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Carapace and other things

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Wed, 2009-10-21 18:26

Anawyn

I've been looking through the book, and really like the setting, and generally like the rules. I'm strongly considering running it with my group, but do have a few questions/issues that seem like they could come up quickly in our game. The main thing I'm trying to figure out is armor. I understand the basic rules, it's more of a balance concern, and just some rules weirdness. Synths seem to have a very large advantage here with their possibilities for armored shells. Based on the numbers I see from weapons, it seems like the even the lighter combat armor could cause them to need almost twice as many shots to go down as an organic morph, assuming both are otherwise wearing similar armor. This is not even accounting for the rather high Durability the synths have. I understand that synths are looked down upon, but it also mentions them being common for security and combat roles, so I doubt a synth bodyguard would be looked at too strangely. I suppose I just always dislike massive rules differences between character types like this, as it can mess with concept for someone who wants, say, a fury mercenary, but always falls much faster than the synth soldier. Now, carapace seems like it should actually fix much of the problem, as it closes much of the gap between biomorph and synth armor ratings. It also carries an obvious physical shift, which seems fine, balance-wise. And yet, it doesn't stack with worn armor. Why is that? It doesn't seem to be balance, since the synths already have higher innate armor available. It can't be that you can't wear armor over it, you can even wear armor over armor after all. Why is this the only armor type that can't stack? I realize this can easily be house-ruled, but I like to hear justifications before I automatically change something. Sometimes I'm just missing something, or not thinking of things in the right way.

Wed, 2009-10-21 20:16

PhoenixFlame PhoenixFlame's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

Bear in mind this post is purely theroycraft, and while I haven't managed to take part in a serious game yet, a friend of mine and I have been running some intro mechanics tests to see how the system runs. Personally, as a veteran of many systems over the years, I find it works pretty darn well so long as you don't make an attempt to break it, but this is one of those things that causes it to do weird things. To be fair, most systems have this 'feature.' Now for the nitty gritty. To compare weapons, I made a calculation to see how much damage they'd do on average agaisnt a well-armored opponent using the heaviest in-class weapon in it's most effective fire mode. I added the AP to the average rolled damage and then added autofire bonuses when applicable. It came out something like... Melee: Monofilament sword - 20 damage (/W Somatics 30) Kinetic Weapons: Autofire Railgun Sniper Rifle /w AP ammo - 56.5 damage Beam Weapons: Plasma Rifle - 36.5 damage Spray Weapons: Autofire Shredder - 41.5 damage Seeker Weapons: HEAP Minimissile - 36.5 damage or, to cheat slightly, HEAP Standard missile - 65 damage. Comparing this to damage attenuation by morph type with optimal armor... Assuming durability sixty for a wound threshhold of 11 (Reapers and mildly augmented Furies) Biomorphs: 23 Armor + 11 or 34 damage to wound (Heavy Bioweave armor, Heavy Battle Armor+Helm and Refractive Glazed Second-skin) Synthmorphs: 35 Armor + 11 or 46 damage to wound (Heavy Combat Armor, Heavy Battle Armor + Helm and Refractive Glazed Second-skin) On average, to an optimally armored combat morph of any type, a monofilament sword is completely ineffective (but can be used to grapple, so that give it a purpose). A plasma rifle and high explosive armor-piercing minimissile is hitting for around 13.5 damage to biomorphs and 1.5 damage to synthmorphs. Shredders and Rail Snipers fare considerably better thanks to autofire, getting a good amount of damage through (18.5/6.5 to for shredders, 33.5/21.5 for snipers, bio/synth) I can already feel the 'Die, powergamer'! glares, so I'm going to stop now. Really, my first SO was an engineer, I blame him for corrupting me into these trains of thought. Armor's great for mid-power combat, though, and plays a key role in character survivability. However, I suggest synthetic characters only get to freely stack their innate, unmodified armor bonuses with worn armor. (Usually 4-6, about on-par with bioweave) This requires tweaking reapers, of course, but otherwise you're going to need automatic sniper-railguns or light antitank weapons to scratch combat synths.

Fri, 2009-10-23 05:20

Ustio

Re: Carapace and other things

To be honest I dont see this disparity as a balanceor reality-check problem, after all its a lot harder to damage a machine desinged for durability than something organic. The balance comes in other areas - social acceptance, vulnarability to hacking, lack of an inherent self-repair mechanism, less options regaring implants, and so forth. Picking one aspect of the caharacter and not looking at the whole will always lead people astray, I always like to try and see how the same morph/race/class would fare in a variety of situations to see if its balanced or not.

