Thanks for the replies on why there isn't a tab for Gear. I forgot the hardcopy has bookmarks, that'd make it a non-issue. And I loooooove the Takko robo-octomorph. Maybe we'll get an Ikka squid robot morph in the next book? That art is gorgeous.

GreyBrother wrote:

Reminds me of something i wondered about. Are squids intelligent enough to be uplifted? Ohhhh the simple picture of a neo-spermwhale and a neo-squid having a "heated" discussion...

But they're not fighting... o.O

Unity wrote:

Yes; I never had issues with the Game Information being all in one place.

I find that it makes it very easy to find stats in a hurry during a game.

GreyBrother wrote:

Reminds me of something i wondered about. Are squids intelligent enough to be uplifted?

It depends. I have a few of them in my game but the process of re-engineering was sufficiently complex as to be impractical for a number of reasons (chief among them gravity).

I'm reading the part about Bernal spheres (p.58), and I think I'm misunderstanding them. "Though designs have been produced for Bernal spheres up to 16 kilometers in diameter, most are much smaller, ranging from 0.5 to 1.5 kilometers in diameter and providing living space for populations ranging from 10,000 to 200,000." How does a sphere 1.5km in diameter provide housing for 10,000-200,000 humanoids? Is it one giant Japanese-style capsule hotel? (BTW I've stayed in those and they're really fun, I've been incorporating them into my campaigns for the biomorphs). Similar thing with the Cole bubbles. The book says a 10km diameter Cole bubble (functionally identical to a Bernal sphere) can hold several [i]millions[/i] of people. I must be mis-imagining the lifestyle required to fit that many people into such a tiny space. Also, "most Bernal spheres are small enough that you can reach anywhere with a short 20-minute drive or train ride at most." Why does it take a 20 min train ride or vehicle trip to go ~3-6km? There must be some storyline explanation I'm missing- maybe that 20 min includes time to go to the station, wait for the next tram, and fight through the crowds during rush hour. Here in Boston the trains are much faster than that, and we have some of the crummiest trains in the industrialized world.

A few points: The book says on p. 111 that no spaceship has been built that can carry a 10,000 kg whale into orbit. This seems patently absurd to me; that's only ten tons, and the LLOTV can easily carry that, let alone Scum Barges, which can carry an average of 4 thousand tonnes of passengers, by my calculation. They probably use nuclear pulse drives. A single scum barge could carry about 400 whales into orbit. Of course, I can see why they'd prioritized saving 20000 human lives over 400 while lives, but to say it couldn't be done is just factually wrong. Also, why no mention of any attempts at uplifting the near-sapient aliens mentioned in Gatecrashing like the sciurid, hexanewts, and octs? Even a note to the effect of "It's being done, but uplifting takes time, especially when you're dealing with entirely novel biologies" would have been nice. Uplifting octs may be somewhat easier, if you can just spray them with skinlink and protean nanobots programmed to grow-build hypermesh links for them.

If their having trouble Uplifting Dogs, Cats and other Terran Animal Species I can't imagine how hard it would be to try and Uplift an animal with not only an entirely new biology but probably alien cognition. Not to say some folks wouldn't be working on it....Just that for now it would be pretty fringe.

Derp, double post. Mods, please delete?

Arenamontanus wrote:

The problem of transporting a whale might simply be that you need to convert a cargo space into semi-aquatic life support. Doable, but you could spend that time and effort on saving even more normal transhumans willing to pay anything to get off-planet. So most whale uplifts died due to opportunity costs...

Agreed. That said, my point was that the book was just factually wrong, in this case. It also makes me wonder what a whale infected with one of the physically-mutating varieties of the Exsurgent Virus would look like.

Wanted to report that the Hack Packs for Panopticon, Sunward, Gatecrashing (along with the Core Hack Pack) have been 'fixed' as far as the files being fully viewable. All of the pictures I had previous problems with, are now viewable with just "Preview" on my Macbook Pro. Thanks, Posthuman Studios!

nick012000 wrote:

The book says on p. 111 that no spaceship has been built that can carry a 10,000 kg whale into orbit. This seems patently absurd to me; that's only ten tons, and the LLOTV can easily carry that, ...

Then the other issue to consider is...why would they? Up until the time of the Fall, would whales be so stubborn and pigheaded that they NEED their full sized whale biomorph out in space when it's hard enough to get around? I don't think it's so much a matter of "Could" but "Should". Sure they [b]could[/b] build a ship to do it, but why? It's a lot of trouble to get a large, impractical for space biomorph up into the skies when they could just upload as an Infomorph or use a smaller morph. Until The Fall there was no real need to build one, so they didn't. The Fall caught them with their trousers down around their ankles, so to speak, and when the need came about they hadn't built anything that would do the job.

Monican wrote:

I'm reading the part about Bernal spheres (p.58), and I think I'm misunderstanding them.

