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Christmas in EP

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Sat, 2011-12-17 00:41
#1
terranova210486 terranova210486's picture
Christmas in EP
Since it's nearly Christmas, it occured to me that Christmas may still be celebrated in After Fall era. Any ideas?
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Sat, 2011-12-17 05:06
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
terranova210486 wrote:
Since it's nearly Christmas, it occured to me that Christmas may still be celebrated in After Fall era. Any ideas?
It's kind of tough to say. Christmas has, historically, come and gone in surges. It was pretty popular among some sects in early Christendom (about 400-800 AD), but fell out of use as it took a backseat to the celebration of Epiphany. It didn't make a comeback until the reign of Charlemagne, as he was crowned on Christmas day. The Protestant Reformation caused it to go underground again, because Puritans hated the shit out of this holiday. It didn't make another comeback until the 19th century, after Charles Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol. It probably would have died out again, but it's resurgence was aided by the retail industry (it had been looking for years for some way to get people buying during the winter... it used to be the worst time of the year to run a store). In many ways, Christmas today is less about Christ and more about the retail industry maintaining a high-sales winter period. While it may have lost a lot of it's religious significance with the rising popularity of secularism in the Eclipse Phase universe, there's a very real possibility that the concept of Christmas has been maintained by hypercorps looking to create an annual purchase surge. Of course, this purchase surge may very well be part of a new holiday that was created to replace Christmas, one that may even come about quicker than simply once every 365 days (no need to tie it to Earth's calendar anymore since no one seems to live there).
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sat, 2011-12-17 11:50
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
you could tie Christmas with the inauguration of the Planetary Consortium or a specific habitat. Another fun idea is to totally displace Christmas in the calendar and mess with the characters' (and players') head. This could be a meme attack on a specific hab or simulspace. think about the season finale of Haven, when everybody except Audrey thought it was Christmas in the middle of July! Seeing Duke in Santa costume was just so fun!
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Thu, 2011-12-22 11:57
Torque2100 Torque2100's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
Actually, Christmas as we know it today can be traced almost directly to the Christmas Truce of the first world war. During the 19th century, Christmas was kind of a second rate holiday in England and the United States. It was the dead of Winter so people would use any excuse to gather around A fire with the family to roast chestnuts and drink eggnog. In Germany, however, the Feast of Saint Nicholas is and has always been a big deal. The Christmas tree and most Christmas carols were largely unknown until British and American soldiers saw what the Germans were doing and decided that gathering around a tree full of candles and singing songs sounded better than freezing their butts off in a muddy trench. As far as holidays go in Eclipse Phase, celibrations are probably more of a fashion statement than anything else. Who celebrates what can change from one year to the next and vary widely between habs. The lower class citizens in the inner system probably have few to no holidays. Having to plan for days off is a nightmare and ruins productivity. As for the Inner Syatem Glitteratti, I immagine that the Saturnine Festival is pretty popular. I mean, who doesn't like the idea of a week-long drunken orgy?
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Thu, 2011-12-22 12:00
Torque2100 Torque2100's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
(Sorry for the double post. Sometimes my smartphone decides to be a stupid phone,)
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Thu, 2011-12-22 13:55
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
Torque2100 wrote:
Actually, Christmas as we know it today can be traced almost directly to the Christmas Truce of the first world war. During the 19th century, Christmas was kind of a second rate holiday in England and the United States. It was the dead of Winter so people would use any excuse to gather around A fire with the family to roast chestnuts and drink eggnog.
Not so much in America. The popularity of A Christmas Carol pushed it overseas into American bookstores in the 1860s, and became popular here by the end of the decade. Retailers used the sudden popularity of the holiday and the gift-giving themes of the book to create a buying surge in the dead of winter... a period of time that used to be when stores would close up for a month or two. Admittedly, most of the traditions we have today (caroling, Christmas trees, Christmas dinner) started around when you're talking about, and Christmas didn't become a very religious holiday in America until the 1950s (so there was no war on Christmas... Christmas invaded first!). Hell, Santa's look wasn't even concrete until the 50s and 60s, and we can thank Andy Warhol for current look and design.
Torque2100 wrote:
In Germany, however, the Feast of Saint Nicholas is and has always been a big deal. The Christmas tree and most Christmas carols were largely unknown until British and American soldiers saw what the Germans were doing and decided that gathering around a tree full of candles and singing songs sounded better than freezing their butts off in a muddy trench.
Very true. A lot of these traditions started disappearing in the 20s, as people's memories of the Great War started to fade, but renewed interest came about in the 30s, when rich people tried to bring it back in order to get people's minds off of... well, starving and stuff.
