Processing Ghostrider Module question

Thu, 2011-09-01 09:46

#2

Xagroth

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

I think that, using the mesh inserts OR the ecto, you can run an Ego/AI/muse (I would forbid to have both ectos and the mesh active, since they both do the same thing using the same mental instructions... meaning you would be "multiboxing", making the ectos irrelevant). And then, the ghostrider module allos for another AI/Ego/Muse.

Thu, 2011-09-01 11:21

#3

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

AFAIK, your mesh inserts can support 1 Infomorph/AGI/AI/Muse/Fork (collectively, 'informorphs'). Your Ghostrider can also support 1. Your ecto can also support 1. Any 'personal computer' can support 1 (meaning ecto, mesh inserts, vehicles). These are all totally independent of each other. It's unrelated, but you can also use multiple computers (ectos, mesh inserts) at once (p249, Core, 3rd). Ectos don't use mental instructions anyway, they use haptics. It's unrelated, because infomorphs control themselves. :)

Thu, 2011-09-01 13:19

#4

Quigs

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Yerameyahu wrote:
Your Ghostrider can also support 1.

It's that thought that's the problem. The gear listing states it must be linked to the mesh inserts, regardless of what limitations are placed upon the passenger. Now if the rider has no access to the mesh, of what use is being linked to the mesh inserts, other then using it's processing power? Can you find any evidence that the Ghostrider is a PC on it's own, and not just a means to allow the rider control over certain sleeve functions?

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Thu, 2011-09-01 14:35

#5

Ephiral

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Quigs wrote:
Now if the rider has no access to the mesh, of what use is being linked to the mesh inserts, other then using it's processing power? Can you find any evidence that the Ghostrider is a PC on it's own, and not just a means to allow the rider control over certain sleeve functions?

The existence of ghostrider modules is strong evidence in itself - they add absolutely no functionality other than another infomorph "slot" in your head. If they didn't do that much, they wouldn't exist - you'd just stick the other infomorph on your inserts, replacing your muse. As to the reason for connecting them to the mesh inserts: Your premise appears faulty. Ghostriders explicitly [i]do[/i] have mesh access, as detailed in the same line that mentions the connection.

Thu, 2011-09-01 15:00

#6

Quigs

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Ephiral wrote:
Quigs wrote:
Now if the rider has no access to the mesh, of what use is being linked to the mesh inserts, other then using it's processing power? Can you find any evidence that the Ghostrider is a PC on it's own, and not just a means to allow the rider control over certain sleeve functions?
The existence of ghostrider modules is strong evidence in itself - they add absolutely no functionality other than another infomorph "slot" in your head. If they didn't do that much, they wouldn't exist - you'd just stick the other infomorph on your inserts, replacing your muse..

Incorrect. The module "allows access to sensory information, thoughts, communications, and other implants."

Quote:
Ghostriders explicitly do have mesh access, as detailed in the same line that mentions the connection.

Also incorrect. The only thing they explicitly have is access to mesh inserts. Can =/= must, especially with the next sentence specifically talking about restricting all sorts of access.

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Thu, 2011-09-01 15:12

#7

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

I honestly am not sure I understand the question. The Ghostrider does this: "This implant allows the character to carry *another* infomorph inside their head. This infomorph could be *another* muse, an AI, a backed-up ego, or a fork." That's its purpose: +1 infomorph. It's linked to the mesh inserts *so* it can access the Mesh. I can't imagine a situation where you'd get an implant in your head for the purpose of going from infomorph capacity 1 to informorph capacity… 1. The mesh inserts already allow their rider the same access described.

Thu, 2011-09-01 15:47

#8

Quigs

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

What the module gives is functionality to a second ego riding in a morph. A muse working off the inserts alone wouldn't have access to implants and such. The Ghostrider allows it that access.

—

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my

Thu, 2011-09-01 16:04

#9

Ephiral

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Quigs wrote:
Incorrect. The module "allows access to sensory information, thoughts, communications, and other implants."

None of this is added functionality - your muse already gets all of it. What functionality does it [i]add[/i], if we accept your argument?

Quote:
Ghostriders explicitly do have mesh access, as detailed in the same line that mentions the connection.

Quigs wrote:
Also incorrect. The only thing they explicitly have is access to mesh inserts. Can =/= must, especially with the next sentence specifically talking about restricting all sorts of access.