I agree the space requirements sound impossible at first, but it is quite doable. Lets do some geometry. I'm going to ignore the smaller sizes 'cause I don't have an appropriate real-world comparison, so lets start with the 10km diameter Cole bubble. Surface area of a sphere is 4\pi r^2 \ (4 times pi times radius squared). If the diameter is 10 then the radius is 5. You end up with 314km. For the math that comes next I'm rounding down to 312km to make it all round numbers. The section on Cole bubbles says that the residents live in the central third, so that's 104km. It also says the rest is park/agriculture, so even if you divide that third in half (residential vs. commercial/industrial) you still end up with 52km. Now I know you're saying. 52km is not enough. Answer: Manhattan. Manhattan has a land area of 59km and as of the 2010 census almost 1.6 million people. Manhattan also has somethings a Cole bubble's residential area wouldn't: industry, commercial (office) buildings, garages, warehouses, ports (cruise/sightseeing/ferry), among other things. In fact, most (if not all) of the largest building in Manhattan are commercial, not residential. All of that, if needed, would be in the commercial/industrial area, and that's no even considering all the buildings that are store, but the ground floor of most apartments are also stores. Given cornucopia machines these should be significantly decreased. Plus there is Manhattan's geology. (Bear with me.) The bedrock under Manhattan is near the surface only at the north and south ends. Bedrock is needed to build tall buildings, so in between are a lot of low (average of say 6 stories) apartment buildings. There are even whole neighborhoods of brownstones, which given the description of apartments in Panopticon, could house a half dozen units, instead of the single, well-off, families you find in some Manhattan brownstones. With the decrease in apartment sizes, reclaiming of commercial/industrial areas for homes, and taller buildings (which should be possible with updated building techniques and "bedrock" (the station's hull) underneath everything) it should be more then possible to exceed 2 million without breaking a sweat. Which technically is millions. That's not even considering the synthmorphs who could live on the outside, or in other areas. Plus infomorphs. Also the 20 minute ride thing? Assuming the train is at the circumference (piD or pi time diameter) you get 31.4KM. The book never actually says what size of sphere they're basing the time on, but that may also include traversing the up/down axis as well as the circumference. Which may include train changes. Besides it says "most" spheres would need a 20 minute ride "at most". We're not taking lap of luxury here. With the smaller living spaces and the accepted decrease in privacy, in my opinion it is doable.

OK, after going over the whole book once, and as I've been tinkering with an AGI character who hides his AGI-hood, as he's going about in Hypercorp lands... Just how hard is it to do this? What I'm seeing in Brainprint scan rules in "Identification" is: -30 Variable Opposed Test - Interfacing (the one scanning), and Infosec (the one scanned). But, in the "Identification" section, under "Brainprint Scans", the scanner gets a whopper +30 Interfacing Test, *just* to detect AGI or Uplift egos... Does this mean, even WITH a Fake Brainprint Plug-in, the 'best-case scenario' would be that the scanned AGI or Uplift would have to deal with only a 'everyday' Brainprint Scanner, and the scanner's Sensor AI (COG 10, Interfacing 40). That'd mean the Scanner device would have a total test value of 100 for an AGI to 'beat' in the Variable Opposed Test, in order to hide AGI-ness and ID? And trained users would likely have higher COG or Interfacings traits... Could someone look into this further, and break it down better as to how hiding from Brainprint Scanners works? Somehow, it's looking bleak for AGIs or Uplifts to 'hide' the origins of their egos....

s45qu4tch][quote=Herbo wrote:

Damn, looked up Non-Euclidean on Wiki and followed the Klein Bottle link. To early in the morning for that. Lovecraft might've been right.

Now there is a non-standard hab waiting to happen. I can see a bunch of performance artists using Hamilton cylinder building techniques to create a Klein bottle environment within a habitat.

Clunker wrote:

OK, after going over the whole book once, and as I've been tinkering with an AGI character who hides his AGI-hood, as he's going about in Hypercorp lands... Just how hard is it to do this? What I'm seeing in Brainprint scan rules in "Identification" is: -30 Variable Opposed Test - Interfacing (the one scanning), and Infosec (the one scanned). But, in the "Identification" section, under "Brainprint Scans", the scanner gets a whopper +30 Interfacing Test, *just* to detect AGI or Uplift egos... Does this mean, even WITH a Fake Brainprint Plug-in, the 'best-case scenario' would be that the scanned AGI or Uplift would have to deal with only a 'everyday' Brainprint Scanner, and the scanner's Sensor AI (COG 10, Interfacing 40). That'd mean the Scanner device would have a total test value of 100 for an AGI to 'beat' in the Variable Opposed Test, in order to hide AGI-ness and ID? And trained users would likely have higher COG or Interfacings traits... Could someone look into this further, and break it down better as to how hiding from Brainprint Scanners works? Somehow, it's looking bleak for AGIs or Uplifts to 'hide' the origins of their egos....