Fri, 2009-10-23 14:02

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

Hmm. For some reason I've been assumeing that Synths with armor upgrades couldnt wear other armor. (in the same way that carapace armor isn't compatible with worn armor.) I was ready to complain that synths are pussies. While I'm still not sure that a synth, (especially a Reaper which must look like those little rolling droids in starwars prequels), can upgrade to Heavy battle armor and then wear battle armor over it, obviously they could use Second Skin. I was thinking they might also be able to use Ablative patches. I've also made the assumption that Synth armor could also take all the upgrades that worn armor could. If i can manage to find some players in my area I think I might rule that Synths with built in armor can only use worn armor that's specificaly listed as compatible with other armor. Am i right or wrong about that? Now I'm starting to wonder if a synth can physicaly drive an exoskeleton.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Fri, 2009-10-23 17:41

Anawyn

Re: Carapace and other things

The section about stacking synth armor is on page 194, upper right. I think it's fairly clear that they can, at least by the current rules. I may comment about the other parts of this thread more later, I'm still considering things.

Fri, 2009-10-23 19:36

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

I guess I'm stuck on the word "Inherent" "the armor inherent to a synthetic morph or bot’s frame does not constitute a layer of armor" I figgurd that ment the 6 ponts included with the basic synth. The more I think about it, I'm more convinced that Heavy Combat Armor (pp.310) is not inherant, it's an addition or a modification. In the same way that the +10 REF from Adrenal Boosters is not inherant to a biomorph. The fluff pretty much confirms it for me; "This modification is bulky and noticeable; the bot frame is encased in a heavy-duty carapace." Note the words Modification bulky and carapace.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Fri, 2009-10-23 20:01

Anawyn

Re: Carapace and other things

Hmm. That's possible. There are a few reasons I'm not totally sold on that, though I could see it being the case. There are also some ways in which that doesn't fully help things. I'm not sure if it's actually worth arguing whether inherent includes the armor modifications or not, as I can see some arguments either way, and it would require someone else to confirm anything. I will mention though, that using heavy combat armor as an example there isn't very helpful. The light combat armor says nothing about any of those things, and is fairly strong too, it only slightly fixes the problem. Now, if none of modifications work, that helps some, but leaves us with the oddity of the Reaper, which starts with 16/16. Not to mention the other two that at least have 8/8, though I can kind of live with that, when compared to a biomorph with bioweave. The synths can certainly be tougher, but the level of it with the modifications just seemed like too much. All this being said, I would still like confirmation at some point, as well as a reason why some things stack and others don't. I can kind of understand carapace and heavy combat armor, but the light and industrial armor makes less sense. And I'm not sure why the heavy ones don't just use the typical -20 rule. Or is that what Carapace means when it says it doesn't stack? A tweak here or there makes it all fine of course, and I'll go with what seems sensible, I guess I'm just curious at this point.

Fri, 2009-10-30 10:53

Vargone

Re: Carapace and other things

You also have to look at the synthmorph stats. A standard syth has armor 6/6 arachnoid 8/8 reaper 16/16. But a reaper lists combat aromor (heavy) as an already added enhancement and the other morphs don't. so in my games the other morphs that don't have the armor listed in their preinstalled enhancements are armored with their own inherent structure, whereas the reaper is not. Any enhancement that you add that is higher would (i would think) nessesitate the removal of the old armor layer, and completlu replace it with the new armor value. The only exception that I allow to that are synths and cases wearing combat armor suits, I let their natual armor stack. All others are too strangly shaped and must get the armor structurally installed.

Fri, 2009-10-30 20:24

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

Vargone wrote:
The only exception that I allow to that are synths and cases wearing combat armor suits, I let their natual armor stack. All others are too strangly shaped and must get the armor structurally installed.

Yep, that's pretty much were I stand too. Altho I think the most compelling reason not to allow the Reaper to wear armor is that it's basically a big smart material Hocky Puck that can extrude arms and legs if it wants too.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Tue, 2009-11-17 07:29

#10

Cardul

Re: Carapace and other things

OneTrikPony wrote:
Altho I think the most compelling reason not to allow the Reaper to wear armor is that it's basically a big smart material Hocky Puck that can extrude arms and legs if it wants too.

Now, I am so going to make an Infolife that uses a flying Reaper morph, and name it Gamera!

Tue, 2009-11-17 08:54

#11

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

[Sniger] Nice one! :D

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Thu, 2009-12-17 19:18

#12

lathe

Re: Carapace and other things

Cardul wrote:
Now, I am so going to make an Infolife that uses a flying Reaper morph, and name it Gamera!

