Transgenderism and EP | Eclipse Phase

Mon, 2011-09-19 16:22

#2

AdamJury

Re: Transgenderism and EP

The same post is mirrored on another blog, and there is much more discussion there: http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=3098

Mon, 2011-09-19 16:35

#3

bakho

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Oh, awesome. I saw that it was reposted, but didn't scroll down to the comments. Thanks. *goes to read the follow-up discussion*

—

The only principle t

Mon, 2011-09-19 17:50

#4

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

It is an interesting little essay. And I agree that EP is one of the few games where trans-people are simply there, without being jokes or 'special'. A bit like the illustration in Sunward with the gay couple, which I remembered had a comment by one of the creators remarking on the rarity of such couples as rpg illustrations. Of course the slinkiness of the Morningstar diplomat may have more to do with choosing a morph for a particular manipulative purpose - both within and without the game. When you can look like whatever you want, your look become a means of communication.

—

Tue, 2011-09-20 13:04

#5

urdith

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Oddly enough, I was having a discussion with a friend about how EP views the slippery nature of identity and gender as a whole. Thanks for the links.

—

"The ruins of the unsustainable are the 21st century’s frontier."
— Bruce Sterling

Tue, 2011-09-20 19:04

#6

bakho

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Arenamontanus wrote:
Of course the slinkiness of the Morningstar diplomat may have more to do with choosing a morph for a particular manipulative purpose - both within and without the game. When you can look like whatever you want, your look become a means of communication.

Yeah, it's not a chainmail bikini in its uselessness, but it can still be discussed. The average gamer would expect the diplomat's bosom as a negotiation asset - why not break the stereotype when we're at it? The game breaks so many others.

urdith wrote:
Oddly enough, I was having a discussion with a friend about how EP views the slippery nature of identity and gender as a whole. Thanks for the links.

Awesome! EP starting discussions! Its slipperiness depends on the perspective - from a binary gender perspective and identity=body one, it indeed is slippery. But I get what you mean.

—

The only principle t

Tue, 2011-09-20 19:28

#7

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Arenamontanus wrote:
Of course the slinkiness of the Morningstar diplomat may have more to do with choosing a morph for a particular manipulative purpose - both within and without the game. When you can look like whatever you want, your look become a means of communication.

That and some people like slinky dresses. They look fantastic when worn well. I actually take issue with that particular part of the post,

Quote:
In the future, apparently, all the women are still half naked supermodels and so forth, and the archetype of the Venusian Diplomat I’d like to play is wearing a cocktail dress rather than the space age business suit I imagined.

Yup. In a future where being beautiful is so common that people purposefully make themselves ugly to set themselves apart, the wealthy upper class look like starlets. That doesn't mean that having a woman dressed in a slinky party dress (Which that clearly is) is the game tailoring itself to 'a hegemonic white cis male perspective'. It just means that beautiful people will continue wearing beautiful dresses that make themselves look more beautiful. Which they will.

—

-

Tue, 2011-09-20 19:42

#8

bakho

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I think you're reading the post in a different way than it was intended. It didn't critique the future EP extrapolates, where Venusian diplomats use physical attractiveness as yet another tool at their disposal, but the power artwork in RPG books has over gamers' views and standpoints on an implicit level. She doesn't say that Venusian diplomats wouldn't use sex appeal in that way in the setting, just that the artists could've represented a different kind of a Venusian diplomat, not a typical sexualized 'woman in an RPG book' representation. That's how I got it at least. It's not that diplomats wouldn't be attractive, it's just that artists should consider their artwork has grander implications than just setting-wise.

—

The only principle t

Tue, 2011-09-20 20:19

#9

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

bakho wrote:
I think you're reading the post in a different way than it was intended. It didn't critique the future EP extrapolates, where Venusian diplomats use physical attractiveness as yet another tool at their disposal, but the power artwork in RPG books has over gamers' views and standpoints on an implicit level. She doesn't say that Venusian diplomats wouldn't use sex appeal in that way in the setting, just that the artists could've represented a different kind of a Venusian diplomat, not a typical sexualized 'woman in an RPG book' representation. That's how I got it at least. It's not that diplomats wouldn't be attractive, it's just that artists should consider their artwork has grander implications than just setting-wise.

