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Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question

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UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
So I just had my group run up and generate some fresh EP characters, starting a new campaign. And one of them is a Reaper, with 6 articulated weapon mounts and guns (seekers, actually, one way or another) all built in. And I've never really been clear on this point, but its probably gonna come up, but how many attacks an action does he get, against how many people, with what modifiers, and using what skill? I have a player who is an AGI, sleeved into a Takko with Ambidexterous x7 and 6 Hand Lasers, and I'm pretty sure that means she can laser 6 people without any modifiers, or at least one person 6 times.
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Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
As I understood the rules, you cannot be ambidexterous x7, since the limit is 50 points in advantages and 50 on disadvantages (so the AGI could reach a x5 at max... leaving, by the way, two arms to move. After all, why mount the thrusters of a takko in the frame when you can do it in the already articulated tentacles? Not to mention the rotatory advantage XD). Having more weapons does not give you any extra action, you can only *support* your main attack (attacking more people, increasing the damage to a single target, etc...). In the combat section of the core book there are some data about it, but essentially the reaper can concentrate fire on the same enemy, fire against several if they are close enough (GM's call), alternate the fire, etc... Oh, and look again into the book. The Reaper has four limbs, and four weapon mounts. Anyway, it's not a morph people want in the neighborhood, because it only makes one thing, meaning the player will have to leave that infantry-level Death Start behind more often than not.
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
Xagroth wrote:
As I understood the rules, you cannot be ambidexterous x7, since the limit is 50 points in advantages and 50 on disadvantages (so the AGI could reach a x5 at max... leaving, by the way, two arms to move. After all, why mount the thrusters of a takko in the frame when you can do it in the already articulated tentacles? Not to mention the rotatory advantage XD).
Yeah, I'm ignoring that. I don't see why you can't spend you limited resource points on what you like, especially since there's something in the Core Book about an Octomorph having Ambidextrous enough times to use all limbs. Also the 50 limit can leave trailing numbers or odd combinations with traits that cost lie 5 or 15. Now, If someone comes along an explains some kind of formula for how my way is totally imbalanced, I may change my mind, but for now its my house rule. And actually, since she only has the six hand lasers, she always still has a couple tentacles free, its just she made a character that has no bad limbs. It's mildly believable.
Xagroth wrote:
Having more weapons does not give you any extra action, you can only *support* your main attack (attacking more people, increasing the damage to a single target, etc...). In the combat section of the core book there are some data about it, but essentially the reaper can concentrate fire on the same enemy, fire against several if they are close enough (GM's call), alternate the fire, etc... Oh, and look again into the book. The Reaper has four limbs, and four weapon mounts. Anyway, it's not a morph people want in the neighborhood, because it only makes one thing, meaning the player will have to leave that infantry-level Death Start behind more often than not.
Actually, this one has [i]six[/i] weapon mounts, because he bought to more. All articulated, and still with four limbs. And yes, I have told him "You know that before you enter any civilized areas they are going to, at the very least, confiscate all your ammunition, right?", to which I get "I know", in the way that he understand the words I have said, but not necessarily the implications. I know its probably a problem character, but I really don't want to say "Your Reaper Sheriff is cool and all, but it doesn't really fit my game. Please go away and come back with a sane character", especially given how much time and effort goes into EP characters. Anyway, I know that there are mentions of the multiple attacks in the book, its just I don't understand all the disparate parts very well, and I was hoping someone here with more experience (possibly more specific than mine) could outline the conditions exactly, or at least point me at all the parts I need to read. I mean, I know there's a penalty for multiple targets (or was it multiple attacks?), but that's negated by Ambidexterous. Since they're articulated weapon mounts, is he even still using his normal skill, or is it Gunnery? I don't know! Hence why I'm here.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
LostProxy LostProxy's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
It's on page 206 under extra ranged weapons. Essentially every attack is dealt with separately (6 arms = 6 rolls) and as long as they have the ambidextrous quality enough times there won't be a negative modifier unless those attacks are at a separate target. All at the same target = Separate rolls for each attack, negative mods cancelled by enough ambidexterity. Attacks at different targets = -20 per each and is not modified by ambidexterity. Gunnery is very specific about how it's used. On vehicle weapons and weapon emplacements.
BlackJaw BlackJaw's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
LostProxy has it right. I run an uplifted Octopus in game, and he's sometimes becomes an impressive gun turret, although his implanted lasers don't do as much as I had hoped due to their lack of armor penetration. I do find his abilities to use melee attacks interesting. In that case, the extra weapons add bonus dice of damage to the single attack instead of make separate attacks. The combined damage total only has to be reduced by armor once instead of each attack punching its own way through the armor like with ranged attacks. There is a limit to the number of times you can take Ambidextrous at character creation due to the max number of CP points you can spend on positive traits at character creation, but you can spend Rez to buy more versions of it once gameplay gets going.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
AFAIK, the chargen rules are there to help you make a functional character. You can't Skip skills, or spend everything on Aptitudes, or buy a hundred plasma cannons… or get too many Qualities. It's just a guide system, as is the 1000 CP number (again, AFAIK). If you don't like it, it's fine to change it for your game.
