"[i]Remember, genes are NOT blueprints. This means you can't, for example, insert "the genes for an elephant's trunk" into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There are no genes for trunks. What you CAN do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals. For instance, we can in theory splice the native plants' talent for nitrogen fixation into a terran plant.[/i]" Prokhor Zakharov, Nonlinear Genetics From my (admittedly limited) understanding of genetics, traits that are innately biological (i.e. they're encoded in the morphs genes[sup]1[/sup]) would/could be encoded in the 46 chromosomes of the biomorph. If two biomorphs of different kinds then attempted to have a child completely without any medical assistance, the result would be that the resulting zygote would have a random selection of the genes for the traits of both parents. This doesn't necessarily mean that the fully developed morph will have the fully expressed traits (e.g. pre-installed bioware[sup]1[/sup]) of their parents. As stated in the quote above, genes aren't blueprints. Instead, they're instructions for how to make proteins and the fractal structures and stuff that give rise to larger organs. However, since the organs (and, hence, transhuman "unnatural" organs) are the product of these genes working together, the combination of two genetic codes from two differently coded sources could give rise to conflicts or simply the lack of all the parts necessary to create a full structure. Or, perhaps, two different strings of DNA will fight over the space they need to form an organ. You might end up with a form of auto-chimerism, where a single organ is made from two completely different phenotypes. For example, if both parents had genetically altered eye-colours (red & blue, for simplicity), the child might end up with some shade of purple as a result of both red and blue pigments being expressed. Or they might end up with heterochromia or sector-heterochromia. (In terms of EP, they might end up with Enhanced Vision in only one eye.) And that's a relatively mild example. If you're unlucky, you might end up in a situation where part of the transhuman genotype is missing, so the child ends up with a faulty phenotype and the resulting complications. Imagine that only half the stuff needed to grow a bioware organ is present, so you end up with one that doesn't work. Half of a drug-gland would and could lead to some rather interesting complications, such as the drug being dumped uncontrolled or improperly synthesized, leading to severe complications and/or poisoning. You'd essentially get weird half-breed babies. (I don't know very much about genetics...) Now, one thing that was suggested by another poster in an earlier thread on this subject is that the more radical alterations to the biomorph's biochemistry could be encoded in extraneous chromosomes (a 47th, a 48th, etc.), such that they could easily be removed from the sex cells by specialized proteins, which would allow for a "standard" set of genes (some form of Splicer would be most likely, though I imagine Rusters would produce Rusters, and Remade Remade) to be passed on to the zygote-stage. [1]: It seems unlikely to me that installing bioware in a morph would completely alter it on the genetic level due to the immense job it would be to rewrite every single strand of DNA in the body. Installing minor bioware takes 1 hour in a Healing Vat, and even with 12 hours for major bioware, we're talking about 10[sup]13[/sup] to 10[sup]14[/sup] cells that each must be rewritten. For comparison, the book gives 3 days timeframe for "Major physical modifications like adding limbs or radical changes to height and weight."; anatomical changes like this probably involve having to rewrite the majority of the homeobox genes of the body (and also time to grow the new limb, which already is a timescale of 12 hours given the time needed to regrow one - of course, you can't have extra biological limbs going by a literal reading of the rules, so it's more likely the time needed to install the socket for a Cyberlimb Plus), or at the very least in the local area (which for "radical changes to height and weight" would be very large parts of the body). I find it more likely, from a very technical viewpoint, that most after-production bioware is installed as, essentially, a special form of chimerism wherein the organ is grown (using the recipients DNA as a base) inside their body, essentially as a foreign object or, if you will, parasite.

SEÑOR FASE wrote:

Hi! So, no simple (short) answers, no page ref number...Yes? SF

Definitly not short, yes. Just look at what the guys posted after you ^^ We don't even know what the most used way of procreation in Eclipse Phase is. We know, people have casual sex, yes. But how a new ego is produced is a big question with many different answers.