I understood the point, I just don't agree with it. Sure, the artist could have represented the diplomat differently. But why should they? The artwork represents a perfectly viable option, it is just not the option the writer would prefer. And I believe that critiquing EP because of that choice is just as unwarranted as someone from the other side critiquing the game for including gay couples. And the writer does use it as a critique of the game. The previous sentence lays out exactly how the writer thinks the inclusion of the diplomat artwork reflects on the game as a whole. It is looking to closely for issues that simply do not exist, at least not here. I agree with almost all the rest of the article. I did the first time I read it, and I still do. But that part always rubbed me the wrong way.

—

-

Tue, 2011-09-20 20:52

#10

bakho

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Well, it's a classical feminist argument, I dare say. The oversexualized presentation of women. You can say that it's looking for a needle in a haystack, but that is also really dependent on perspective. ;) In a transgenderist (postgenderist?) world, I can see how oversexualization by choice of the diplomat might be seen as bad form even. "You're trying to influence me on a really primitive level, Your Excellence. Do you think I'm some pheromone-addled 20th century hick with no control of my sexual drive? A faux pas, indeed. Now, lets get to that IP article no. 47 we've been having problems with..." I can see somebody saying that to the said diplomat, when she shows up in her cocktail dress at a PC-Morningstar negotiation table. But as I said, this is not an in-setting issue of feasibility. It's an issue of the representation of women in our, 21st century media. RPGs included.

—

The only principle t

Tue, 2011-09-20 21:18

#11

Erenthia

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I agree with both of you. Were I going to a negotiation of any importance, I'd rent a neuter morph with resistance to augmented pheromones (or hell maybe even a synthmorph if I felt I could afford it - socially speaking) but that's a defensive tactic. I feel that the article, while well written and articulate, doesn't quite get the true depth of EP. I don't imagine most people who were born men in the EP universe who go on to sleeve into female morphs actually consider themselves a man in a woman's body. My take on the setting is that there is a sharp divide between ego and morph. I don't see people as considering themselves as men and woman anymore, just ego's in morphs. One could make the argument, that the average gamer doesn't see that, but that's a different argument (one which I also happen to disagree with). When you think about your morph the same way we think about our cars, objectification looses meaning. Of *course* your morph is an object, but that's just your morph, not *you*. Then again, the art doesn't seem particularly balanced in that regard, and having read one of the comments left by the devs, it really does seem that the artists were the problem in this case, but that doesn't mean that the artwork as it was presented wasn't a valid depiction of the setting, just not a complete one. But it's true, this isn't just about in-setting feasibility. Still, I'd say that to remove all traces of oversexualization would not be the right direction to go. Remove the double standard, where female morphs are oversexualized exclusively and for the benefit of male morphs and replace it with equal oversexualization for all. And maybe it would help if the devs emphasized the lack of sexual stigma in the game. It's mentioned, but easily overlooked.

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Tue, 2011-09-20 21:26

#12

bakho

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I didn't get that from the setting. The way you're putting it, it's very *post*genderist. Yes, people are transhumans in the sense that they've gotten used to switching bodies (and the sex of the said bodies), but I think it still didn't go as far as removing the impact of morph on ego, for most transhumans. I think they would still identify the body with their ego, to some extent. Maybe not as adversely as we do, stuck in our permanent morphs, but I think it's one of the marks of posthumanity to completely divide the ego from the morph, in all aspects of self identification. Our psyche uses much less than physical reality to create identities (social categories, heck, people divided randomly in experiment situations form a group identity), so it would be a real effort of psychosurgery or some other feat of Singularity technology to circumvent it. Removing the double standard would be a way to go, I definitely agree.

—

The only principle t

Tue, 2011-09-20 23:14

#13

Erenthia

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Well I'm still very new to the setting, but I'll keep reading with an eye towards what you've said. I'm biased in favor of a post-gender view in real life, so it's entirely likely that I've over emphasized that aspect of the setting. I have to think, though, that there would be strains of post-genderist thought and that the line of thinking would be far more common than it is today. Perhaps it will be the new feminism. Who knows?

