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Guardian Angels

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Sat, 2012-03-17 02:08

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Guardian Angels

I'm currently working with a player who wants to be the 'drone guy' for our group, and I trying to set him up with some blueprints and drones to be used. I looked at the bots in the book, and I'm a bit astonished by the Guardian Angel stats. They're more durable than a splicer, get Neurachem, armor, and enhanced senses by the boatloat, very high mobility, enhanced reflexes..and for what? Moderate cost? What exactly are these things like? How big are they? I sort of thought they were smallish (ie, maybe toaster sized to housecat sized), but the amount of raw durability they have suggests otherwise. Can someone put guns on them, or arms that can use guns? I'm inclined to say yes, but am unsure about how bit it is and what problems it might have attempting to use guns or arms. What is a good cost / stats for a typical "combat drone" (ie, a flying thing with a seeker pistol or an SMG), and a civilian version (ie, possible to create, sans weapon, in a locked fabber)? And what sort of policies might I see toward drones flying around in a city (on Mars, or in a habitat) - from both local officials and people on the street?

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Sat, 2012-03-17 21:41

NewAgeOfPower NewAgeOfPower's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

Nothing without at least Speed 2 should be in combat, in my opinion, and I see the writers of EP agreed. A small but compact object can be made more durable than a long, thin object- think of a brick of metal vs a stick of wood. Biomorphs are usually quite fragile compared to well made synthetic machinery (although, my custom male Fury models are tougher than most Reapers :D) Stock Splicers are like your average Joe today- squishy ,unarmored, unhardened, and completely unsuited for the ravages of war. ____________________________________ I do agree with you though, those stats are ludicrous for the price of Moderate. You ARE the GM, right? You have final say in price, etc. In your situation, I would rule EP writer error, and that they are actually priced High, instead of moderate. Otherwise you might see your player having a flotilla of these things for pennies on the dollar. Assuming he takes max negative traits, 0 extra Mox (which is, frankly, suicidal), or aptitudes (not wise either...) and sleeves in a flat, he could theoretically buy 350 Guardian Angels during character creation... 350 (!) Setting price to High brings that number down to a more manageable 70... Of course, a devious GM could have TITAN AIs turn them against the players during an interesting adventure... >)

—

As mind to body, so soul to spirit. As death to the mortal man, so failure to the immortal. Such is the price of all ambition.

Sat, 2012-03-17 23:36

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

NewAgeOfPower wrote:
Nothing without at least Speed 2 should be in combat, in my opinion, and I see the writers of EP agreed. A small but compact object can be made more durable than a long, thin object- think of a brick of metal vs a stick of wood. Biomorphs are usually quite fragile compared to well made synthetic machinery (although, my custom male Fury models are tougher than most Reapers :D) Stock Splicers are like your average Joe today- squishy ,unarmored, unhardened, and completely unsuited for the ravages of war. ____________________________________ I do agree with you though, those stats are ludicrous for the price of Moderate. You ARE the GM, right? You have final say in price, etc. In your situation, I would rule EP writer error, and that they are actually priced High, instead of moderate. Otherwise you might see your player having a flotilla of these things for pennies on the dollar. Assuming he takes max negative traits, 0 extra Mox (which is, frankly, suicidal), or aptitudes (not wise either...) and sleeves in a flat, he could theoretically buy 350 Guardian Angels during character creation... 350 (!) Setting price to High brings that number down to a more manageable 70... Of course, a devious GM could have TITAN AIs turn them against the players during an interesting adventure... >)

What I ended up doing was dropping the GA's Durability to 25, and offering a [HIGH] cost version that had the full Durability and was big enough to mount larger weapons. That seems to fulfill the requirements nicely.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Sun, 2012-03-18 07:21

Dr. Black

Re: Guardian Angels

I envisage Guardian Angels in the size of a box for cookies (one of the metal ones, thats approximately the same size as a toster) maybe a bit larger. Gnats are described as “small” and Guardian Angels are “similar” to Gnats, the are likely not much larger. When I am the GM, I would allow the external mounting of small weaponry, like pistols or stunners on them. The rules for syntmorphs apply, i. e. the cost for a mount as given in robotic enhancements. Larger weapons would add to much wight. I have not looked at the stats in detail, but if the PC overdue it, ask them if the want face a few drones with sniper riffles next time.

Sun, 2012-03-18 19:43

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

Dr. Black wrote:
I envisage Guardian Angels in the size of a box for cookies (one of the metal ones, thats approximately the same size as a toster) maybe a bit larger. Gnats are described as “small” and Guardian Angels are “similar” to Gnats, the are likely not much larger.

