cut the starship sections out of Traveller and glue them in. Or base your starship rules on one of the GURPS Space books, D20 Future, Mekton Zeta, Lightning Strike (Jovian Chronicles world from Dream Pod 9), or take pages from a wargame like SFB or Full Thrust or Silent Death. Remove any rules for FTL travel, shields, and whatever bits of ultratech dont fit in the setting. replace with nanotech weapons, AI smart munitions, and cournocopia machines. the game can be anything you want it to be. its CC licensed, and the publishers are encouraging people to write their own stuff. If they dont want to focus on space combat and you do, there is a WEALTH of material already available to use in any way you see fit. I'd rather run space combat in a RPG as a narative event, probalby without any die rolls at all. but if I did want to stat it out, theres probably half a dozen games on my shelves with serviceable rules for it. probably on your bookshelf too. Hell, if I was really in a pinch, i could just scale up "Car Wars" by multiples of a thousand. Turning templates for spaceships would be awesome. I can see it now: "I do a bootlegger reverse but maintain my present vector!" shoot, carwars is probably better adaptable to space combat than most space games are.

I just wanted to say that I kept wondering the same thing when I read through other people's entries in that thread. Space combat? In my Eclipse Phase? Hopefully it's less likely than I think.

Considering that much of the EP rules seem (to me) to be conversions of the SR4 rules - particularly in actions and many of the modifiers - I'm really thankful that SR4's terrible vehicle combat and chase combat rules have not been converted over.

Remember too that 'personal scale' isn't a fixed measurement when you can have some really outlandish morphs. It's possible that some corp has a King Kong morph for their uplifted apes to use when gatecrashing, and soon we'll have transforming spacecraft-mecha as morphs (starting at about 150CP no doubt) to zoom in alongside the space whales! Then we'll need vehicle (spaceship) combat rules.

Rasumichin wrote:

Doesn't Catalyst already -own- a working combat system for large SF vehicles? What about integrating Battletech/Astrotech into EP?

First, don't forget that CGL is just the publisher of EP, not its owner. Second, I seriously doubt that CGL would be willing to release BT/AT under a CC license...so I'd prefer that those rules stay as far away as possible from EP as possible.

Totally agree that it would be a waste of developers' time to make space combat rules for EP, given that EP is not a space opera setting. If it doesn't fit into the game's universe, why bother? (If gamers develop their own rules under the CC license, that's a different story, of course.) I should perhaps disclose (and move slightly off topic) that I rarely roll dice or make use of game mechanics in my stories, and when I do, I keep it fast and simple. For me, rules and rolls constitute rare elements of (fun) randomness and excitement, rather than the core of RPGs. You guessed it - I will use my scissors and scalpels on most parts of the EP mechanics, which is fine as I love the setting and that's whats important to me.

Hi all. First post here. Fascinating looking game! Haven't bought it yet, but the addition of space travel rules would seal the deal for me. The thread in question demonstrated that a potentially significant portion of EP owners and prospective owners are interested in having spacecraft and space travel rules in the game. This doesn't have to go as far as an in depth space combat game, but it wouldn't [i]hurt[/i] the game if it included at least a chapter on the subject, and some spacecraft construction rules. GURPS Transhuman Space did this nicely, in its core book, without detracting from the rest. I for one would like it included; like many SFRPG fans, I feel that interplanetary settings are incomplete if they don't include rules for interplanetary travel and combat. Better to include it. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to, but those of us who do would be most grateful. Without it, the game will feel incomplete for many of us.

But aren't we, as players and GMs, free to include or exclude parts of the rules and/or setting material as we see fit? If the answer is no because EP's rules are "too integrated" with its setting, that's a point against it, IMHO. And if a player group likes EP and [i]wants[/i] space travel and combat, isn't it better for them (and therefore more enjoyable) to have a choice provided by the publisher, rather than fudging or homebrewing them? I don't see how including spacecraft rules can change the game significantly for people who aren't interested in spacecraft. Just means that there's a chapter or supplement you don't buy or read. Lots of RPGs have those. In fact, as a hard sf fan, I'd most likely ignore EP's sections on psionics and FTL travel. Finally, what exactly do you think will happen to your campaigns if a spacecraft supplement arrives on the bookshelves? My campaigns aren't affected by what RPG companies sell, unless my players and I choose to allow it. Oh, and space travel and combat are just COOL.