LatwPIAT wrote:

It seems unlikely to me that installing bioware in a morph would completely alter it on the genetic level due to the immense job it would be to rewrite every single strand of DNA in the body. Installing minor bioware takes 1 hour in a Healing Vat, and even with 12 hours for major bioware, we're talking about 10[sup]13[/sup] to 10[sup]14[/sup] cells that each must be rewritten. For comparison, the book gives 3 days timeframe for "Major physical modifications like adding limbs or radical changes to height and weight."; anatomical changes like this probably involve having to rewrite the majority of the homeobox genes of the body (and also time to grow the new limb, which already is a timescale of 12 hours given the time needed to regrow one - of course, you can't have extra biological limbs going by a literal reading of the rules, so it's more likely the time needed to install the socket for a Cyberlimb Plus), or at the very least in the local area (which for "radical changes to height and weight" would be very large parts of the body). I find it more likely, from a very technical viewpoint, that most after-production bioware is installed as, essentially, a special form of chimerism wherein the organ is grown (using the recipients DNA as a base) inside their body, essentially as a foreign object or, if you will, parasite.

While I agree this is probably the most common means of adding bioware, it's not necessarily too difficult to genetically alter an organism so that newly-added bioware is grounded in the genetic code. Tailored retroviruses could be used post-implant to alter the transhumans genetics over time. So for instance, if you get toxin filters at your local genehacker's shop it'll take just an hour, but he can also inject a TRV or a nanoswarm into your system that alters your DNA in every cell over the course of weeks or months. Hence the reason that it's very possible for bioware to be a breedable trait.

Cifer wrote:

Considering the whole morph thing is still comparably new, I'd assume that just like modern day modified plant seed, most morphs won't breed true, not even when paired with another morph of the same kind. Not taking fertility and "truebreeding" into account will allow a morph designer access to a lot more shortcuts.

Tough to say. Transhuman morphs have existed in the setting for 30-50 years now, and transgenic mods have been around for 70+ years, so the tech is very mature. Genetically modified plant seeds breed true already today (Monsanto corn is bred by farmers all the time, they just have to pay fees to Monsanto or risk patent suits). My guess is that breeding is perfectly possible, it's just a question of whether these traits are placed in as breedable, or whether people work under the assumption that your first body doesn't have to be your best.

Cifer wrote:

That said, I'd consider it likely that the Ultimates are working on a Remade morph that can naturally breed true (or maybe they don't care about that at all and have abolished reproctive capabilities in their morphs altogether - that probably depends on the specific ultimate's personal philosophy).

My guess is that most morphs breed fine within their own clades. The only real question that arises is how they breed when you mix clades... what do you get when you cross a Remade with a Futura, or an Octomorph with a Neo-Cetacean (if their chromosome count isn't so drastically different that it's impossible).

There is a few problems that I've yet seen mentioned. Sorry if I missed them. I've gotten the impression that many morphs have "standard lines". What I mean by that is there are many copies (clones) of an individual in a specific morph type. While it is possible to get a custom splicer, there are many generic mass produced ones from these "standard lines" available. This has been mentioned in the books (don't remember where) that there are habs where everyone is in the same morph. It seems to me that attempting to breed these "standard lines" among themselves would require in-utero modifications to avoid the pitfalls of inbreeding. While this may not seem like a big deal, the human species in EP has just barely avoided extinction (maybe). Having as much genetic diversity as possible would seem like the way to go. What would happen to an exocolony of synths and explorer morphs that gets cut off from its gate, if it doesn't have the tech to prevent this inbreeding issue? Without the advanced medical nanotech the entire colony, and human species in general, could go belly up. Then there's the issue of what's been lost. Many people didn't get off planet, and many that did went without bodies. This represents a massive loss of genetic diversity. These days many people put a great importance on being genetically related to their offspring. (I argue that if this wasn't the case, In Vitro and surrogates would be rare and the would be no need for orphanages.) If this still exists, how can you have a child and feel like it's yours if the child is a Caucasian splicer while the parents are fall evacuees who egocasted from Africa and Asia? Their DNA is lost, or in the claws of the Titans. Never again to be passed on to a new generation. Plus what DNA would be used in an exo-womb if the parents are evacuees in synths? They're not contributing DNA so who gets to decide what DNA goes into the child? Which leads me to the nature versus nurture debate, but I'm not going into that now. Seems to me that it would be best to make it as simple as possible. Make all morphs breed true and create as much genetic diversity in them as possible. As to which parent the child will take after? I suggest taking the Blue Planet approach. That is an RPG (listed as a reference in EP core book) from FFG that is now out of print. In BP they'd sent colonists to this water world. All of them (called Aquaforms) where modified to function on this planet. While generally the same there where two types divided by respiration, Squids which had gills, and Divers which have the respiratory system of marine mammals (collapsible lungs). These two groups were cross-fertile (even with humans, if I remember correctly) and where modified to allow for this. The mother's eggs contained the genetic modifications, while the father's sperm did not. As a result, Aquaform children always take after their mothers irregardless of dad's genotype. Squid mommies had Squid babies, period. So Children take after their mothers morph. OK that's my two bucks. I think I covered everything. Let's see.