If you accept the capability of the mesh connection, then I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding the question correctly. The most likely [I]other[/I] functions of the mesh-insert link, though, are to provide the sensory and other links you mentioned. The mesh inserts are already getting this data - why build a parallel system when you can just use the established one? EDIT: Quigs, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that your muse doesn't have sensorium/thought/implant data. Can you provide a reference?

Thu, 2011-09-01 15:50

#10

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Quigs, I don't think that's true. AFAIK, any informorph can ride in your stock mesh inserts, and can access whatever'd you'd like. The word 'access' is also slightly vague: it could either mean 'see/read/feel' or 'control'.

Thu, 2011-09-01 18:08

#11

Re-Laborat Re-Laborat's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Allow me to complicate this already contentious conversation: Two words. "Puppet sock." Can an AGI or an AI 'ride' in one, given that it hasn't got a 'body'?

Thu, 2011-09-01 22:25

#12

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

No. The Puppet Sock just allows control; the control *source* must either be a Ghostrider, or a direct comm link. The fact of this is why I mentioned the ambiguity of 'access' earlier. Because the Puppet Sock exists, I assume that 'access' means 'sensory/info access', but *not* control.

Fri, 2011-09-02 11:43

#13

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

A ghostrider module is a processor that contains an ego and runs it. It has to be linked to the mesh inserts because that's how it interacts with the outside world. That's also the only way that an ego can be downloaded into it (it has no independent transmission systems), barring access jacks. Even then, going through the mesh inserts ensures that there's a firewall and that the person who has it has control of who/what gets in and out of it. Hence, I'd say you can run two infomorphs, one in your mesh inserts and one in a ghostrider module. Also, here's a fun question: Can you put multiple ghostrider modules in a single morph? How much additional processing power, even? Can a person turn their morph into a walking server, allowing them to host dozens of infomorphs or run a VR?

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Fri, 2011-09-02 12:23

#14

Herbo

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Can a person turn their morph into a walking server, allowing them to host dozens of infomorphs or run a VR?

It would make for an interesting bit of story certainly. Though, I'm sure that sort of thing would void all sorts of warranties and coverage of Backup Insurance for all involved :-). But considering bodies are in short supply for infogees and escaped corporate indentures you could probably find a co-op morph somewhere in the solar system.

Fri, 2011-09-02 13:54

#15

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Also, here's a fun question: Can you put multiple ghostrider modules in a single morph? How much additional processing power, even? Can a person turn their morph into a walking server, allowing them to host dozens of infomorphs or run a VR?

I don't see why not. The Ghostrider module is essentially just an implanted, specialised ecto with a direct datajack link to your mesh inserts. I cannot think of any reason (barring space) why it would not be possible. And the Core rulebook leaves open the possibility distributed server software, although it doesn't go into detail, and it is only a passing mention. One of my old characters (and custom morphs) did something similar. They personally did very little fighting, instead they commanded a swarm of drones with a small legion of beta forks hosted on a distributed network of Ghostriders.

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Fri, 2011-09-02 14:04

#16

Quigs

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Axel the Chimeric wrote:
A ghostrider module is a processor that contains an ego and runs it.

[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png[/img]

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"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my

Fri, 2011-09-02 15:06

#17

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Infomorphs are digital-only forms—they lack a physical body. Infomorphs are sometimes carried by other characters instead of (or in addition to) a muse in a ghostrider module (p. 307). Full rules for infomorphs can be found on p. 265. Instead of relying on underdeveloped muses for aid and companionship, characters may prefer to have a full-fledged digital intelligence at their side, whether that be an AGI, a backed-up biological ego, or fork of the character’s own personality. Alternatively, a character with a ghostrider module (p. 307) could have both, carrying a muse in their mesh inserts and an infomorph in the ghostrider module. Only one ego or AI may “inhabit” a cyberbrain at a time; to accommodate extras, mesh inserts mesh inserts (p. 300) or a ghostrider module (p. 307) must be used. That last one in particular. There have also been discussions, on these forums and others, with people like Jsnead (who wrote the gear chapter) that corroborates ghostriders being capable of running an ego. And honestly, why would they not? You can run an ego on something the same size as a credit card. A credit card sized piece of technology that costs the exact same as a ghostrider module. The only difference is that one is implanted, the other is not. What is the issue with ghostrider modules being capable of running an ego?