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
Thanks guys, that was the specifics I was looking for. IIRC the multiple targets penalty is also cumulative, meaning that you're looking at some pretty ludicrous penalties by the time you roll around to that 4th or 5th attack. Anybody know of a ruling on how ambidexterity/off-hand penalties interact with articulated weapon mounts, or am I winging it? As for my choice on allowing more than 50 CP on Traits, its pretty simple. There's no other restrictions on how much of what you can buy with your free 300 CP (After the 400 on Active Skills and 300 on Knowledge Skills), so why restrict Traits, if that's what you want to do? I did flat out tell them if we got to the end and they couldn't come up with a good explination for their traits, I'd make them change it.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/
LostProxy LostProxy's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
I don't think there is anything specific in the books about it but personally I would say you would need ambidextrous to use them without penalty. Nothing about them says they're immune from it.
Camwyn Camwyn's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
Two comments: first, by raising the cap on +traits you also imply raising it on -traits...not sure I'd want to open that can of worms. second, I'd rule that a reaper's turrets are limbs and thus require ambidexterity to use multiples, but there is no 'handedness' per se - no penalty for using any ONE of them. As for house rules, my group is hammering this same issue out. So far we require at least one limb for support (2 for standing, one for hanging or bracing in microgravity) and I did up a spreadsheet of the max possible rolls (I'm on my cell, I'll post it later) for the most extreme example. We also house ruled multiple targets for ranged get the same penalties as melee, so while the rolls are reasonable for up to 4 targets they drop pretty quickly beyond that. Zero ammo is a flat bonus and only for the same target. (ok, that's by-the-book) and adding a shock enhancement to your melee secondaries doesn't add any damage. Reapers CAN have their custom Muse run ONE gun, but they'd need ghostrider modules and AIs or infomorphs for the others (the one reaper is considering just that - using forks) These were mostly us reading the book in the strictest way to contain the insanity. Side notes: reasons for house rules include your six-gun octomorph getting 12 shots via SA! Also, the players asked about it not because they were trying to crack out their characters, but because they were concerned about what I might throw at them!
fellowhoodlum fellowhoodlum's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
Or you could get a limited AI with Gunnery/relevant weapons skill and slave the additional arms to it. Multiple AIs for multiple arms work too in a "Set turrets to Auto Fire mode" kinda way
Xagroth Xagroth's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
UnitOmega wrote:
As for my choice on allowing more than 50 CP on Traits, its pretty simple. There's no other restrictions on how much of what you can buy with your free 300 CP (After the 400 on Active Skills and 300 on Knowledge Skills), so why restrict Traits, if that's what you want to do? I did flat out tell them if we got to the end and they couldn't come up with a good explination for their traits, I'd make them change it.
Short answer: advantages can quickly and easily unbalance a starting character. Imagine you buy all the psi-advantages on start, the aptitude top of 40, the "ignore the first 2 wounds", etc... And we better don't think about an AGI buying the "the limit is now 90" for all the skills they pay at half price at character creation, plus other advantages... Anyway, I don't see a great inbalance in allowing the octopus to buy the ambidexterity for all limbs... as long as the player does that, and that only. However, being as I am a nice GM, I would allow him to buy that advantage with credits, at the usual cost of "morph advantages costs X creds per point" (i think it was like 200 creds per point). Again, I'm not sure the reaper can get two mounted weapons added, since it has 4 articulated arms (more like tentacles XD) where the weapons are mounted. At the very least, those extra weapons/arms would not get the "it can show up anywhere in the morph" all its baseline equipment has (unless the player wants to make a new reaper design, of course XD).
UnitOmega UnitOmega's picture
Re: Mounted Weapons/Multiple Attacks question
Xagroth wrote:
Again, I'm not sure the reaper can get two mounted weapons added, since it has 4 articulated arms (more like tentacles XD) where the weapons are mounted. At the very least, those extra weapons/arms would not get the "it can show up anywhere in the morph" all its baseline equipment has (unless the player wants to make a new reaper design, of course XD).
Not that it matters to much, since both Players ended up changing their characters (One was pretty much forced, the other just did it for... some reason), but I don't think that's how Weapon Mounts work. A Reaper says it has limbs AND says it has articulated weapon mounts, and I don't recall it saying they were both.
H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/