfectio... It’s just teeming with ideas and inspiration – really worth checking out.


Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Probability Drives
Thanks Marek, the summary has been... extremely interesting, and the wiki quite helpful. I must say I see paralelisms between the book's description in the summary and Eclipse Phase (Stahs... like the Jovian Republic...) and some of my pet ideas (that the closer to "perfection" you get, the more homogeneous you are, and thus there is a point in the technological advancement where several alien cultures would be very similar, if not identical... I mentioned that in the TITAN/AI thread, by the way). Sadly, most of its ideas are... impossible to implement in my current group of fellow RPG players. Leaving aside that almost all spanish RPG gamers I know prefer fantasy (or future-fantasy, like Star Wars), none I know would enjoy something as... unlimited. I don't tire of mentioning why Eclipse Phase ends without players around here: people seems really uncomfortable with the forking part of the setting (which I think is quite central to EP)...
Marek Krysiak Marek Krysiak's picture
Re: Probability Drives
bRA1N-b0X wrote:
I have touched upon John Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series before and the link is specifically to tie in with my question(s). In particular, I am wondering about the Skip Drive. The gist of what I understand is universe-to-universe travel, basically leaving the universe of origin and "arriving" at a universe where the probability of their destination and other circumstances are made 100% true/real. Something to that effect. The process seems pretty simple, but the implications are enormous, of course.
Travelling between universes does seem like a pretty big deal – as I understand it from your description, what you actually do is “actualising” yourself to the universe in which you are at the destination already, is that right? I reminds me of Greg Egan’s book “Quarantine” in which similar effect was used by a protagonist to do… well, to do basically anything that came to his mind, because “in some possible universe” it’s true. The main problem was that if he tried something like dodging a hail of bullets from automatic rifle and succeeded, there were also countless copies of him that didn’t make it. It’s all good and fun until _you_ are the one of those poor sods who got shot – and some different _you_ survived.
bRA1N-b0X wrote:
The above link is to a series of vlogs and such by Rob Bryanton, whose "Imagining the Tenth Dimension" has been a matter of fascination for me over the course of quite a while. I am sure I understand very little, but any "magic" travel in one dimension typically involves a circumnavigation across the next dimension "up." To bypass any limitations to the fourth dimension, for instance, a means through the fifth dimension would enable apparently instantaneous travel across the fourth. The fifth dimension is described as a "probability" space in Bryanton's project. I'm being colloquial and there is probably a lot of information to sift through there, but the various reachable probabilities from any fourth dimensional state/point would be found across in the fifth dimension. Any sort of "probability drive" would be enabling "travel" to a possible universe where their destination is their true position. One second they are in this universe, the next the ship is wherever the new "true" location is.
Thinking about extra dimensions is fun, but I don’t think that moderns science gives any hope of their actual existence – except for the super-tiny dimensions of the string theory. Extra dimensions would have to be very small – smaller than even the smallest of known particles, because otherwise we could observe unexplainable increases and decreases in amount of mass and energy in our three dimensions. We don’t observe any such thing - the law of conservation of mass is still in power. (Although it seems that in general relativity conservation of mass and energy is not a simple thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_general_relativity )
Xagroth wrote:
Thanks Marek, the summary has been... extremely interesting, and the wiki quite helpful. I must say I see paralelisms between the book's description in the summary and Eclipse Phase (Stahs... like the Jovian Republic...) and some of my pet ideas (that the closer to "perfection" you get, the more homogeneous you are, and thus there is a point in the technological advancement where several alien cultures would be very similar, if not identical... I mentioned that in the TITAN/AI thread, by the way). Sadly, most of its ideas are... impossible to implement in my current group of fellow RPG players. Leaving aside that almost all spanish RPG gamers I know prefer fantasy (or future-fantasy, like Star Wars), none I know would enjoy something as... unlimited. I don't tire of mentioning why Eclipse Phase ends without players around here: people seems really uncomfortable with the forking part of the setting (which I think is quite central to EP)...
What I really like about Eclipse Phase is that you can shape it to your needs – if your group feels uncomfortable about forking then they can play as Jovians or members of any other bio-conservative group or nation, and think about rest of the humanity (i.e. transhumans) as freaks. It’s your world and you can shape any way you want. I can relate to your complains about players preferring fantasy over sci-fi. I thing that fantasy is more accessible to majority (although I see _nothing_ accessible about D20 and it’s crazy piles of books filled with rules), as they already know it’s major themes from mythology, legends, movies, books, comics – sci-fi is not as well represented. Especially transhuman sci-fi with lots of complicated ideas you _have_ to understand before you even start playing the game. I don’t have such a hard time when introducing new people to Eclipse Phase for two reasons: 1) majority of my friends have already read some sci-fi (Usually something by Stanislaw Lem. His works are obligatory reading at schools, would you believe? Sci-fi ant schools.), and 2) the 2nd most popular (number 1 is D20) pen&paper RPG in Poland is “Neuroshima”: post-apo about fighting sentient machines who nuked the Earth – so not really all that far from EP...;) Still – when I start to talk about morphs, forking, cortical stacks etc. they tend to look at me with that curious look at their faces, as if I just grew a pair of bat wings and a bunch of tentacles to match… How popular is sci-fi in Spain? I think the only Spanish sci-fi I’ve read was “Lágrimas de luz” by Rafael Marín – but list of his novels on Wikipedia looks impressive. I guess somebody _does_ read those? I’m just curious – we all reportedly live in a global village, but we still don’t know that much about each other.


