What happens if more than two forks have to be merged? During my very first session I forked myself four times and then suffered an exsurgent infection (at least I think it that's what it was, I never read the Game Information section in the core rulebook, so no spoilers! ;-) ) One ego remained unaffected and hunted down the other three while encountering some traumatic situations. To survive alone in the hostile environment (the others had given up on me and resleeved me from backup) I forked myself again two times and hold out until the rest of the team came back. So after everything was over, I was left with four traumatized egos (three by the survival thing, the infection and the horrors our enemies had produced, and one by the backup-resleeving and all the problems associated with "not knowing how/if you died" or rather "knowing that corrupted versions of yourself are running around") It's also worth mentioning that two of the forks virtually experienced the same, only from slightly different viewpoints, without acting. Another question our paranoid computer specialist and hobby-psychosurgeon asked last session: Can you merge two forks of yourself by yourself, i.e. without any help of another person? (I suggested that the fulltime psychosurgeon could make a few "adjustments" so he would adopt a more "flexible" attitude to ethics, if she got her hands on his ego one day)

nerdnumber1 wrote:

Janusfaced wrote:

I think it depends on the source of stress. If two merging ego suffer from different source, it is like merging an ego "without right arm" and an ego "without left arm". If you merge the two, the merged ego might be "without both arms" (with summed stress). But if the two suffer from same source, it is like merging an ego "without right arm" and an ego "without rignt hand". If you merge the two, the merged ego might be "without right arm" (with higher stress). That said, you can say stressed ego MUST be healed their stress to be merged. Yes, it takes time and makes difficult to merge stressed egos. But safe and less complicate. I am figuring most people won't merge unhealed egos, as long as they can afford psychotherapy.

Since resleeving a fork (even as an infomorph) can cause stress and any asyncs are likely to accrue stress naturally, added to the fact that stress takes hours to heal even with a psychiatrist and merging gets harder over time, I think that expecting 100% unstressed egos at time of merging is a bit unreasonable. Sure, if your fork goes completely nuts you are going to think twice about merging (maybe ending up quietly deleteing the file and trying to forget about it), but a few stress points would be difficult to even detect in roleplaying terms.

I forget fork resleeving stress. And as you say, no-Stress merging policy requires great care. So it might be fine if it is little problem. But, after a little math about fork instance, I think fork does need psychotherapy before merging. Belows are my calculation. -------- A person with better-than-average aptitudes (20) creates a beta fork and instanced. The fork has aptitudes at 15 (-5 as a beta fork) and TT is 6. The fork must make a Alienation Test and a Continuity Test, BEFORE any task its originating ego might give. At a Alienation Test (INT x 3) with -20 (fork) modifier, final Target Number become 25. The fork is likely to failure. And if they roll 85+ failure (60+ MoF) or 55+ critical failure (30+ MoF), Stress reaches TT 6 and causes Trauma. The average Stress is 2.59 and Trauma incidence rate is 18%. At a Continuity Test (WIL x 3), Target Number is 45 but there is 2 SV as a fork. So if they roll 85+ failure (40+ MoF), total Stress reaches TT 6 and causes Trauma. The average Stress is 2.5 and Trauma incidence rate is 15%. After two test, the average Stress become 5.09 and Trauma incidence rate become 30.3%. -------- In short words, forks are likely to have several Stress point and more than few have some Trauma. If you merge them, will you have their Stress and Trauma? Who are dare to take such danger, with your own ego? That said, many people in EP universe use forks in everyday jobs. I sure I miss something, but I don't sure what I miss. They are my ideas. 1: my calculation is wrong. But where? 2: fork users have much higher INT and WIL (30+?) so their fork have less Stress and less likely to have Trauma. 3: bad forks are deleted until a fine fork is made. So think about only the best, don't think about average or worse case. 4: merged ego won't inherit any Stress or Traumas. So don't mind about merging with severely traumatized fork.

Smokeskin wrote:

Forks only take Continuity stress if they're loaded from backup, and though the rules aren't 100% clear on it I don't read it as anything but alpha forks taking stress.

Which brings up an entirely different set of horrors. Beta Forks can be created by taking an active Alpha infomorph and trimming them down. So while you avoid the jarring shock of a continuity break, you still get to have a version of your own mind ripped apart piece by piece in real-time. Although not governed by the rules, I don't think it is particularly difficult to argue that that itself might provoke stress.