Personaly I think that EP was doomed to space opera as soon as someone wrote the words 'fighter' and 'destroyer' next to descriptions of spaceships. I am not good at math and I hate having to relearn it every time I get the itch to figgure something out, but I've been working on figgureing the travel time from earth to neptune for 3 damn nights now. All because someone wrote the word 'destroyer' next to the description of a spaceship that carries 20 fighters. Rob and co. wrote BsG into the setting with that single paragraph. It's gonna happen. All we can hope for is that it's grounded in Reality.

Imagine that, for a Firewall mission, you are having to go from a habitat in Mars Orbit to the Martian surface. The mission is requiring you to either bring something down, or pick something up(or both). This object has to be carried in your shuttle. The "Bad Guys" do not want you to make the delivery, and so, when you are enroute with the McGuffin, but before you hit the atmosphere, have you intercepted by armed mining craft. In the rules as they are, it is "This is a plot device, and the characters are not to have any control over the actual outcome." If space/vehicle combat rules were added, it would change that dynamic. The change is it moves from "Rail-roading is the rule!" to "Power to the Players!"

Sunfall wrote:

The problem is that plausible space combat is nothing like it's shown on TV or in movies. It'd never get that close; it's all about long-range weaponry, killsats and taking advantage of travelling at fractions of [i]c[/i] to pepper the other person with rocks. Nasty, brutish, short, and decidedly uncinematic. Fighters swooping around each other looks cool, but it's not hard sf. So, if done right, I feel that a space combat chapter [i]still[/i] wouldn't meet what people really want, which is 'let me do [i]Battlestar Galactica[/i]/[i]Star Wars[/i] in EP!'...which goes back to the tonal issues discussed above.

I suspect that most gamers interested in space combat in a hard-SF RPG are going to want their space combat to be hard-SF as well, so there's no need to assume that we're asking for BSG or Star Wars-style rules. And a good GM can make realistic space combat as cinematic as he wants, without sacrificing realism. (I believe that authenticity and cinematic excitement are not mutually exclusive, unless you're dealing with an unimaginative or unengaged gaming group.) The eponymous first novel in the [i]Cold As Ice[/i] trilogy by Charles Sheffield, opens with a very dramatic portrayal of an interplanetary ship's encounter with an Autonomous Kill Vehicle left over from the last war. It's a plausible, authentic illustration of of space combat such as we might expect in a hard-SF RPG like EP, and it's very cinematic.

Sunfall wrote:

Let me show what I mean with an absurd: if the next EP supplement had a chapter on, say, dropping your players on a planet that follows the rules of [i]Dungeons & Dragons[/i]--not a sim or anything, just some world where gods walk the earth, magic works, et cetera--don't you feel that the [i]tone[/i] that that chapter represents, whether or not you, yourself, use it in the game, affects the setting?

No, because...

Sunfall wrote:

I'd feel it's a waste of a chunk of book, and quite far from the tone of the game as presented so far. But it's all words, and ignorable.

I happen to be more of a stickler for SF hardness than most, so I appreciate your desire to avoid anything which cheapens, trivializes or otherwises derails EP from its established setting. However, I don't think any of us is asking for spacecraft rules that violate any generally accepted hard-SF tropes. On the other hand, if they're published and you don't like them for your game, ignore them. I've done the same thing with psionics in some Traveller campaigns. If EP's space combat rules soften the science by including provisions for "stealth in space" or any significant detection roll difficulties for spacecraft encounters, I won't be using that part of the rules. Traveller, 2300AD and even GURPS THS, each a hard-SF RPG to some extent, have included this in various degrees, to appeal, I think, to our reliance on Earth-bound naval and aeronautical analogies for how we imagine space combat, and to keep space combat as much a skill-based, "roll-playable" activity as possible. This has been debated ad nauseum on message boards for these games and others, but the actual science underlying the discussion always points to the same conclusion - that you can't hide a spaceship in space. Winchell Chung's great website, [url=http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/]Atomic Rockets[/url], has a whole section devoted to this, and his sources are credible.

Sunfall wrote:

I just think that it's missing the point. (As, I fear I feel the need to point out, do the developers themselves, as represented in the text.)

I've seen this part of the text as well, and I wonder if the developers have reserved the option to add (and charge for) a separate supplement on spacecraft, with the first line of text reading, "Due to overwhelming demand...".

