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Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?

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weaver95 weaver95's picture
Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
I'm curious - in 'old economy' terms how much would an ounce of computronium go for on the open market?
Myrmidont Myrmidont's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
You could reasonably justify setting your price at the net worth of the (Pre-fall) planet Earth, its inhabitants, and all information in storage and transmission. Who would pay such a price, though?
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weaver95 weaver95's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
soooo....a lot of money then.
Myrmidont Myrmidont's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
It's far more practical to ask "Who would buy such a thing?", and then determine what they had access and authorisation to trade. For example, Microsoft might trade billions of dollars for it. The US Department of Defence might also do such a thing. EDIT: Or, if you were 'selling' it to a Promethean, it might give you resources to make your own habitats and starships, or control over a Pandora Gate. Hell, it might even give you some of its CPU time, which would effectively allow you to hack whatever you want as long as a connection could be made. Gate addresses to pristine Earth-like worlds might also be viable trades.
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Myrmidont Myrmidont's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
Edit: Double post.
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Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
Just to be clear, Computronium refers to some undefinable stuff that just can be used for computing things, but is not understood, right? And it's usually applied to TITAN leftovers only, or to any piece of tech in EP that just cannot be defined by today's knowledge (so it's acting as a "placeholder" of sorts)? Personally, if Computronium applies only to TITAN tech, I wouldn't touch it even with a long stick, just in case... ^^
babayaga babayaga's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
I don't think computronium in modest quantities is particularly dangerous, or valuable. Most computers in the setting have a small core of what basically boils down to computronium. The problems start when you put enough of it together to bootstrap a seed AI, AND you start running the appropriate software on it. An ounce would not be nearly enough (I think one of the printed adventures says that a few large slabs of computronium only contain fragments of a Titan). The question is a little like asking: how much is an ounce of uranium worth today? Not much. But you start acquiring it in large quantities, and separating U238 from U235... now, *that* means trouble.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
babayaga wrote:
The question is a little like asking: how much is an ounce of uranium worth today? Not much. But you start acquiring it in large quantities, and separating U238 from U235... now, *that* means trouble.
The going price for plutonium today is about $10,000/g, to be compared with gold at around $58/g. (Did I mention I love having a job where looking up things like this is normal?) There is computronium and there is computronium. It is a bit like asking what a microchip is worth - microprocessors are really expensive, while an old 555 time IC is quite cheap today. It also depends on the usability and who wants to buy it. As I see it, basic TITAN computational modules are uncommon but not unknown. The stuff that was in Glory was not too different from normal pre-Fall computing matrices, and there are no doubt lots of the stuff lying around (and being dangerous). The major groups all have samples and blueprints. Not worth much in itself, except if you sell it to crazies and shady people who want it for bad reasons. Then there is the late TITAN stuff like the Iapetus construction. This is high-level stuff that is beyond transhuman comprehension but likely nowhere near the ultimate limits of physics (it runs on molecules, after all). This is rare and scary, but there are a few places where you can find it. Various groups are interested in getting samples and studying it; it is expensive but not instant millionaire. Then there is the true postsingularity stuff, the things that is not even built according to anything transhuman science has conceived of. This is the thing that gatecrashers and others really crave: just by existing it advances science enormously, and people who get to study it expect to benefit immensely. If you find something that looks it would be useful (and not just dangerously incomprehensible) you are a rich person. But the value depends on the abilities to analyse things. In the above Pentium vs 555 comparison, imagine that you gave a circuit board holding the chip to Edison or Tesla. I think both with a bit of ingenuity, effort and luck would quickly figure out what the 555 was doing. The Pentium would not make much sense - they would understand amplifiers, flipflops and timers (555 stuff), but they would have no concept of digital logic, memory and machine code. Picking apart the chips they would learn roughly the same: important ideas about semiconductors, but the 555 would be easy to study to reveal *how* it did all those useful thing while the Pentium would just be complex. While it may have been a challenge for Edison or Tesla to figure out how to make semiconductors, dope them and make a transistor at least, they would have learned more from the 555 than the Pentium. So in the case of computronium, the "simple" TITAN stuff is really useful for advancing electronics and computer science because it is not totally beyond transhumans. Companies pay for reverse engineering, and less cutting edge groups use it to try to leapfrog ahead. The super-advanced stuff is important mainly as an inspiration and demonstration, it is rarely possible to understand. I would imagine Edison would have paid handsomely for a computer motherboard, but it would mostly have been a desk decoration. The exception is of course near-singularity entities like the Prometheans and their cousins. They actually can reverse engineer some of the advanced stuff.
Extropian
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
Of course, anything *really* valuable is worthless. They'll just take it from you, instead. :)
babayaga babayaga's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
Arenamontanus wrote:
babayaga wrote:
The question is a little like asking: how much is an ounce of uranium worth today? Not much. But you start acquiring it in large quantities, and separating U238 from U235... now, *that* means trouble.
The going price for plutonium today is about $10,000/g, to be compared with gold at around $58/g. (Did I mention I love having a job where looking up things like this is normal?)