I think you would also be required to take the motivation +Friend of all children

Fri, 2009-12-18 10:40

#13

knasser

Re: Carapace and other things

I came to the board to look at exactly this thread. I originally presumed that you couldn't stack worn armour with the synth's Combat Armour, but having read it quite clearly and considered things like the Reaper that comes with it pre-installed, I have to conclude that you almost certainly can stack them. It's definitely something that could do with a bit of clarification, but it seems to be the case. (imo). Which means we have a Synth in our upcoming game with 32/32 armour. (I could get it higher with a helmet). Assuming we had an enemy with a rail gun machine gun, and assuming that they hit without scoring a critical success or huge MoS, we'd be looking at them doing 3d10+18 (34 damage) at -7AP, which against the Synth reduces to 9 points of damage. Well short of the 16WT this character also has. So basically, we have the Terminator. But I can live with that. The Called Shot rules are pretty generous, as are both the MoS and Critical Success rules. I imagine the first time a melee combatant gets on this thing and does a Called Shot to bypass the armour (assuming I allow that), it's going to hurt. What I'd probably do would be allow a Called Shot to bypass one of the armours. (If they then got a Critical Success, they'd bypass the second layer also). Thoughts? K.

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Sun, 2009-12-20 03:27

#14

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

"Thoughts?" Yes. The thought having to tell a player they can't put worn armor on a reaper annoys me enough to make the game less fun. I suppose if a character has access to a fabber and if they have blue prints or if they could write the code themselves they could build armor that could be worn ontop of a synth's heavy millitary armor. But then so could they build armor that could be worn on top of another suit of armor and then they could build armor that could be worn on top of an exoskeleton. And then they could start to cheese it up with more stick on armor panels. In fact there's really no reason that they couldn't stick armor to those for a double layer, because they stick right? Annoying.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Sun, 2009-12-20 05:21

#15

knasser

Re: Carapace and other things

Granted, you'd have trouble finding armour that could be worn by a Reaper. Particularly when its starts shifting its shape. This does present a problem however. It means that the Reaper which is supposed to be an ultimate bad-ass fighting morph, ends up more vulnerable in practice than a Synth which can wear armour. It need not matter to - there's nothing upsetting about the game balance and to beat the Reaper, it would have to be a Synth that was already modified with Combat Armour so we're not talking anything standard. Worth noting though. Anyway, I didn't quite get the tone of your post. Obviously there's sarcasm in there. ;) But are you saying that you don't like even normal Synths to wear armour or are you, as I think you are, just expressing a dislike of Reapers wearing it? I ran my first session of Eclipse Phase last night. It was an absolute blast. Loved it. The setting, the rules system. On the subject of the super-tough Synth, it hasn't been a problem so far. Sure the character can walk through a hail of automatic fire without caring, but the player enjoys that, so I actually find I don't mind. There are challenges enough remaining.

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Sun, 2009-12-20 14:12

#16

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

Armor damage rules would make such a situation much more interesting. Remember: the armor may block the shot, but if the point of flexion is compromised in doing so, the wearer of the armor loses the use of that particular limb.

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Tue, 2009-12-22 10:41

#17

Vargone

Re: Carapace and other things

I only let synths and cases stack armor if they have not already modified their inherent armor. If they have military armor of any kind installed they are SOL. (Though If one of my players were to ask if they could design a better armor package for their morph I might consider it. Would be dificult though. I would require a raft of supporting mods (strength upgrades, structural bracing etc.) I consider the reaper 18/18 the top of the line. You can't be much heavier then that without adding some serious servo-boost, structural support. I think the idea of trying to wear what amounts to plate armor over anouther suit of plate armor kinda ludicrus, I dont care what kinda materials they are made out of. With the ability to swap morphs and restroe Ego from backups, I encourage most of my players to think more like spec-ops/ghosts. If they reeeeeaaallly need tanks, I'll have firewall stick 'em in modified synths and bios designed for it.

Sun, 2010-01-03 13:51

#18

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

knasser wrote:
Anyway, I didn't quite get the tone of your post.

That's what I get for posting when I'm tired and grumpy. Sorry about that. I guess I was trying to make a couple of points. A. when adjudicating what is *possible* in any magical setting the GM (and developers) should approach from a position of scepticism; ie. "Why shoudn't this work" (Yes. My standpoint is that EP is a magical setting given the realatively unlimited powers of Fabbers in the core rules.) B. A player could concievably program blue prints for armor that will work on a Reaper. Basicly a 'double hull' a second layer of smart material armor. And, since smart materials are poorly explaned, the 'magic' of smart materials allows any character to build an exoskeleton of smart material armor for any morph. C. When the IMPOSIBLE as pertains to Fabbers, Smart Materials and Nanotech in the setting is undefined then the technology becomes magical and limited only by the immaginations of the players. Most times that's a really great thing. In this case it could lead to double hulled Reapers in exoskeletons wearing stickon armor. It's entirely up to the GM to dictate where this stops. It's not even high double digit armor stats that bother me, rules is rules. If 50 points of armor are posible with no drawbacks then that will become prevelant and that's just what the setting is. What bothers me is absurdity. A synth with heavy millitary armor wearing an armored vest seems absurd to me. A Reaper in an exo is absurd. That's just my personal hangup I guess.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Wed, 2010-01-06 07:56