Actually, they are compared to gnats in behavior rather than size. The point of a guardian angel is to be a mobile watchdog, ever on the lookout for threats posed against the person they are guarding. They don't have any weapons, but any perceived threat is likely immediately sent to the inserts of their charge, informing them that they need to take cover or flee, or informing their entourage to prepare weapons. I don't think they are capable of housing weapons, however. They are a decked-out sensor bot, and those sensors likely take up most of the room within its chassis. It's designed for detection and alert, not for defense. I picture it being the size of a large model helicopter today, which is pretty big, but only about knee-high when set on the ground. I doubt it can have weapons, and the lack of weapons is probably why it can afford to have such a massive sensor suite, and a decent amount of durability and armor. In comparison, the gnat is probably the size of a small model helicopter, or one of those toy ones you can buy at radio shack. Pretty damn small, comes up to your ankle on the ground. Hence the heavily reduced capabilities... it simply has no room for anything else.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Sun, 2012-03-18 21:01

NewAgeOfPower NewAgeOfPower's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

Decivre wrote:
Actually, they are compared to gnats in behavior rather than size. The point of a guardian angel is to be a mobile watchdog, ever on the lookout for threats posed against the person they are guarding. They don't have any weapons, but any perceived threat is likely immediately sent to the inserts of their charge, informing them that they need to take cover or flee, or informing their entourage to prepare weapons. I don't think they are capable of housing weapons, however. They are a decked-out sensor bot, and those sensors likely take up most of the room within its chassis. It's designed for detection and alert, not for defense. I picture it being the size of a large model helicopter today, which is pretty big, but only about knee-high when set on the ground. I doubt it can have weapons, and the lack of weapons is probably why it can afford to have such a massive sensor suite, and a decent amount of durability and armor.

That would explain the Moderate cost, but why Neurachem (or cyberneurachem or whatever the bot has) if its not armed? Its pretty marginal a mod in that case then...

—

As mind to body, so soul to spirit. As death to the mortal man, so failure to the immortal. Such is the price of all ambition.

Sun, 2012-03-18 21:43

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

NewAgeOfPower wrote:
That would explain the Moderate cost, but why Neurachem (or cyberneurachem or whatever the bot has) if its not armed? Its pretty marginal a mod in that case then...

Actually, it does have minor armaments. As a bot, it can still charge and collide with targets, and has eelware so that it can stun and electrocute people. Furthermore, there are actions that a bot can handle without the need for actually attacking. Acting as a spotter for indirect attacks, rapidly switching between view modes and angles, sending out wireless signals to activate other combat drones, synchronize information in a tactical network, etc.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Mon, 2012-03-19 08:22

Xagroth

Re: Guardian Angels

If you want a precise definition, I'd say that the guardian angels are support/intelligence drones. While the eelware and neurachem allows you to use them in combat to attack, I think that would be a waste. Personally, I'd use them in tandem with a more durable, fast (as in more movement, 2 actions/round looks to me a good top for "adds") and maybe with some other weaponry... hopefully weaponry that doesn't require ammo, or that can have lots of ammo in a small space (maybe a pistol, or even a shredder). Eelware seems like a very good compromise all things considered.

Mon, 2012-03-19 10:18

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

It does seem odd to me, though, that there aren't any standard security or military bots in the core book. The thing that we're trying to do is come up with some reasonable extrapolations for what that would look like. The eventual paradigm we settled on was this: We're using the Force-Value variant rules, so for us, having a durability of 40 on such a tiny thing simply didn't make any sense. I nerfed the standard GA's to have a durability of only 25, but kept the combat armor. I ruled that standard GA's really aren't big enough to carry anything bigger than a pistol, and required that a weapon mount and gyro-stabilization (both Moderate cost) be purchased for each one that would need a weapon. We also created a new GA variant, High cost, with an enlarged chassis that could mount weapons up to assault rifle size, and the full 40 durability.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Mon, 2012-03-19 17:41

#10

Xagroth

Re: Guardian Angels

You don't use them for security because cameras and other sensors are good enough. I mean, if it moves its easier to spot (and I think no drone has chamaleonic capabilities) and requires a wireless connection, which can be an even bigger problem for the "defending team" in a setting like Eclipse Phase than just a plain old camera, or even a weight sensor... And the best patrol is composed of egos inside pods or synthmorphs. If you place a weapon in a Guardian Angel consider two factors: first, I would remove the eelware for the weapon's housing. And second, how many shots will the GA get? Even with a +50% of the enlarged magazine you are looking at an awfully low amount of bullets that could be better used in the hands of a morph...