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Sat, 2011-09-24 00:06

#14

Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I remain puzzled that noone has yet inolved the plainly male and plainly sexualized by both artist's interpretation and role/context 'Socialite Escort' on p. 166. Additionally, 'gender' may be less relevant than sexual activeness. Which is more alien? Someone who doesn't subscribe to any attribution of gender? Or someone who has gone beyond any desire for intimate physical contact? Given the nature of individual habitats, faction segments and clades, there are probably groups in the EP universe which eschew both sex and sexuality, and others which associate specific gender roles (but may not associate them to the ego, simply the form! To carry the 'car you choose to drive metaphor' further, 'Why are you trying to haul cargo in a pace-car?'), others for whom sexuality is a significant and constant social aspect, etc. Art is used, almost invariably, as a selling mechanism. The inclusion of full-color, full-page graphics long ago ceased to be solely for illustrative purposes. Perhaps the designers of EP would have liked them to be that way, but the artists of our culture are trained in the adage that 'sex sells', and marketers will want the book to fall open to a page with something that triggers the salivate-and-buy reflex in the casual bookstore browser. This is sometimes taken to the extent of deliberately putting such 'buy me!' art on specific folio pages to MAKE the published book more likely to fall open to them, etc. I would not blame the folks at EP for failing to scrub all elements of modern Western culture out of their game. If they did, their audience would have an even more difficult time identifying with the characters in the setting (and if that has never been an issue for your gamer group, lucky you! I've had people blink at summaries of EP and all but run screaming). I'd focus on what they did manage to accomplish, myself.

Sat, 2011-09-24 05:52

#15

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Plenty of the characters depicted in the book are non-gendered, like the Barsoomian journalist, the hacker and the extropian smuggler. Of course, it might be that I cannot 'read' their morphs to notice that the swarmanoid is actually a very feminine swarmanoid, just as I can't easily tell if it is a male or female octopoid. I usually tell my players that Kinesics is an important skill, since people switch morphs and may look very unfamiliar. Characters with low Kinesics will not just lack gaydar, but likely have a hard time figuring out genders ('genderdar'?) and other aspects of a person in a nonhuman morph. Some people might enjoy having 'low key' gender that can only be discerned from behavior or when deliberately adding symbolic accoutrements to their morph, while others feel a need to have their morph very clearly represent some gender. Incidentally, this might be one reason so many people want biomorphs: the Fall led to a large number of fairly conservative people who would otherwise not have made the step into full posthumanity ending up as infugees, and now they try to reassert as many aspects of their identity as they can. The more bioliberal people are instead diffusing into entirely new modes of constructing their (gender)identities. As for illustrations, I prefer diversity. Slinky diplomats, sure. But also hunky programmers, asexual businessbeings, transvestite mining equipment, non-mammalian sexuality and plain-looking software code.

—

Sat, 2011-09-24 09:36

#16

urdith

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Arenamontanus wrote:
As for illustrations, I prefer diversity. Slinky diplomats, sure. But also hunky programmers, asexual businessbeings, transvestite mining equipment, non-mammalian sexuality and plain-looking software code.

Now, to be fair, to an infomorph the plain code may be equivalent of Taylor Lautner's abs in terms of attractiveness. But that is one of the joys of the game; it allows us to take our current preconceptions regarding identity, gender, sentience and humanity and toss them into a blender. One no longer needs to feel alien in one's body (if you have the money to switch).

—

"The ruins of the unsustainable are the 21st century’s frontier."
— Bruce Sterling

Sat, 2011-09-24 13:36

#17

bakho

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Erenthia wrote:
Well I'm still very new to the setting, but I'll keep reading with an eye towards what you've said. I'm biased in favor of a post-gender view in real life, so it's entirely likely that I've over emphasized that aspect of the setting. I have to think, though, that there would be strains of post-genderist thought and that the line of thinking would be far more common than it is today. Perhaps it will be the new feminism. Who knows?

I like it. Postgenderists would be the new radicals of deconstruction. We should work out some in setting prejudice toward them from the mainstream population, like the mainstream has prejudice toward feminists nowadays. Anyways, I'd like to hear your perspective when you read more into the setting!

Re-Laborat wrote:
Additionally, 'gender' may be less relevant than sexual activeness. Which is more alien? Someone who doesn't subscribe to any attribution of gender? Or someone who has gone beyond any desire for intimate physical contact?

I think that's a whole other can of worms. Sexual behavior and gender identification are pretty distinct categories. Being asexual doesn't have to be tied into the matter of gender. And also, somebody could be completely asexual (in-setting) and still have a polar sex, not a neuter. Not interested in sex (as in activity) doesn't mean one doesn't have a sex.