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Fri, 2011-09-02 15:20

#18

BlackJaw

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

It can be inferred that the ghost rider module is a computer system that essentially provides processing abilities to run an extra ego because as stated on page 264: "Due to their size and complexity, only one AI (or infomorph) may be run on a personal computer at a time (see Computer Capabilities, p. 247), and they may not run on peripheral devices." and the ghost rider description (copied intact below from page 307) explicitly states that it allows "another infomorph." Infomorphs run on computer systems, and the "another" part means it's in addition what you could already operate without it (such as in an ecto or mesh inserts.) In fact it explicitly states that "another muse" is a valid use of the ghost rider module. That means it's another computer system that is potent enough to run AIs (such as a Muse) and egos, and not a "peripheral device" that are explicitly stated to not be able to operate AIs. Further more, the side bar on page 264 "INFOMORPHS AS MUSES" states that a person with both mesh inserts and a ghost rider module could have an ego infomorph and their muse running at the same time, one in each. Considering the rule (pg 264) that only one AI may be in a system at a time, I think it's abundantly clear that Ghost rider modules add an extra bit of computer power to run more AIs and infomorphs. That they are computers is necessitated by their ability to run AIs, which can not be downloaded into a pure meat brain (pg 264 "they may not be downloaded into biomorph brains.") Here's the full text of the Ghost Rider Module, to help clarify:

Quote:
Ghostrider Module: This implant allows the character to carry another infomorph inside their head. This infomorph could be another muse, an AI, a backed-up ego, or a fork. The module is linked to the character’s mesh inserts, so the ghost-rider can access the mesh. The character may limit the ghostrider’s access, or may allow them direct access to their sensory information, thoughts, communications, and other implants.

The section on accessing Mesh Inserts appears to me to be a way of saying that the occupying infomorph of the ghost rider module may access the mesh/internet... which means it could take actions like jamming bots or hacking. Interestingly, an ego in the ghost rider module does not appear to have a way to run it's own Muse or other AI, although it would have access to any muse or ai running in the mesh inserts of the host morph.

Sat, 2011-09-03 00:45

#19

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Edit: Black actually cited and pretty nicely stated it for me. Good job.

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Sat, 2011-09-03 19:39

#20

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

:) Like I did a page ago. I honestly don't understand the issue. It's like asking if a chair is for sitting in, or if it merely allows people to sit next to it on the floor.

Sun, 2011-09-04 09:34

#21

jackgraham jackgraham's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Quigs wrote:
Friend/player suggests that no such limiting intention exists, that the processing power is handled through the module itself, and not by the inserts. Now, we're both aware that if he picks up an ecto, he can handle an additonal AI/ego/muse. It's whether or not, barring any outside influence, he could have his muse and ghostrider passenger running at the same time.

Correct. If you have a ghostrider module, you can run your muse on your inserts and have a passenger informorph (heck, could be a fork, if you like) running in the ghostrider moudle.

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Tue, 2011-09-06 05:32

#22

Xagroth

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Sorry, I didn't explain myself the right way before: my intention was to note that a PC shouldn't be able to have both an ecto and the mesh implants active at the same time, he can use one or the other (the one not being use can stay "on standby", or controlled by the muse), because it would be like multiboxing and I didn't see anything in the core book about how things work when something gets done twice (I doubt it counts as teamwork XD). As for the ghostrider's module most obvious function, it would be hacking support or adding the teamwork bonus to all actions. So, rule-wise (and being very munchkin), you can have 3 ghostrider modules implanted with 3 beta forks of yourself, to get a +30 bonus to a lot of abilities. Frankly, even with the regulation of alpha forking (and the "I ignore the law, thanks" attitude of lots of people and corps XD), it's not hard to be a one-man army, specially for people with money. And that can be ignored if you gear your character with the right skills... People said that an AGI origin is like cheating for the unfair advantage of the computer-related skills they get, but you can easily give it a great COG (like starting with 35...), and realize that investing 25 points per knowledge skill lets you have 12 (plus native language) at 60% just with the forced 300 pts., and between that, programming, hardware (robotics and electronics, even nanotech if possible) and a few mor supporting skills, you can create stuff really, really quick. Like starting a matroska chain with a fabber, and while it works, designing a new synthmorph and some nanohives... If you are somewhere with enough raw materials and stealth, well...