Decimator wrote:

The thing is, the pitfalls of inbreeding mostly do not apply when both morphs are genefixed. Dangerous recessive genes have all been removed!

Evolution dictates that mutations will occur in biological organisms. I doubt genefixing will stop that process without ongoing maintenance. Should transhumanity lose genefixing or lose access to it (the colony scenario I mentioned) there could be serious issues. While EP does mention that morphs are designed to survive in their new space based environments, germline mutations may still find a way to occur. Hence the old "life finds a way" argument.

See, what I'm curious about is how it works for infomorphs and synthmorphs. Sure, they can't biologically reproduce, but that's not gonna stop people. Merging forks from different people tends to have nasty results, on a 'full' brain. Merging a pair of delta forks might get you something simple-minded, with lots of room to learn, and some traits from both parents. Raising it quickly through overclocking is a bad idea, but in real-time in a community, you might end up making the second generation of transhumans.

Elfface wrote:

See, what I'm curious about is how it works for infomorphs and synthmorphs. Sure, they can't biologically reproduce, but that's not gonna stop people. Merging forks from different people tends to have nasty results, on a 'full' brain. Merging a pair of delta forks might get you something simple-minded, with lots of room to learn, and some traits from both parents. Raising it quickly through overclocking is a bad idea, but in real-time in a community, you might end up making the second generation of transhumans.

Greg Bear discussed this topic in his book 'Eon' (a largely post human society that did some very strange things with causality and paid the price for it). Basically, their transhumanist factions found a way to take what they called 'the mystery' or source code/kernel from two people and synthesize a new consciousness from it - essentially 'birthing' transhumans into a very detailed and hyper-realistic simulation of real life and growing them up from there. Personally I thought the author engaged in more than a bit of hand waveium in most of his novel but the idea of building a new consciousness from the core of two donors is at least worth a mention here.

This is an excellent topic; however I have to wonder how often it comes up in game play? How big of an impact on your players is this? I’m not trying to be a troll, but I can’t remember ever having one of my players in any game come up to me and say “Hey, I want to have my character get pregnant.” With EPs technology, unwanted pregnancy (if even possible) shouldn’t be a factor. So my main question is other than a setting thing, is this a major impact on your game? (This question is open to anyone who wants to answer, not just the OP.)

It's funny, I was actually planning to do a whole campaign arc around this topic, so I've appreciated the discussion. I think Firewall would care deeply if there was a new way for transhumanity to expand its numbers. A failure to reproduce seems like an existential threat. Also, in light of the current problem of gathering enough resources to create morphs for the digitized masses, a natural birthing method would be a great supplemental means to spreading the transhuman presence.

tsedeq wrote:

A failure to reproduce seems like an existential threat. Also, in light of the current problem of gathering enough resources to create morphs for the digitized masses, a natural birthing method would be a great supplemental means to spreading the transhuman presence.