Torque2100 wrote:
As far as holidays go in Eclipse Phase, celibrations are probably more of a fashion statement than anything else. Who celebrates what can change from one year to the next and vary widely between habs. The lower class citizens in the inner system probably have few to no holidays. Having to plan for days off is a nightmare and ruins productivity. As for the Inner Syatem Glitteratti, I immagine that the Saturnine Festival is pretty popular. I mean, who doesn't like the idea of a week-long drunken orgy?
Yeah, I imagine that holidays in 10 AF are generally more personal, with individual habs celebrating their founding and other special days amongst the inhabitants, while travelers celebrate the holidays from their own habs in a personal way. Plus, because habitats can have day/night cycles that vary from 24 hours, and orbital cycles that vary from 365 days, this means that holidays are likely more varied in interval and length. Then there's the Carnival of the Goat. Everyday is a celebration in the Carnival of the Goat.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Fri, 2011-12-23 22:21
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
I'm rather curious about this question myself, because Christmas is now as much a cultural celebration as it is religious. People who never go to church any other day of the year still go on Christmas, or celebrate it even if they don't. It's pretty much an excuse to have fun and buy stuff for people. As such, Christmas will stick around, even in a secular society, but only if the cultural saturation is high enough. Post-Fall population demographics are fun to ponder, and, in areas filled with people from largely English-speaking regions, Christmas is likely celebrated. People whose primary language is French, Spanish, etc. are probably similarly inclined but it's not so certain. However, a significant portion of the population speaks Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc. These are people from cultures that are much less likely to know or celebrate Christmas. They are no doubt familiar with them as a phenomenon but it's not a part of their demographic. So, where am I going with this? Why, syncretism, of course! I imagine there's all sorts of very bizarre blending of culture and of ideas. Santa Claus is probably far from uncommon in iconography but he might look very different. Santa's gift-giving could be co-opted and he might even end up represented as Bodhisattva Claus, whose kindness and compassion is a guide to others to not be attached to material possessions and give freely to bring joy to the hearts of others. Hotei-osho might even make an appearance among predominately ethnically Japanese habitats. Already fairly syncretic today, Japan's people have a history of merging various cultural beliefs with those of other cultures. It makes for interesting results. And, of course, with Luna's largely ethnically Indian population, festivals abound. Indian festivals are often quite colourful affairs too, and, given Luna's affinity for green-space, I can't imagine they're exactly kept private or secluded. Of course, there's definitely some Christians out there who celebrate it in the traditional way but habs as a whole probably see it as a way to encourage friendship and closeness. When your populations are so small, big festivals are probably much easier to organize and just that much more bombastic.
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Tue, 2011-12-27 11:51
urdith urdith's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
And here I thought everyone celebrated Xmas:
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"The ruins of the unsustainable are the 21st century’s frontier." — Bruce Sterling
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Mon, 2012-01-02 05:40
kustenjaeger kustenjaeger's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
Greetings A bit off topic:
Torque2100 wrote:
Actually, Christmas as we know it today can be traced almost directly to the Christmas Truce of the first world war. During the 19th century, Christmas was kind of a second rate holiday in England and the United States. It was the dead of Winter so people would use any excuse to gather around A fire with the family to roast chestnuts and drink eggnog. In Germany, however, the Feast of Saint Nicholas is and has always been a big deal. The Christmas tree and most Christmas carols were largely unknown until British and American soldiers saw what the Germans were doing and decided that gathering around a tree full of candles and singing songs sounded better than freezing their butts off in a muddy trench.
The Christmas Tree was introduced to the UK by Queen Charlotte in the early 19th century and popularized in mid century by Queen Victoria whence it spread to the US. Christmas carols in the UK were popularized in the 1840s and appeared in hymn books in the UK and US in that century. The current 'image' of Christmas was more or less created by Dickens in 'Christmas Carol' in 1843. It's true to say that there was a lot of German import into Christmas traditions in the UK and US. However there is no evidence that the Christmas Truce of 1914 - where British troops certainly witnessed German miniature candle lit trees - had anything to do with it. Both sides in fact sang carols to one another, exchanged gifts etc as these were established traditions. After 1914 there were no truces. Reverting more to topic - it wouldn't be surprising if there was some celebration but its method of celebration may well be completely different. Christmas has been re-invented many times historically (and indeed banned at at least one point) so you'd expect major reinvention. Regards
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Edward
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Mon, 2012-01-02 14:29
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
kustenjaeger wrote:
Greetings A bit off topic: The Christmas Tree was introduced to the UK by Queen Charlotte in the early 19th century and popularized in mid century by Queen Victoria whence it spread to the US. Christmas carols in the UK were popularized in the 1840s and appeared in hymn books in the UK and US in that century. The current 'image' of Christmas was more or less created by Dickens in 'Christmas Carol' in 1843. It's true to say that there was a lot of German import into Christmas traditions in the UK and US. However there is no evidence that the Christmas Truce of 1914 - where British troops certainly witnessed German miniature candle lit trees - had anything to do with it. Both sides in fact sang carols to one another, exchanged gifts etc as these were established traditions. After 1914 there were no truces.