Wow! the last several posts have been excellent. I've yet to master spelling let alone the language. I appreciate hanging with people who can concisely express a point of view and support it with an intelligent argument. Or to put it the short way; I think you're all correct. It's a good point that rules are necessary for orbital range vehicle encounters. I think those rules are provided on pp. 195-197. (these are basically a stripped down version of the Shadowrun4 vehicle rules which actually work with some adjudication and book keeping by a sensible GM. I fully agree with the points made by Asimovian and Octomorph. We need some rules that allow us to understand Space [i]Travel[/i] (and I'm specifically not talking about interplanetary space combat.) Like I said before I've been trying to wrap my head around the subject for a week now. To help you understand what a monumental task this is for me I'll just say I had to use google to remember how to use scientific notation. LOL So far I've learned that it's all incredibly complex and probably not something fun to tackle in a RPG unless players like calculus. Also I'm about half way finished making a solar system map that better represents the scale of things and were things are at in relation to each other. (I plan to use it as a desktop background I'm happy to share if you like.) Simplifying to the point that they don't kill the game but still somehow represent reality is a Herculean task. I'm left with questions like: Do ships with Anti-Matter rockets still have to use Hohmann transfer orbits? Does the planetary consortium use the Interplanetary transfer network for military supply and logistics? if there was ever a reason for Seed AI that would be the first on the list. Is it really feasible to spin a 150m wide habitat up to 3.5rpm to get 1G? What is the ratio of anti-matter to hydrogen used in an anti-matter rocket, and how often would you have to refuel? What is the ratio of surface area:mass to make a Solar Sail produce a given acceleration. Why the Hell is NASA's MESSENGER mission to Venus starting it's 11th! orbit of the sun? These questions are depriving me of sleep. I wish that I could just accept ego casting and realize that space ships don't really mater but I can't and I suspect that there are allot of others who feel the same way. I would be extremely happy if the next published supplement was just a simple framework for arbitrating space travel that would save me from all this work. [edit]Oh and if you don't know allready, you should check out the Interplanetary Transfer Network. It's Frikken Cool! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_Network

I have read many a good point above, and will therefore revise my blunt opinion above. Partly. I do agree that rules or guidelines for space travel would be awesome. If the GM follows the EP setting as it is set out in the book, these rules will be rarely used. But as the PCs are more likely than other people in the solar system to find themselves drifting in a partly destroyed habitat or to sneak up on a secret Jovian research station, so what the hell. (Note, not "sneak up" as in using cloaking device which is out of the question, but as opposed to calling up ahead and asking nicely if they can egocast into the station.) Turning to space combat. First of all, the argument that there are references to space battles in the book is not very relevant - to my memory these references are to large scale battles where the PCs would have very little influence on the outcome in any case! Even if you argue that EP should have space combat rules, surely we agree that it is not a tactical or strategic space war simulator? However, as in my Jovian research base example above, there will most likely be sensors, a couple of killsats and/or cannon greeting the PCs. Fine, give us some more details on how defense systems work, how you avoid them (apart from hacking), disable them, fight them, destroy them. In a different scenario the PCs may be pursuing a shuttle or spaceship leaving orbit and trying to disable or destroy it. So I concede. However, I maintain that if the GM sticks to the EP universe, these situations will happen quite rarely even for our action seeking PCs. And if they do happen, the PCs run a very high risk of getting killed rather quickly. That's their problem, though ;) (Personally, I will not use any complicated rules put to me, but would look to them for guidance in the event my players are reckless enough to engage in some sort of space battle. I would be more interested in more fluff on space combat, e.g. pics of space ships, descriptions of weapons systems etc.)

standard_gravity wrote:

The problem - of course - with ITN is that it is awfully slow, so as soon as something needs to get from A to B with any urgency (no matter what level or urgency) ITN would be out of the question. I suppose.

As in YEARS just to get from Earth to the Moon, rather than days for a Hohmann transfer. With a Hohmann you can get from Earth to Mars in 8 months, and to Jupiter in 2 years plus. For a hard-SF solar system RPG, I can see this method used by small, independent spacecraft operating on the cheap, or unmanned freighters on a regular shipping run, but any military or otherwise urgent trip would opt for a more direct, higher-consumption orbit. The rules for all this don't have to be complicated. There are synodic tables and delta-V requirements all over the internet, including the references I've mentioned, and with half-decent construction rules you could easily work this information backwards to determine engine and fuel requirements for a PC-owned or operated ship, if that's what they're up to.