Re-Laborat wrote:
Given the nature of individual habitats, faction segments and clades, there are probably groups in the EP universe which eschew both sex and sexuality, and others which associate specific gender roles (but may not associate them to the ego, simply the form! To carry the 'car you choose to drive metaphor' further, 'Why are you trying to haul cargo in a pace-car?'), others for whom sexuality is a significant and constant social aspect, etc.

But yes, there could be whole groups of people who consider sexual interest or sexual behavior wonks their minds too much, and decide to cut it completely. Quite radical, but imagine how cool those 'Vuclans' would be in a business/scientific/military/whatever setting, completely focused on the goal and not carrying the baggage of constant sexual competition. Heck, it's a way into posthumanity. Definitely worth exploring, I love the idea.

Re-Laborat wrote:
Art is used, almost invariably, as a selling mechanism. The inclusion of full-color, full-page graphics long ago ceased to be solely for illustrative purposes. Perhaps the designers of EP would have liked them to be that way, but the artists of our culture are trained in the adage that 'sex sells', and marketers will want the book to fall open to a page with something that triggers the salivate-and-buy reflex in the casual bookstore browser. This is sometimes taken to the extent of deliberately putting such 'buy me!' art on specific folio pages to MAKE the published book more likely to fall open to them, etc. I would not blame the folks at EP for failing to scrub all elements of modern Western culture out of their game. If they did, their audience would have an even more difficult time identifying with the characters in the setting (and if that has never been an issue for your gamer group, lucky you! I've had people blink at summaries of EP and all but run screaming). I'd focus on what they did manage to accomplish, myself.

Good point, the immersion factor. But I still think it should be considered carefully. Everybody in our, Western society as you put it, has to chip in the deconstruction of bias and prejudice. Including RPG books. This is not saying 'burn them, BURN' to the EP devs; on the contrary, they seem to be much aware of the subject and kudos to them for that. But there's always room for improvement.

Arenamontanus wrote:
I usually tell my players that Kinesics is an important skill, since people switch morphs and may look very unfamiliar. Characters with low Kinesics will not just lack gaydar, but likely have a hard time figuring out genders ('genderdar'?) and other aspects of a person in a nonhuman morph. Some people might enjoy having 'low key' gender that can only be discerned from behavior or when deliberately adding symbolic accoutrements to their morph, while others feel a need to have their morph very clearly represent some gender.

*like* Genderdar - I know some people discuss to no end not being able to identify the gender of a random person on the street/mall/school/whatever. It's one of the basic categories you rank people in, so when there's confusion about it, it's noticed. In EP, this is even more prevalent, since everybody could be potentially transsexual (to put it like that).

—

The only principle t

Sat, 2011-09-24 15:16

#18

Erenthia

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I'd like to think (or maybe hope?) that post-genderist thought is closer to us than the future of EP, but perhaps that's wishful thinking. Some other interesting things to bring up: What relationships might transhumans have with uplifts? How would uplifts view bestiality porn? I'm being completely serious here. If you radically embrace the idea that we are all just ego's inside of morphs then you have to allow for the possibility. My personal thought is that there would be an equal number of transhumans as uplifts against the pairings ("don't date outside your species!") and that it would be one of the few remaining stigmas left for sexual behavior. Further I suspect that virtually all uplifts would see bestiality (at least when made with typical "dumb" animals rather than uplifts) to be somewhere between pedophilia and statutory rape since the transhumans involved have all the power intellectually, economically, and socially/legally. So what kind of porn do transhuman/uplift couples watch together? I imagine it would come with a brief clip at the beginning of the uplifts involved stating their consent to take part (the way some BDSM movies do these days). In fact I think porn involving transhuman/uplift pairings would probably give themselves a name to distinguish themselves from bestiality. Transpecies porn maybe? Another topic I may be a little out of date about is the gay gene. As I understand it, homosexuality and bi-sexuality are thought to have some genetic basis. It seems to me that if you're renting out morphs to people who are egocasting, or growing them for sale to parties as yet unknown then you don't know what their gender or sexual preference will be ahead of time, so it would make sense to give them bi-sexuality genes. On the other hand genetic modification after the fact might not be difficult at all (You can grow extra limbs in one of those not-bacta tanks after all). Which while troubling sociologically, *is* a great horror element. There essentially *would* be a "cure" for homosexuality. Obviously from an ethical standpoint forcing someone to alter their sexual preference to make you more comfortable is an extreme (if metaphorical) form of rape. Sexual preference goes from "it's not a choice!" to "it's my prerogative!" I can totally imagine bioconservative habs which hypocritically pretend to ban all forms of genetic engineering (letting children die from genetic diseases or grow up with down syndrome, etc) except routinely round up homosexuals and bisexuals to "cure" them. If done well by the GM it could build a great deal of empathy for homosexuals and bisexuals in the players who see the horror of what's being done to them, but I digress. So if we assume biomorphs are made bisexual by default, and that it takes time and money to change them then it would seem that most biomorphs will probably stay bisexual. (After all, it's not *stopping* you from having sex with anyone). So where do new transhumans come from? If the answer is that biomorphs can and do get pregnant (I don't know this for sure but I can't see anything else being presented by the books) then most newly born children will be bisexual from the start and the human race will quickly default to bisexuality. How long has resleeving been around again?