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1: my calculation is wrong. But where?

Nope, that sounds about right. It is actually, potentially, worse than that. Remember that during the creation of Beta/Delta forks, the creator has to roll Psychosurgery. If they suffer MoF the resultant fork can suffer from even greater amounts of stress.

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2: fork users have much higher INT and WIL (30+?) so their fork have less Stress and less likely to have Trauma.

Doubtful. 15 is the average, 20 is high, 30+ is extraordinary, even by transhuman standards. Not very likely that there are enough such individuals to provoke Beta Forks being regarded as 'common'.

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3: bad forks are deleted until a fine fork is made. So think about only the best, don't think about average or worse case.

This is what we ended up with in my universe. Skilled psychosurgeons are extremely well regarded, and constantly employed, by people who keep active forks of themselves. People have Beta Forks professionally created at clinics (both online and physical). Mail order Fork creation is handled with the same strict security regulations that Ego transmission enjoys, so people tend to be content with providing Alpha copies of their Ego to such professionals. Adds a little bit of ickyness to forkers as well. All well and good making the occasional Beta Fork to do your admin work. A little bit different if, to get that particular fork, you have to have your favoured clinician run through a half dozen or so 'off' copies to get your half sane version. ~ Yeah, the forking rules, combined with the high stress environment that Alienation/Continuity tests provokes tends to go against the standard fiction of people recklessly throwing forks all over the place. I quite like it this way, myself. But then my universes' transhumans are seething powder kegs of barely controlled crazy that only really function due to constant access to expensive therapy and drug programs. Its the US' drug culture taken to a horrible, terrible extreme.

nerdnumber1 wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

Smokeskin wrote:

Forks only take Continuity stress if they're loaded from backup, and though the rules aren't 100% clear on it I don't read it as anything but alpha forks taking stress.

Which brings up an entirely different set of horrors. Beta Forks can be created by taking an active Alpha infomorph and trimming them down. So while you avoid the jarring shock of a continuity break, you still get to have a version of your own mind ripped apart piece by piece in real-time. Although not governed by the rules, I don't think it is particularly difficult to argue that that itself might provoke stress.

I would hope that neural pruning was done on an innactive back-up, not a conscious mind, before it was "turned on" so to speak, for the piece of mind of everyone involved. This way your fork "wakes up" as a beta, never having been an active alpha, and you don't have to savage a living copy of you. Cleaner, more moral and more comfortable for everyone involved. Think of how you would react if your last memory was copying your ego to prune into a beta and then found that you were on the wrong end of the psychosurgy tools. I'm guessing the fuss (and screaming) would dissuade the other you from cutting up your mind (or cause some serious stress on the Alpha's part).

Agreed, I was making a counterpoint on Continuity checks. If performed as you write, they would need to roll Continuity when they are first instanced (they are being restored from an inactive file). However the rules say that it can be done either way. Which is kinda squicky.

Smokeskin wrote:

CodeBreaker wrote:

Agreed, I was making a counterpoint on Continuity checks. If performed as you write, they would need to roll Continuity when they are first instanced (they are being restored from an inactive file). However the rules say that it can be done either way. Which is kinda squicky.

Look at page 273, only alpha forks have to make Alienation and Continuity tests. No such thing is listed for beta or delta forks. I guess only alpha forks have the capacity to be really bothered by these things. Ruleswise, for alpha forks it is also clearly stated that you only take continuity tests if you're copied from backup, but I admit it makes little sense compared to the normal procedure for sleeving as an informorph.

Yeah, nothing there says that they don't need to roll Continuity. Unless I am missing something? There is a lack of rules specifically saying they do. But there is also a lack of rules saying they need to roll Alienation or Integration, but they still do. You are still instancing the fork from an offline copy to an online copy. You still roll Continuity if that egos continuity has been broken. Also, even if they *don't* need to roll Continuity, they still have to, just earlier. 'New alpha forks must make an Alienation Test (p. 272), and possibly a Continuity Test (p. 272) if copied from a backup.' So you would have to roll Continuity before you have an Alpha fork to prune anyways.