Thanks, Colin! I appreciate the encouragement, especially coming from someone "in the biz". I'm pretty busy these days with coursework and volunteer stuff on top of my regular job and family, so I'm not sure that I'd be able to give it the time it deserves. I know I said the rules could be relatively simple, but they should also be GOOD.

I'm just here to lobby for spacecraft rules and let someone else do the work. Seriously, I couldn't devote the time to such an effort to do it justice, but I laud your enthusiasm to do so. This thread and the "Hotfix" thread are the result of the developers asking what we want added to the game, and space-stuff seems to be the most common request, notwithstanding our little debate here. Maybe the developers could chime in and let us know if they're considering tackling it.

Well, not to sound cynical, but it could be that Catalyst decided to omit it from the core book, expecting that many players are willing to pay separately for it, so they publish it as part of a supplement or as a standalone addon.

Then there is the thing about gravity, which would require rotation, so I'd go for spherical or otherwise rotating ships for longer-distance travelling. But the idea of a giant japanese schoolgirl spaceship is indeed appealing :)

Asimovian wrote:

Yes... We definitely need some rules.

I disagree. We don't really need rules, just more setting info. Detailed space travel/combat rules sort of go well beyond the scope of the game, which is closer to a cyberpunk game, especially due to the hard(er) SF tone of it. Travel times, ship information, and the like would be very helpful, but unless you're looking for a more Cowboy Bebop or Firefly type feel for the setting, where space travel/combat is more cinematic, I can't see additional space rules being much use. In the scope of the setting, space travel/combat should just be skill roles, and that's what we've got. You don't need vectors or anything, as that's what the character's skill would be dealing with in-game, and it skirts closer to metagaming when you throw in a system to cover what the character should already know. It also pulls you out of the game if your character's not a pilot. Just like netrunning in a cyberpunk game, or space combat in more space combat-y games. If you want rules like this, power to you, but the game doesn't need them. It's just not that type of game. It's neither THS or Traveller, and if you prefer that type of game, then I'd recommend playing either of them over EP.

JLongden wrote:

Asimovian wrote:

Yes... We definitely need some rules.

I disagree. We don't really need rules, just more setting info. Detailed space travel/combat rules sort of go well beyond the scope of the game, which is closer to a cyberpunk game, especially due to the hard(er) SF tone of it. Travel times, ship information, and the like would be very helpful, but unless you're looking for a more Cowboy Bebop or Firefly type feel for the setting, where space travel/combat is more cinematic, I can't see additional space rules being much use.

I think most of us here who have been advocating for more detail have been on the side of space travel rather than space combat - particularly due to the Hard SF tone and the fact that a substantial portion of player's time will likely be spent in that environment. Also keep in mind that Cyberpunk (2013 and 2020) had supplements dealing with space travel (and combat to a limited degree) and GURPS: Transhuman Space also had substantial coverage of the topic. Compared to the detailed coverage of other topics, it just feels like a huge gap. If material had to be cut or left for later due to space/cost/time constraints, fair enough, but give us a sense of what plans there are. If I had time or talent, I'd take a pass at it myself (cribbing mightly from what has come before), but I don't.

First post in this community!

I have mixed feelings on this topic. I do see a place for additional information about space travel. Travel times, hazards, maybe details on size and the costs of space travel (which might be in the core book and I haven't found it yet).

I do get a twinge in my gut that the advocates of space rules will want very crunchy space combat rules. I've been partially reassured by the person who reviewed the Hotfix thread and only found 3 out of 30 posters who actually professed a desire for that sort of content; at the same time the cynical side of me argues "they say that now... but let 'em get a foot in the door and... Star Fleet Battles with Hackers."

Here's where I'm coming from:
1.) I like clean and simple rules that occasionally allow me to handle sophisticated situations. So far EP has impressed me on that count with its flexibility and scope, and I don't want that design paradigm to change.

2.) There seems like there are other topics that could use further expansion, for my tastes, this is a lesser priority. I'd love more psi and Mesh, for example.

3.) I love the themes of conspiracy, espionage, horror, and investigation. When a military or nautical (space nautical) theme gets introduced, I do become concerned that it informs and alters the genre you're trying to work with; because it has to- in order maintain any internal logic.

Where can I compromise? (As if I have any great choice..)