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Sun, 2011-09-25 00:41

#19

rfmcdonald rfmcdonald's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

"I agree that EP is one of the few games where trans-people are simply there, without being jokes or 'special'. A bit like the illustration in Sunward with the gay couple, which I remembered had a comment by one of the creators remarking on the rarity of such couples as rpg illustrations." There's an illustration of a gay couple in Sunward? Where?

Sun, 2011-09-25 02:15

#20

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I thought the same thing. Guessing, I would say either page 123 or the opening art to the PC chapter. However both of these didn't really make my gaydar go woo woo, so maybe not.

—

-

Sun, 2011-09-25 05:14

#21

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

CodeBreaker wrote:
I thought the same thing. Guessing, I would say either page 123 or the opening art to the PC chapter. However both of these didn't really make my gaydar go woo woo, so maybe not.

It was the p. 123 image. The PC gerontocrats are just longingly staring into each other's finances :-) (the original comment about the picture was at http://www.eclipsephase.com/more-sunward-art-previews )

—

Sun, 2011-09-25 05:57

#22

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Erenthia wrote:
What relationships might transhumans have with uplifts? How would uplifts view bestiality porn?

I guess one could look at the furry subculture here. Besides the vast majority who think everybody else is obsessed with the sex aspect of furries to the exclusion of the much bigger social angle (a bit like how conservatives are obsessed with gays in the bedroom rather than as fellow people), among the furries who like to do porn there are big divisions. It seems to me as an outsider that there is a split between various levels of acceptable kink, running from fairly vanilla to feral anything-goes porn. Of course, since it is all 100% fictional at present the split is mostly about what kind of images to get off on. But once you can make furries or become them these issues become much tougher. I think the consent part is the obvious dividing line between ethical and unethical relations, but that can get very tricky. After all, normal animals presumably consent to sex with each other, and semi-uplifted smart animals would presumably be even better at giving consent. Cue complex debate about power, the compatibility of different sociosexual systems in different species, and even designer sexualities. On another level a lot of the condemnation is likely due to yuck factors related to the idea that one is not supposed to desire outside one's kind - but that is of course something we have been challenging with race and gender already, so why not species? In fact, one of the points of trans-species attraction might be the difference: if everybody saw themselves as just egos in morphs, then it wouldn't be thrilling. People want the animal aspect because it *is* different. So one element of transpecies porn might be to play up the atavistic or species-typical traits, just as transvestites often go hyper on the gender they dress as. (Then again, I am defending the right of people to have sex with frozen chicken on BBC4 this Tuesday ("The Philosopher's Arms"), and I have written an essay on sex with dead squids... maybe I am a bit too broad-minded :-) )

Quote:
Another topic I may be a little out of date about is the gay gene. As I understand it, homosexuality and bi-sexuality are thought to have some genetic basis. It seems to me that if you're renting out morphs to people who are egocasting, or growing them for sale to parties as yet unknown then you don't know what their gender or sexual preference will be ahead of time, so it would make sense to give them bi-sexuality genes.

I think the current rough consensus view in science is that there is a genetic basis for homosexuality, but it is definitely not 100% - even in monozygotic twins sharing all genes, there is just 50% chance the twin of a homosexual twin will also be homosexual. It is not that strange: the midbrain systems that tell us what stimuli look sexy have to be rather complicated neural networks (just imagine making a feature-detector that can detect breasts, for example). The genes likely just promote one rough structure over another, and most of the construction is due to experience. EP has always been a bit shaky on exactly how much of a brain the ego is. Things like addictions being linked to morphs and mentions of Fury emotional stability suggest that there are deep parts that are not changed as an ego is sleeved. Yet the very individual neural networks of aesthetics, emotional importance and memory that would feed into the attraction system are clearly part of the ego, and I would even go so far as to say that those midbrain networks should be part of the ego - they are our personality! So finding yourself bi, gay or straight because of your morph sounds entirely compatible with EP as written, yet I have a hard time to swallow the neuroscience. Still, maybe it is better not to quibble too much. In fact, I used something slightly similar in my writeup of "Conquest of Bread" habitat, where there is a gay community trying to reinforce itself using special morphs.