The industrial revolution was in mid-swing by the time the Great War came about, and Christmas was on a severe decline. The ravages of World War I did cause a revival of the popularity of Christmas. Now whether it was due to the Christmas Truce or simply due to the heightened fear of the time is completely speculative, but the fact that the war revived it's practice is fact.
kustenjaeger wrote:
Reverting more to topic - it wouldn't be surprising if there was some celebration but its method of celebration may well be completely different. Christmas has been re-invented many times historically (and indeed banned at at least one point) so you'd expect major reinvention. Regards
Agreed. As I said before, new landscapes and a more fragmented human culture may cause not just the alteration of Christmas, but it's splintering into several holidays which occur at many points in the Earthen year. In fact, the basic concept of a single gift-giving holiday may be a common replacement to the modern practice of celebrating birthdays, since long lifespans and varied solar rotations make keeping track of birthdays somewhat hectic to begin with. Christmas as a religious holiday is largely a surging fad that has only been popular for 150 years (despite existing for 1¼ millennia), while the concept of a gift-giving festival is near-timeless, and will by far outlive every religion.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Thu, 2012-01-05 15:12
Melankholia Melankholia's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
I'm rather curious about this question myself, because Christmas is now as much a cultural celebration as it is religious. People who never go to church any other day of the year still go on Christmas, or celebrate it even if they don't. It's pretty much an excuse to have fun and buy stuff for people. As such, Christmas will stick around, even in a secular society, but only if the cultural saturation is high enough. Post-Fall population demographics are fun to ponder, and, in areas filled with people from largely English-speaking regions, Christmas is likely celebrated. People whose primary language is French, Spanish, etc. are probably similarly inclined but it's not so certain. ...
An anecdotal perspective of a Christmas that is considerably more cultural than religious. I was raised by a Jehovah's Witness and a splinter, dualist Southern Baptist, neither of which ever celebrated Christmas in any kind their whole lives. There were never even Christmas trees or decorations in our house, but every single year we "celebrated" Christmas - my grandparents came over, everyone had a pleasant dinner, and I was the only one that received any gifts. None of this had [i]anything[/i] to do with whatever "Christmas" means to anyone else - my family just didn't want me to feel left out at school. I wouldn't have understood. In the American Mid-West there exists two "Christmas" events: one that is entirely fabricated and driven by capitalism, and a completely different celebration altogether for churches. Er, in short, I completely agree with Axel here. "Christmas" has simply become another intrinsic part of the American culture industry and, as such, I can't think of anything that would remove it. There is absolutely no connection to Christianity: that's left for the churches. As for EP specifically, I can see the cultural hegemony of the United States spreading Christmas - along with a variety of other purely capital-driven holidays, which can already be seen around the world - subverting Canada, Central and South America. This quote may seem out of place, but the relentlessness of Horkheimer and Adorno's examination of the culture industry - as it was a mere sixty years ago - provides an example as to why Christmas, and many other purely "cultural" events, holidays, etc. could survive without a single remaining trapping that even necessitates their continued existence. Actually, a lot of [i]The Culture Industry: Enlightenment as Mass Deception[/i] is a shoe-in for EP (Planetary Consortium! :angry: ):
Quote:
The ruthless unity in the culture industry is evidence of what will happen in politics. Marked differentiations such as those of A and B films, or of stories in magazines in different price ranges, depend not so much on subject matter as on classifying, organising, and labelling consumers. Something is provided for all so that none may escape; the distinctions are emphasised and extended. The public is catered for with a hierarchical range of mass-produced products of varying quality, thus advancing the rule of complete quantification. Everybody must behave (as if spontaneously) in accordance with his previously determined and indexed level, and choose the category of mass product turned out for his type. Consumers appear as statistics on research organisation charts, and are divided by income groups into red, green, and blue areas; the technique is that used for any type of propaganda.