I'm not unreasonable. It would be handy to know some basics about space travel in this game, including what the ships look like and how long does it take to travel around. I couldn't argue against that if I tried. Also, if you're in space and exploring a seeming abandoned spacecraft on a Firewall mission, it helps to know some more stuff.

I just ask/vote for simple clean rules, and details that can lend themselves to conspiracy, espionage, horror, and investigation- not detract from them by going in a new direction.

Quote:

As I mentioned earlier, I'd prefer to have a choice backed up by a set of rules - not necessarily complex ones, either. You would retain the choice to not use them, and we could each define our game according to our tastes.

The setting, as written, doesn't really support the need for them. As per page 283, ships are AI controlled, and egocasting is the preferred mode of getting from here to there over long distances. (I hesitate to call it transportation.) The game, by design, treats ships as an environment rather than gear/vehicles to be used. It's not a bug, it's a feature, and Catalyst didn't intentionally remove space rules to hose people into buying future supplements.

Quote:

The setting, as written, doesn't really support the need for them. As per page 283, ships are AI controlled, and egocasting is the preferred mode of getting from here to there over long distances. (I hesitate to call it transportation.) The game, by design, treats ships as an environment rather than gear/vehicles to be used. It's not a bug, it's a feature, and Catalyst didn't intentionally remove space rules to hose people into buying future supplements.

Different interpretations and different playstyles. I would argue that the rules are incomplete with regard to the topic - for example, including a table of thrust values for different engine types and the gravity wells for various planetary bodies, but not including any more detail on ships themselves (e.g. layout, living conditions). Which would be of more use from a setting perspective? IMHO it would be the latter rather than the former.

Quote:

by Asimovian: it's easier to include it and have it as an option, than to fudge it and/or try to ignore it as part of the setting.

I'm making an attempt to do some of this in a thread in the comunity projects and i have to say that it seems to be incredably difficult to even 'fudge' it. It's like trying to make a departure and arivals schedule for an international airport when you don't know what the flight paths will be because all the airports are moving. it really sucks. As to the people who want to know what the layout of the ships are like, there is quite a bit of info.

Quote:

page 349: STANDARD TRANSPORT One of the additional benefits of the standard transport is the fact that it contains four separate passenger compartments, each of which is mounted on a 90 meter-long booms that can extend and rotate to simulate gravity.

That's just an example: there's quite alot to be gleaned from the rest of the ship entries; Fighters have 5 guns and rockets in the nose so call em X-wings, LLOTV's are conical vehicles with a heat shield and legs at the base, the interiors are reconfigurable to cary more/less cargo/fuel. Also we know part of the mass of the curior ships and the destroyers by the descriptions of their fuel and stoorage. So extrapolate from there. You get pretty standard designs. Linear, axial. with structural designs capable of withstanding what ever G their drives can produce. Interior compartments oriented to take advantage of accelration forces while also optimized for microgravity. Basicly the architecture hasn't changed much in the same way that wet ships haven't changed much.

Quote:

by JLongden: The game, by design, treats ships as an environment rather than gear/vehicles to be used. It's not a bug, it's a feature, and Catalyst didn't intentionally remove space rules to hose people into buying future supplements.

I fully agree with that. Except for this;

Quote:

page 349: While egocasting is by far the most common form of inter-habitat transport, some people prefer to travel by ship and others do not wish to leave their current morph behind. In addition, some goods are easier or cheaper to physically transport rather than duplicating their templates. As a result, [b]standard transports regularly travel to and from every large habitat and inhabited planet and moon in the solar system.[/b]

Not only that but Asteroid wrangleing is a major business (enough to make claims of a rep economy tottaly false but thats for another thread) And not only that but we have actual Pirates listed in the factions chapter. Space travel happens. Alot. Even with the fact of digital freight. There are so many scenarios that make me ask the queston; how long does it take to get from here to there that I keep trying to actually figure it out. Here's one: Once apon a time the firewall team was told to check out a habitat that was recently quarentined. No one was sure exactly why the habitat was quarantined. But they suspected it was the Evil Exurgent Virus. So they went there. The end. [edit]Also don't forget what your parents told you; "Getting there is half the fun. NOW PUT YOUR SEATBELT BACK ON AND STOP BUGGING YOUR SISTER! I SWEAR TO GOD I'LL TURN THIS SHIP AROUND!"[/edit]