Actually I see it from the flip side of the coin. Providing a biomorph for everyone who wants one is only part of the issue. There is no human freindly biosphere in the Sol System any longer. Not anywhere. So it's not just bout growing and giving people Splicers or even Pods. It's the fact that you also have to provide them with all of the infrastructure needed to keep them alive. There aren't that many people in cold storage or simulspace who can produce enough to provide a return on that investment. So, I think that people who make babies while real people are still waiting in line for their "40 acres and a menton" are viewed as selfish asshats.

Quote:

So, I think that people who make babies while real people are still waiting in line for their "40 acres and a menton" are viewed as selfish asshats.

I see what you're saying, but I think the real limitation in creating morphs for infugees must be whatever rare materials morphs require, or maybe the production process is just very slow. I haven't read all the source materials yet, maybe something out there explains why it is taking so long to create enough morphs and my previous sentence is complete BS. If there was some parallel biological way to create morphs without relying on rare materials or a lengthy production process, this wouldn't influence the rate at which infomorphs could be retrieved from cold storage. Currently the biggest "selfish asshats" I see are the firewall sentinels who keep resleeving after missions. Also, I think the idea of biological reproduction has interesting possibilities for adventures. Firewall could send a colonizing gatecrashing team with biological reproductive abilities, increasing the chances (however small of an increase, it would still be an increase) of thriving if something unforeseen were to happen to their access to morph technology. Or, the characters could be sent to eliminate a morph but face a moral dilemma when they learn it is somehow pregnant. Or maybe some transhumans are dedicated to biological reproduction for religious reasons and are facing persecution.

OneTrikPony wrote:

However; You, Mr. Arenamontanus, should be teased for linking to a list of science fiction that includes Twilight and the Power Puff Girls! :b

I am secure in my adulthood and masculinity. :-) BTW, continuing the io9 sourcing, here is an anti-adorable robot baby: http://io9.com/5878154/this-robotic-baby-crawled-out-of-your-nightmares I think this kind of thing is the explanation why people actually want morphs that take 3 years to grow and look down/fear pods. Because underneath that flesh there is a little clawed robomonstrosity...

Michael Crichton wrote:

And in fact, from a copyright standpoint, the corporate designers have a very good reason to have as many heterozygous traits as possible, to prevent their proprietary morphs from being 'pirated' via sexual reproduction.

Assuming they haven't simply found a way for the morph in question to produce zygotes with completely different genetics from the rest of the body. This to me would be the easiest means to prevent "sexual piracy". Ah, sexual piracy. The only type of piracy that people are enthusiastic about trying.

OneTrikPony wrote:

However; You, Mr. Arenamontanus, should be teased for linking to a list of science fiction that includes Twilight and the Power Puff Girls! :b

You got something to say about the Powerpuff Girls? :P

I was thinking about this the other day and wondering, if you control the exowomb, how much utility is there in modifying the genetic code for a custom biomorph anyway? If you're growing a fury, sure you'll start with a splicer base, since the work has already been done. But then, if you're trying to encourage muscle growth, or female characteristics or whatnot, you can either figure out what hormone is required, what portion of the DNA affects production of that hormone, what the other side effects of messing with that segment of the DNA are, modify the DNA, test the DNA, then push it out; OR you can just inject those hormones directly into the exowomb. The idea of modifying the genetics of the morph seems analogous to modifying the genetics of a woman as a form of birth control. Even if it's effective, it's just not as cheap as taking a pill.

Arenamontanus wrote:

To turn it into an adventure: they get wind of where a backup of the database might have ended up. Unfortunately it is in absolutely the wrong place: it was a government server that ended up in the Jovian Republic. Now they want to hire the PCs to get the genomes.

A plot twist could then be that the desired sample of genome is already being (or has been) used to create a child.

Not sure if this has already been covered, but would a 'naturally born' body / morph be worth any more on the open market than a vat grown one?

But as you point out, to an eccentric collector, a 'flat' would potentially have a very high value. I guess the same could be said for animals that were saved from the Fall. It all reminds me of Bladerunner... ... now there's an idea!!