Quote:
There essentially *would* be a "cure" for homosexuality. Obviously from an ethical standpoint forcing someone to alter their sexual preference to make you more comfortable is an extreme (if metaphorical) form of rape.

(Incidentally, this might further explain the problems of the poor (mentally male) Mormon missionary who got sleeved into a female pleasure pod by a slimy male PC in a past game. No, he wasn't bi *before* he was sleeved...) In any case, genes are not everything. With psychosurgery you can "fix" preferences. And I would imagines some petals doing it too: "Oh Zygopetalum is a real trip. It oscillates your mental gender faster and faster in tune with the music..."

Quote:
Sexual preference goes from "it's not a choice!" to "it's my prerogative!"

Hmm, preferences as views on what should be unchangeable rather than what their value is... Some people think that uplifts (and transhumans) should sleeve "as they really are", while others think it is my species, my choice. "Scatter-ring is not one of us. Not only did he sell out to the extropians, the pervert sleeved in a multilegged synthmorph monstrosity!"

Quote:
So where do new transhumans come from? If the answer is that biomorphs can and do get pregnant (I don't know this for sure but I can't see anything else being presented by the books) then most newly born children will be bisexual from the start and the human race will quickly default to bisexuality. How long has resleeving been around again?

On a mass-scale I suspect not since the Fall. But it was no doubt increasingly common in the two decades before. That suggests that most young people have grown up in a fairly post-gendered world and ought to be bisexual - unless they modified themselves to get some other preference model.

—

Mon, 2011-09-26 17:13

#23

Erenthia

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I didn't mean to suggest that sexual preference was 100% genetic, although going back and reading what I wrote, it *is* what I said. Thank you for the correction. My theory, at least as it applies to EP, is that the genetic component of sexual preference is the chemical/hormonal reactions of the morph to sexual stimulation (though you seem to know more about neuroscience than I do). It is probably "fixable" (changeable) through psychosurgery, as you said, which is cheaper and easier than genetic modification, so the spread of bisexuality is probably slower than I would have anticipated. On the flipside, it makes the "curing" of homosexuals/bisexuals that much horrifying. (Which while being extra shitty for those who are forced to get the "cure" is that much more compelling when used to demonstrate the wrongness of the act itself.) Honestly I probably wouldn't bring up transpecies relationships in any game I ran. I simply don't want to push people too far. (Actually I might have a character's NPC love interest forcibly resleeved into an uplift for one session, but that's as far as I would push) To be frank, I'm a little put off by the idea myself, but I cannot allow myself to be inconsistent when I can help it. So if biomorphs fuck, what exactly comes from that union? And if it's not on a mass scale anymore, than where are most babies being born or are you saying birth-rates are low? I can definitely see the birth-rate being down. Resleeving/Backups probably went a long way to bringing that about, and the fall just made it even less desirable to raise a family (possibly more so for some though). My guess on the children of morphs would be a random assortment of traits taken from both parents with the random chance for a new trait. Hmm...the child of a Remade and a Fury (if they even have a uterus, I don't know) sounds like an interesting story...

—

The end really is coming. What comes after that is anyone's guess.

Tue, 2011-09-27 04:24

#24

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Erenthia wrote:
On the flipside, it makes the "curing" of homosexuals/bisexuals that much horrifying. (Which while being extra shitty for those who are forced to get the "cure" is that much more compelling when used to demonstrate the wrongness of the act itself.)

I wonder how much of an issue that has been in the EP world. Psychosurgery is a fairly recent development, while the overall trend over the past 50 years has been much greater tolerance of non-hetero lifestyles. While the tribulations of the EP timeline might have led to backsliding, it is not too implausible that the trend has just continued so that at the time psychosurgery arrives rather few groups find a need to "cure" homosexuals (or "cure" heterosexuals).