Mon, 2012-03-19 18:32

#11

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

(1) Drones very much [i]are[/i] very much used for security. Security bots are very commonly used, because having synths everywhere is expensive, and skilled human egos even more expensive. (2) A seeker pistol with HEAP doesn't need to hit but so many times. More to the point, most firefights don't actually require anyone to reload.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Mon, 2012-03-19 20:15

#12

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

I think everyone is forgetting that weapons aren't needed for security to exist. The world in EP is effectively a panopticon, with cameras overseeing virtually every event that occurs. Security drones don't necessarily need to be armed... they just need to observe and view. Besides, you really can't have a lot of guns amongst a lot of security anyways. Habitat life is a bit more dangerous than living on a planet like ours. No one risks accidentally hitting a wall on Earth and leaking all of the atmosphere into space... whereas many habitats have to worry about that exact scenario. As a friend and I once joked: "if you build a nation in a balloon, don't expect the police to be armed with needles".

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Mon, 2012-03-19 20:23

#13

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

(1) The player is on Mars, and expects to use those drones in places where security isn't, or otherwise to win the fight before security shows up, and then scram. (2) I'm not forgetting it, but if you're a sentinel who expects to get into a firefights on a regular basis - and plans on walking out of those firefights with his morph intact - then drones that shoot things are sort of a great idea.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Mon, 2012-03-19 21:01

#14

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

Acatalepsy wrote:
(1) The player is on Mars, and expects to use those drones in places where security isn't, or otherwise to win the fight before security shows up, and then scram. (2) I'm not forgetting it, but if you're a sentinel who expects to get into a firefights on a regular basis - and plans on walking out of those firefights with his morph intact - then drones that shoot things are sort of a great idea.

Do note that synthmorphs can double as drones. And since Firewall has access to godly levels of resources, I have no doubt that if there is a need for high-end firepower, they will be supplied with a cadre of Reapers with combat AIs installed on the cyberbrain.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2012-03-20 00:44

#15

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

If we're throwing erasure teams at things, maybe. Most of the time, though, I run being a Sentinel as a largely DIY affair; yes, Firewall has resources, but it's a sentinel's job to make sure those resources aren't needed in the first place.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Tue, 2012-03-20 02:01

#16

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

Acatalepsy wrote:
If we're throwing erasure teams at things, maybe. Most of the time, though, I run being a Sentinel as a largely DIY affair; yes, Firewall has resources, but it's a sentinel's job to make sure those resources aren't needed in the first place.

I don't think it's a DIY affair. Firewall is all about efficiency and subtlety. If the agents need a piece of equipment, they'll receive it as necessary. What are the Firewall caches for if not to ensure that sentinels are properly equipped? A sentinel's job is to be unobtrusive. Firewall is a conspiracy, and one that cannot become public knowledge. The public also can't get wind of Firewall activities. And I got to be honest, if there's one thing that rings of "obtrusive", it's gun-mounted drones. But some missions might call for that, such is the nature of things.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2012-03-20 08:06

#17

Xagroth

Re: Guardian Angels

We are getting diverted from the main point here... You don't need to have morphs everywhere, just in a place where they can reach a number of hotspots/bottlenecks and defend that position (if we talk of defensors). Morphs are more flexible, and unobtrusive, than drones. While a firefight can last less than 20 shots, you should consider that mounting a drone that fires 20 bullets and then is an expensive useless piece of gear (or at least as useless as the unarmed version) is what can be considered suboptimal at best, distraction at worst. That's because, at least to me, in Eclipse Phase if a place requires to have a lot of drones protecting it, then when the firefight starts you can be sure that it will last more than a few minutes, mostly because the usual modus operandi is to not be detected. Also, if you have a CM, time, blueprints and some raw materials, then you can get cases at nearly free... You want an example? I once outfitted a dance club in Mars, in the Valles-New Shanghai city, ran as a cover for a Ultimates cell. Their security? The pleasure pods that acted as waitresses were just baseline ones with eelware and a hidden gun (with a hidden compartment for spare ammo) and a beta fork edited version of severa Ultimates. The physical security systems? Some cameras, some keypads that where, in truth, ID-scans (taken from Panopticon), and secrecy. When there is no reason to think that there is something in there, you don't need much more...