I'm not sure how plutonium got dragged into this discussion :) The market price of *Uranium* (or more precisely, Uranium oxide -- U3O8) today is between 0.10$ and 0.20$ per gram. Right *now* it's about 0.12$/gram, so the cost of (enough Uranium oxide to contain) an ounce of Uranium is less than 4 dollars.
babayaga babayaga's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
Honestly, how far beyond current transhuman capabilities is computronium is not really clear. My impression is that you do not need that much (transhuman level) computational power to bootstrap a seed AI. This is one of the really cool aspects of Eclipse Phase -- characters who see enough computational machinery to fill a large room get *scared*, because that's enough computational power to birth a Titan given a little (and totally within transhuman capabilities) push.
weaver95 weaver95's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
Ok, so...computronium can be valuable, and it can be freaky. So could it be formed into everyday objects? Imagine forming computronium into say...jewelry. you could access it via your mesh implants and use it to supplement your local computations. I'm thinking maybe a boost to your hacking skill(s). as for the weirder TITAN made stuff....how about this? it does the same stuff as the 'normal' computronium but it looks a bit more weird (spiky clusters of glowing crystal, a plain gold ring that shows weirdly glowing computer code when exposed to open flame, blah blah) and it starts doing strange things to your mesh UI. maybe it optimizes things in a weird fashion - your AR starts working better, but you can't get rid of certain icons. your Muse starts quoting nursery rhymes at 3am local time and can't stop. your mesh implants start developing a soundtrack and acting like you're in a movie. your mesh buys you hypercorp stock and earns you a small profit, then dumps the stock. you suddenly get 'Terminator vision' overlays on your AR while at dinner. i'm just kicking around the idea of my players eventually finding some computronium. not sure how far I want to go with it yet though. at this stage of the writing its just an option on the table.
babayaga babayaga's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
weaver95 wrote:
Ok, so...computronium can be valuable, and it can be freaky. So could it be formed into everyday objects? Imagine forming computronium into say...jewelry. you could access it via your mesh implants and use it to supplement your local computations. I'm thinking maybe a boost to your hacking skill(s).
The catch is that computronium *per*se* is not a magical substance. It just allows you to run very large, complex computations on it. Is this going to help you? Maybe. For some computations -- say, running a really really accurate, really really long simulation of Mars weather patterns -- yes, it's going to help you a lot. For others (creating an AI with SAV 40) not unless you develop some really complex software. For others (running a really, really good chef AI) not at all. Jewelry that gives you a boost to your hacking skills falls in this last category: you do not need computronium, just a cheap Ecto with a helpful AI on. If you want a greater boost, you don't have to work on the hardware, but on the software. Let me repeat again. It's not computronium that's scary in EP. It's a sufficient mass of computational power, because from it it's relatively easy to summon an evil, nearly omniscient and omnipotent god. The really scary part is that this critical mass is relatively low -- something easily within the reach of a worryingly high number of transhuman entities armed with "stock" computational technologies. That's scary!
weaver95 weaver95's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
babayaga wrote:
Let me repeat again. It's not computronium that's scary in EP. It's a sufficient mass of computational power, because from it it's relatively easy to summon an evil, nearly omniscient and omnipotent god. The really scary part is that this critical mass is relatively low -- something easily within the reach of a worryingly high number of transhuman entities. That's scary!
ah, ok. got it. And nobody really knows for sure just what's 'critical mass' for computronium to turn into an evil obscene mad god.
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
I'd say "whatever amount suits the story best". In fact, with the rules in your hand, you can make a TITAN in your ecto. Eventually, the TITAN will reach a limit of optimization where it cannot get mor efficient inside the ecto. In a recursive cycle: make a self-improving program (call it CLU if you want ;) ), run it inside a cheap ecto. After a time, the program will reach top efficiency (it would take less time to reach that point inside a more potent system). So CLU wants to conquer the real... I mean, expand. Meaning leaving the system for another with better capacity/potential. Eventually, CLU will run out of "more powerful systems", so he will start designing it. I bet Iapetus' computronium brain is just that: the last hardware developed by the TITANS for the last steps in their optimization and designing of the Pandora Gates. Which could have been used by the ETI has a beachhead to conquer transhumanity, if the ETI were not extinct (or evolved past the material plane, those frigging Ancients!). As for the "computronium into jewelry", I'd say that you can, at most, get a portable, hiding and ever-with-you Quantum Computer. Which by itself is quite a piece of gear.
Myrmidont Myrmidont's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
I would just like to clarify that when the OP said "old world economy" I assumed he was talking about "today's" prices, and being injected into the economy in the year 2011. Sorry, I think I misunderstood.
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weaver95 weaver95's picture
Re: Oddball question - how much is computronium worth?
Myrmidont wrote:
I would just like to clarify that when the OP said "old world economy" I assumed he was talking about "today's" prices, and being injected into the economy in the year 2011. Sorry, I think I misunderstood.
no, that was the original question...but I think we suffered from a bit of 'mission creep' as we moved along the path. its all good man. I got a good feel for the answer to my question.