King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: Probability Drives
slightly off topic -but regarding the polish book. Just so you know,several forms of translation software technology exists now, so foreign language books isn't to much of a obstacle. It might be a bit convoluted to read them, but there are neat apps that are on the hand held that does a impressive job. Here is a youtube link, To give a example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2OfQdYrHRs
Marek Krysiak Marek Krysiak's picture
Re: Probability Drives
King Shere wrote:
slightly off topic -but regarding the polish book. Just so you know,several forms of translation software technology exists now, so foreign language books isn't to much of a obstacle. It might be a bit convoluted to read them, but there are neat apps that are on the hand held that does a impressive job. Here is a youtube link, To give a example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2OfQdYrHRs
Those are great tools. But they are also very imperfect – especially when translating languages form different linguistic groups. (Warning: I’m totally geeking out.) English is one of agglutinative languages – it’s got quite strict sentence structure, as word order is needed to distinguish which words are adjectives, which are verbs, which verbs are auxiliary etc. Word order matters. Polish is an inflective language – most parts of the sentence are given appropriate forms according to gender, number, person. Nouns have seven cases (Nominative, Genitive etc.) - word order is more a matter of style (although SVO order dominates) – very much like Latin. Those differences result in Polish->English translations (especially of longer sentences) being jumble of words in random places, because translating program can’t decide which word is object, which is subject etc. And it’s just the beginning. In Polish there are just three grammatical tenses (with past tense having perfective and imperfective verb forms) and only one conditional clause. There are no articles and personal pronouns are usually omitted. And so on, and so on. Differences are huge. Last but not least – Polish have relatively small speaker base (around 45 million worldwide) and is rarely used by foreigners (because it’s very hard to learn) – which means there’s relatively little incentive for creating translation tools. Still – even Google Translate _is_ pretty solid and usually makes only few errors per long sentence. It also reminds me of Peter Watts and his problems. For reasons unknown he’s become very popular in Poland soon after “Blindsight” was translated and published (as first of his books) - so popular in fact that for a time he apparently had nearly as many fans in Poland as in Canada and US. Now he’s often faced with a challenge of reading google-translated reviews, articles and interviews. Apparently it’s not as easy as it seems:) He was completely puzzled about someone calling his cat “turgid” – which was a result of translation-app screwing up with wordplay on a word “fantastic” – and thought his book took part in “best resume competition” when it was “best re-release”. (He was later assured that there’s nothing wrong or turgid about his cat. Such cat-related issues have to be handled with proper care:)). With this all being wrote – I’d still say it’s a good idea to try. In my opinion “Perfekcyjna niedoskonałość” is good enough book to read it even if only machine translation is available. I will make you cringe occasionally, but I think most of the time you should be able to understand 75-90% of the text. As with majority of things – what really matters is how much effort you are willing to put into something. Most people are not willing to strain themselves too much – but the fact that we all here, from all possible pastimes had chosen a brain-wrenching sci-fi RPG rather than drinking beer and watching TV… well, that fact got to account for something.


Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Probability Drives
Marek Krysiak wrote:
It also reminds me of Peter Watts and his problems. For reasons unknown he’s become very popular in Poland soon after “Blindsight” was translated and published (as first of his books) - so popular in fact that for a time he apparently had nearly as many fans in Poland as in Canada and US.
I wouldn't say they are unknown. Poles like fatalistic and grim stories, and miss the Hard SF style similar to Lem. Both traits can be found in Watt's books :)
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