Tue, 2011-09-06 07:07

#23

jackgraham jackgraham's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Xagroth wrote:
Sorry, I didn't explain myself the right way before: my intention was to note that a PC shouldn't be able to have both an ecto and the mesh implants active at the same time [...]

Yes. Even if you have a multitasking module or something else that gives you extra mental actions, using inserts and ectos at the same time would be extraordinarily difficult just because while they have different interfaces for input (mental vs. haptics), the output from both would put you in the middle of a self-created messy AR fog.

Xagroth wrote:
As for the ghostrider's module most obvious function, it would be hacking support or adding the teamwork bonus to all actions. So, rule-wise (and being very munchkin), you can have 3 ghostrider modules implanted with 3 beta forks of yourself, to get a +30 bonus to a lot of abilities. Frankly, even with the regulation of alpha forking (and the "I ignore the law, thanks" attitude of lots of people and corps XD), it's not hard to be a one-man army, specially for people with money.

The intended use (or the primary one, anyway) of the Ghostrider is to allow infomorph PCs a way to accompany parties on adventures where mesh access is spotty or where their presence would be downright illegal. Hackers using it to run forks of themselves is a second order application. That said, as a GM, you're always free to decide how many forks of a person can be loose before some of them become NPCs. As NPCs, they might not always have the PC's best interests at heart. And if someone is dumb enough to actually sleeve a dozen alpha forks of themself, they deserve what they get.

Xagroth wrote:
[...] Like starting a matroska chain with a fabber, and while it works, designing a new synthmorph and some nanohives... If you are somewhere with enough raw materials and stealth, well...

Controlling over the top use of nanotech has been discussed elsewhere, but it's similar to rampant forking. GM's just need to step in and say "enough is enough" at some point. Forking and nanotech in some ways are this game's equivalents of the Wish spell in old AD&D: clever players can do horrific things with them if the GM doesn't have the will to either twist their intent or simply say "no." I would tend to err on the side of twisting their intent, e.g., if a PC engages in out of control forking or cloning themself in dozens of synth morphs, NPCs completely unrelated to the adventure at hand may very well spot this activity (see Panopticon for ideas on how), decide the PC is some kind of crazy exhuman or singularity seeker, and mount a strike operation to end the menace. It's a bit like attacking the town guard or a vendor in a massmorg. You can do it, but it's a bad idea.

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Tue, 2011-09-06 17:48

#24

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Xagroth, I think I cited the location for 'multiboxing' (is this a normal term, and why is it so negative?) in the rules. You can use multiple computers… you just have to swap between them with Quick Actions.

Mon, 2011-09-12 07:51

#25

Xagroth

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Jack, I agree 100%, I was just noting some... munchking options regarding those implants. As for the ghostrider module stacking, a player could argue that using that other implant that allows for the generation and destruction of several beta forks "on the fly" to get extra mental actions (and with only enough time to perform the task, being 4 hours the top, not allwing them to diverge from the alpha) to be the answer to the rebellious forks. I think most of these crazy views I have for the nanotec/forking comes for me playing Minecraft (with some mods like Buildcraft, Industrialcraft and Redpower), where you start with your bare hands and can end making machines that produce universal matter... ^^U

Yerameyahu wrote:
Xagroth, I think I cited the location for 'multiboxing' (is this a normal term, and why is it so negative?) in the rules. You can use multiple computers… you just have to swap between them with Quick Actions.

Yeah, but you are using one or the other, not both at once. Essentially, a player with mesh inserts will use an ecto mostly for disguise, not to get mechanical bonuses to tests (at least that's my opinion on that).

Mon, 2011-09-12 08:06

#26

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

Yeah, but that's essentially 'using both at once'. You can only take one action of any kind at a time (more or less), so everything in the game is sequential, not simultaneous. :) I'm not sure what bonus or advantage you'd gain anyway. Our hacker uses his ecto for safety against getting hacked or hurt, because he's a wuss. :( It makes him a much worse hacker, hmf.

Mon, 2011-09-12 23:50

#27

jackgraham jackgraham's picture

Re: Processing Ghostrider Module question

A lava to cobblestone generator isn't "universal matter." It is a pretty cool trick, though. Wait, I haven't played in a while... Did they really add nanobees to Minecraft? :)

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