#19

Re: Carapace and other things

The way I see the Reaper is that it stands at the limit between a morph and a vehicle. Add to it a few armor modification and you have an armored vehicle that is kind of bulky for any habitat populated by regular biomorph : can't go through a door without destroying it, needs to bypass small lifts, etc... Can do, as it has many ways to overcome these problems but I see them as convenient as a tachikoma inside a mall. I have no problem with a fully-equipped morph having 34 armor. I will just be cautious that this only happen in the phase where the players said "ok, the bad guys are there, we need our muscles, let's prepare". Nothing forbids a character to resleeve as an informorph driving an assault tank. Considering this, stack whatever is in the book on a reaper. The opposition may need anti-vehicular weapons or vehicles to resist, that seems sensible enough to me.

Tue, 2010-01-12 12:36

#20

standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

I think Iv makes several good points. The fact that something can be done, does not mean that doing so does not bring about other problems. In a present day PRG setting, for example, PCs could buy and drive around in tanks. However, that would pose difficulties when internacting socially or when trying to stay covert. And, as always, if the PCs can, so can the NPCs. I udnerstand that many GMs would like to avoid an arms race b/w the players and his NPCs, but if the players are being anal about boosting their characters to the limits of the rules, they will soon realise that they are facing God and may focus on other things than maximising armour...

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Wed, 2010-02-17 12:10

#21

pyrotechnomimus pyrotechnomimus's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

It's really easy to deal with characters like this: Alternatives. Whenever I face a player who has an abundance of armor to the point that they are immune to anything but massive weapon fire, I look for alternatives to that character's goal. Does one of the other player's need to hack and be defended? I there a nano-swarm spray that can hurt him? What about acid? What about giving them a job they might be ideal for but not have enough alternative skills to succeed on 100% like a bodyguard position? There are so may non-combat situations that I'd suggest to every player that they first look at style over game mechanics. I also look for those special kinds of weapons - Shredders can do 4d10+16 at -10 AP. With a character with 34 armor, that means 24 armor, and averaging 38 damage, means FA close range shredders doing 14 on average to this character. Might take a while, but it's there. Mix in other traps and that person leading the way you don't have to go easy and instead just bombard him with traps. Etc. Example: Making my own character has made me realize that I didn't want to stack extra layers on top of what I had because it wouldn't make sense for the character. Instead I stuck it out with just massively altered armored vest, because that made sense ICly for the character.

Sat, 2010-04-03 17:30

#22

UpliftedOctopi UpliftedOctopi's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

@standard-g The fact that something can be done DOES mean, necessarily, that it will bring about its very own batch of problems. Thats life. But I think allowing characters to explore a "magical" technology sci-fi games is one of the BEST parts of Eclipse Phase. I haven't played a combat viable astrophysicist in any other games. And even if Reapers are unbalanced... GM'S HAVE THE M TOO!!!!! and they're free for us, players have to buy somehow. We can throw as many as we want at them.

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Tue, 2010-04-06 07:34

#23

standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

UpliftedOctopi, I think we said more or less the same things in our posts :)

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Tue, 2010-04-06 07:43

#24

lathe

Re: Carapace and other things

Way to bring the thread back though ... digest update for carapace.. really? =P

Tue, 2010-04-06 13:08

#25

UpliftedOctopi UpliftedOctopi's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

My apologies, I missed the "the gm gets them too" in your statements. (more digest update)

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Tue, 2010-04-20 06:09

#26

Young Freud Young Freud's picture

Re: Carapace and other things

OneTrikPony wrote:
Altho I think the most compelling reason not to allow the Reaper to wear armor is that it's basically a big smart material Hocky Puck that can extrude arms and legs if it wants too.

I'm starting to think of variants which look more like a tank turret than a hockey puck or a circular saw blade. Then it could strap on reactive armor and be a hell-on-wheel.

Tue, 2010-04-20 06:43

#27

Smokeskin

Re: Carapace and other things

All you have to do is spend a point of Moxie to upgrade to a crit, whoop dee doo all that layered armor is gone. Allowing players high armor is imo very problematic. It makes it nearly impossible to balance the opposition when allowing for crits. Either you have a situation where nothing even scratches the players unless the enemy crits, or you have a situation where a crit pretty much drops them instantly.