Tue, 2012-03-20 10:26

#18

Acatalepsy Acatalepsy's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

Of course you don't use [i]only[/i] drones, that would be silly. And if you have the ability to camouflage your security, of course you do that, too. But having squads of drones on tap is an effective way to force-multiply, and to cover a larger area with more limited resources. It seems ridiculous to me to claim that we wouldn't ever need drones with guns mounted on them or that drones with guns on them are so rare that we don't need stats for them. It is additionally absurd to me to claim that 'drone rigger' isn't a type of character a PC would want to have, or that isn't valuable in the setting - especially when you look at the NPC File, and realize that the "security jammer" [i]is[/i] a drone rigger.

—

[I]This isn't a war ordinary humans can win. This is the future. Death's an inconvenience, now. Nothing more.[/I]

Tue, 2012-03-20 21:38

#19

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

Acatalepsy wrote:
Of course you don't use [i]only[/i] drones, that would be silly. And if you have the ability to camouflage your security, of course you do that, too. But having squads of drones on tap is an effective way to force-multiply, and to cover a larger area with more limited resources. It seems ridiculous to me to claim that we wouldn't ever need drones with guns mounted on them or that drones with guns on them are so rare that we don't need stats for them. It is additionally absurd to me to claim that 'drone rigger' isn't a type of character a PC would want to have, or that isn't valuable in the setting - especially when you look at the NPC File, and realize that the "security jammer" [i]is[/i] a drone rigger.

Not necessarily. I would presume it would be more akin to a spider. After all, while it is unwise to carry a multitude of weapons within a habitat or zone, it couldn't be particularly uncommon for a building or habitat to have built-in weapons for security purposes. A security jammer would be built for that job. Drones would better serve a purpose as eyes and ears, alongside the already-existent spimes. And no one is saying that a rigger is an impossibility, only that the purpose doesn't necessitate robots, per se. Robots are the lowest class of shell, a classification that includes synthmorphs, robots and vehicles. Synthmorphs are shells with a cyberbrain, vehicles are shells with passenger capability, and robots are shells with neither. If you look through the books, you will find a multitude of synthmorphs that would fulfill almost any purpose you might need for a drone. On the other hand, there aren't that many robots. My guess is that robots are being largely replaced by synthmorphs, having all the same functions, with the added capability of housing an ego.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Thu, 2012-03-22 09:26

#20

Xagroth

Re: Guardian Angels

Decivre][quote=Acatalepsy wrote:
On the other hand, there aren't that many robots. My guess is that robots are being largely replaced by synthmorphs, having all the same functions, with the added capability of housing an ego.

Indentured service? Get a body in exchange of 10 years doing my house chores... Sign for a little more... extra night shifts, and you will get a pleasure pod instead of a case...

Fri, 2012-03-23 00:03

#21

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

Xagroth wrote:
Indentured service? Get a body in exchange of 10 years doing my house chores... Sign for a little more... extra night shifts, and you will get a pleasure pod instead of a case...

The rise in the indenture industry was probably a big factor in this. Indentures do decrease the need for AI-driven bots, and increase the need for synthmorphs. Why do with a mindless drone what you can do with an intelligent slave?

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2012-04-03 01:48

#22

nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

Decivre wrote:
Xagroth wrote:
Indentured service? Get a body in exchange of 10 years doing my house chores... Sign for a little more... extra night shifts, and you will get a pleasure pod instead of a case...
The rise in the indenture industry was probably a big factor in this. Indentures do decrease the need for AI-driven bots, and increase the need for synthmorphs. Why do with a mindless drone what you can do with an intelligent slave?

There are still reasons for using AIs (issues of trust and controlability being near the top of the list), but since you can use a synthmorph for egos OR AIs your point still stands. As an aside, I could see a particularly paranoid type using bots without cyberbrains to ensure there couldn't be an ego inside the thing trying to infiltrate his business or home (there would have to be certain extra precautions against tele-operation and jamming, but that could be taken care of).

Tue, 2012-04-03 12:33

#23

Decivre

Re: Guardian Angels

nerdnumber1 wrote:
As an aside, I could see a particularly paranoid type using bots without cyberbrains to ensure there couldn't be an ego inside the thing trying to infiltrate his business or home (there would have to be certain extra precautions against tele-operation and jamming, but that could be taken care of).

Actually, I'm guessing that there are ways to manually limit the capability of cyberbrains. Disabling the puppet sock, or running it in a reduced mode which renders it incapable of containing a full transhuman mind are both possibilities... no more exotic than shutting off the NIC on your computer or underclocking your processor.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2012-04-10 06:28

#24

Marek Krysiak Marek Krysiak's picture

Re: Guardian Angels

Here's a video of spherical flying drone developed by the Japanes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF0uLnMoQZA I imagine Guardian Angels are somewhat similar - but heavier for sure, if they have any kind of armour.

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