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Fri, 2012-01-06 05:46
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Christmas in EP
Melankholia wrote:
Er, in short, I completely agree with Axel here. "Christmas" has simply become another intrinsic part of the American culture industry and, as such, I can't think of anything that would remove it. There is absolutely no connection to Christianity: that's left for the churches. As for EP specifically, I can see the cultural hegemony of the United States spreading Christmas - along with a variety of other purely capital-driven holidays, which can already be seen around the world - subverting Canada, Central and South America.
While I agree with the sentiment that Christmas is now a very cultural element of American society today, I do not see it as being fundamentally irremovable. After all, the tradition of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_Day_%28New_York%29]Evacuation Day[/url] was celebrated for more than a century before it became completely subsumed by the more popular Thanksgiving celebration. If something else comes along that gains more popularity or some event overshadows it, there is a very real possibility that it will integrate or dissipate in practice. Imagine if the last escaping vessels left Earth near Christmas... it might create a brand new holiday altogether in the minds of evacuees. Plus, one has to remember that any amount of time could have passed between the modern day and the events that lead up to Eclipse Phase... if we are talking a timeline measured in centuries, there is plenty of time for Christmas to vanish (it has disappeared before, it can disappear again).
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Wed, 2013-10-23 05:28
thesensei thesensei's picture
Well guys, I am planning a one-shot Christmas EP adventure...
...so PM me should you be interested. It's GMT+1, Skype.
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Wed, 2013-10-23 06:53
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
When do you celebrate
When do you celebrate christmas? When it is December 24th on Earth, or December 24th on Mars or whatever local time you observe?
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Wed, 2013-10-23 06:54
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
What about birthdays? When
What about birthdays? When you travel around the system? Do Martians only get half as many birthdays because of the long Martian year? Or is it every 365 days? How old do you say people are, do you count Earth years or what?
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Wed, 2013-10-23 12:56
nerdnumber1 nerdnumber1's picture
Smokeskin wrote:What about
Smokeskin wrote:
What about birthdays? When you travel around the system? Do Martians only get half as many birthdays because of the long Martian year? Or is it every 365 days? How old do you say people are, do you count Earth years or what?
I think that there has to be some standardized time system if only for scheduling purposes, probably based on the old Earth solar Calender for legacy reasons. If you really want to mess with age though, try keeping track of time acceleration simulspace, continuity loss from death/ego casting, parallel existence from temporary forking, etc. You really can't put much stock in age at that point. As for Xmas celebration, I think you have to factor in the influence of media outlets that span multiple worlds. If the PC decides collectively to encourage Christmas through Christmas specials and bargains, it could help spread the holiday to inner system habs that lack this cultural background normally (though they may have their own twist on it). An anarchist Xmas would likely emphasize giving while an extropian or PC Xmas would emphasize capitalism, and a Jovian Xmas would likely have more religious overtones. Ultimates would probably get pissed at the whole idea and might train a little harder as they are reminded of the decadence and weakness that they seek to avoid. Mercurials might make their own new cultural holidays to keep the young ones from being bribed into trans human culture at this time.
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Sat, 2013-10-26 21:16
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Axel the Chimeric wrote
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
However, a significant portion of the population speaks Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc. These are people from cultures that are much less likely to know or celebrate Christmas. They are no doubt familiar with them as a phenomenon but it's not a part of their demographic.
Actually, from what I've read, Christmas is actually really popular in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_worldwide#Japan]Japan[/url], thanks to the influx of American culture following WW2, though it tends to be celebrated more as a romantic holiday with your partner than as a family gathering (since they already had that in the form of New Year's Day).
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Sat, 2013-10-26 22:15
Leodiensian Leodiensian's picture
nick012000 wrote:
nick012000 wrote:
Actually, from what I've read, Christmas is actually really popular in [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_worldwide#Japan]Japan[/url], thanks to the influx of American culture following WW2, though it tends to be celebrated more as a romantic holiday with your partner than as a family gathering (since they already had that in the form of New Year's Day).
That's true in most of Asia, including here in Korea and China to a lesser extent. While Christianity does have some significant support in Korea, it's still a fairly small cultural force. Most Western holidays are aimed either at schoolchildren or young couples, not family units or larger communities. That said, given that Catholicism is alive and well in the Jovian Republic, it makes sense that they'd be the ones most likely to celebrate lots of this stuff. Christmas, Easter, the days of notable saints and so on. Also, would the Reclaimer movement be interested in preserving Earth culture to the point of celebrating these holidays?
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