Quote:
So if biomorphs fuck, what exactly comes from that union? And if it's not on a mass scale anymore, than where are most babies being born or are you saying birth-rates are low? I can definitely see the birth-rate being down. Resleeving/Backups probably went a long way to bringing that about, and the fall just made it even less desirable to raise a family (possibly more so for some though). My guess on the children of morphs would be a random assortment of traits taken from both parents with the random chance for a new trait. Hmm...the child of a Remade and a Fury (if they even have a uterus, I don't know) sounds like an interesting story...

There have been several threads about this, with suggestions all over the place. http://www.eclipsephase.com/mommy-daddy-where-do-babies-come-real-ep-que... http://www.eclipsephase.com/reproduction-do-hypercorps-own-copyright-you... http://www.eclipsephase.com/morphs-and-having-children http://www.eclipsephase.com/family-matter http://www.eclipsephase.com/ego-birthing My own take on it is that biomorphs are in principle fertile, but 1) come with built in contraception that must be turned off, 2) their genetic enhancements are not necessarily compatible which reduces interfertility and 3) since most enhancements are corporate property they are not inheritable in a natural conception. The hypercorps would prefer if everybody reproduced by going to a baby designer who compiled a child genome, with parents paying for the various upgrades and likely opting for a comfy exowomb. Anarchists have cracked various genetic DRMs, but that also tends to introduce complications. Basically, people can have kids in a lot of very radical ways, but the "oops, forgot the rubber" way has become much rarer. I think sex and reproduction has by now totally become separate functions. And since people now see the costs of reproduction directly they might (especially under economic pressure) opt to have far fewer kids. (It is up to us forkers to create enough egos to fill the economy! :-) )

—

Fri, 2011-10-14 19:46

#25

jackgraham jackgraham's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

bakho wrote:
I think you're reading the post in a different way than it was intended. It didn't critique the future EP extrapolates, where Venusian diplomats use physical attractiveness as yet another tool at their disposal, but the power artwork in RPG books has over gamers' views and standpoints on an implicit level. She doesn't say that Venusian diplomats wouldn't use sex appeal in that way in the setting, just that the artists could've represented a different kind of a Venusian diplomat, not a typical sexualized 'woman in an RPG book' representation. That's how I got it at least. It's not that diplomats wouldn't be attractive, it's just that artists should consider their artwork has grander implications than just setting-wise.

I always just assumed she was at a gala or a gallery opening or somesuch, & had left the suits at home in favor of evening wear. I had not considered the political context. And if we're gonna talk fan servicing, check out the pleasure pod escort sample character. He is o b j e c t i f i e d. :)

—

J A C K G R A H A M :: Hooray for Earth! http://eclipsephase.com :: twitter @jackgraham @faketsr :: Google+Jack Graham

Fri, 2011-10-14 22:00

#26

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

In a universe where your body can be purchased, how can you not be objectified?

—

[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]

Fri, 2011-10-14 22:08

#27

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Transgenderism and EP

I think we simple humans obsess about sex too much. When ability to shape our bodies will be available, imagine the possibilities of abandoning your gender and sexual drive altogether.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Sat, 2011-10-15 08:24

#28

Xagroth

Re: Transgenderism and EP

Extrasolar Angel wrote:
I think we simple humans obsess about sex too much. When ability to shape our bodies will be available, imagine the possibilities of abandoning your gender and sexual drive altogether.

Why? Just become an infomorph... and try things you can barely imagine. Personally, I think the body is always a means of communication, and in EP people will look a little less at the looks of the morph in the higher social levels (in the street, where having a biomorph is a luxury, it would most likely remain the same as of today), than the "accesories" and the state the morph is in. For example, is the morph still "fresh" from the vats? Is it in good shape? Also, the looks of the morph would give a high clue about what the ego sleeved in wants: is that morph designed to please me? Or to displease? Or it goes in the general lines of what I would expect of that diplomat? In a setting where looks can transmit whatever we want them to, it becomes exclusively a battle between "realities", with both parties trying to drag the other to their one, where they have the advantage. Using a synthmorph would be a too great mistake: it transmits fear and lack of self-control against what the opponent would throw at us, and put us at a passive-defensive position. As for "furry" morphs, I'd say that it depends on the race. Feline-based morphs & egos, I think, would tend to be more oriented to pleasure than others like, for example, reptile-based ones. And there could be merely cosmetic changes to base morphs (for example, a splicer with fur, cat eyes and ears, and a tail), in a more mode-based line.