The way I read this is as follows: "Brainprint scans of biomorphs in the field are conducted with a brainprint scanner (p. 152)...If the test fails to produce a match, the subject will usually be taken in for a more detailed scan with full medical scanning gear (apply a +30 modifier to the Interfacing Test)." (Panopticon, 158) This suggests to me that an "in the field" scan does not get this particular +30. That is a side effect of "full medical scanning gear" as opposed to the portable scanner. Note that the subject is only taken in if the test [i]fails to produce a match[/i]. Against the normal "in the field" scanning gear one might find used at, say, a security checkpoint, the AGI or uplift using a Fake Brainprint Plugin rolls their normal Infosec in an opposed test while the person/AI running the scanner rolls at -30...But the scanner has a +30 to detect AGIs or Uplift brain patterns, so this cancels out, giving an [i]unmodified[/i] contested roll of Interface v. Infosec. Given that the stereotypical AGI is likely to have a significantly high Infosec skill this places the advantage in the AGI's court. The scans of AGIs and Uplifts are automatically identifiable as non-human, per p.159 and receive a +30 modifier on the scanner's Interfacing test for determining the subject's exact nature. But if your AGI or Uplift has a Fake Brainprint Plugin that matches a 'legal' AGI or Uplift, and is trying to pass [i]as[/i] that individual, that isn't a problem. The +30 to the scanner's roll is only a bonus to identify the subject's [i]nature[/i]. So if the subject isn't concealing its [i]nature[/i] but only its [i]identity[/i] that isn't a problem. On the other hand, an AGI attempting to pass as a 'human' would be revealed at that point. I consider an FBP to be like any other form of false ID. If it's noticed and run against records, you have no hope unless the records are a close match. It's a "fake brainprint" not a "brainprint scanner jammer". So for optimal success a character using an FBP is going to want one which matches them to some extent (I.E., human, AGI or Uplift) in the same fashion that someone trying to falsify an ID as someone else would pick someone who had a similar physical description (height, facial features, hair, eyes). I'd therefore be handling the rolls as follows: 1. Is the subject a human/AGI/Uplift ego with an FBP that matches it (I.E., is a FBP of a human/AGI or Uplift?)? If yes, scanner rolls at -30 to their Interfacing test contested against the subject's Infosec. 2. Is the subject an AGI/Uplift ego using an FBP to masquerade as a human ego? If yes, scanner has a +30 to their Interfacing test to notice that it's an Uplift/AGI masking as something else...But that +30 doesn't affect their Interfacing test to see if the ego matches the database. This mimics the result of 'Yes, your driver's license is in the system.'...And is the officer on the ball enough notice something else weird about it...Like the age not matching the birthdate.). In other words, the scanner might get "This is definitely Bob, the human." while the person running the scan notices "That's weird. Bob the human's brainprint looks like an octopus brainprint rather than a human one." (and presumably pushes a red shiny button...Or if they fail that roll, they are effectively asleep at the wheel, see the green light for 'database match, no alerts' and just waves them on through.). 3. Is the subject a human ego attempting to masquerade as an AGI/Uplift? You might want to consider applying some GM fiat mods here...A person seeing human brainprints all day might not notice that the octopus's brainprint SHOULD look odd, providing the scanner beeps and says 'This checks with the database.' Partly this will depend on local biases. In the more hyperconservative habitats of the Inner System, an AGI will probably ring a lot of alarms, and it may not be possible to have a 'legal' record to make a FBP of...I.E., if AGIs aren't allowed to be wandering around in morphs at all, that'll be an issue. Uplifts likely have it easier, as even in environments where they are indentures/slaves, some probably have more freedom and mobility than others (trustees and the like). I do think this could have been much better structured so that all of the notations on bonuses and penalties to the opposed and their interactions and probably results had been put in one place, all together with explanation of such specific situations.

Re-Laborat wrote:

... 1. Is the subject a human/AGI/Uplift ego with an FBP that matches it (I.E., is a FBP of a human/AGI or Uplift?)? If yes, scanner rolls at -30 to their Interfacing test contested against the subject's Infosec. 2. Is the subject an AGI/Uplift ego using an FBP to masquerade as a human ego? If yes, scanner has a +30 to their Interfacing test to notice that it's an Uplift/AGI masking as something else...But that +30 doesn't affect their Interfacing test to see if the ego matches the database. This mimics the result of 'Yes, your driver's license is in the system.'...And is the officer on the ball enough notice something else weird about it...Like the age not matching the birthdate.). In other words, the scanner might get "This is definitely Bob, the human." while the person running the scan notices "That's weird. Bob the human's brainprint looks like an octopus brainprint rather than a human one." (and presumably pushes a red shiny button...Or if they fail that roll, they are effectively asleep at the wheel, see the green light for 'database match, no alerts' and just waves them on through.). 3. Is the subject a human ego attempting to masquerade as an AGI/Uplift? You might want to consider applying some GM fiat mods here...A person seeing human brainprints all day might not notice that the octopus's brainprint SHOULD look odd, providing the scanner beeps and says 'This checks with the database.' Partly this will depend on local biases. In the more hyperconservative habitats of the Inner System, an AGI will probably ring a lot of alarms, and it may not be possible to have a 'legal' record to make a FBP of...I.E., if AGIs aren't allowed to be wandering around in morphs at all, that'll be an issue. Uplifts likely have it easier, as even in environments where they are indentures/slaves, some probably have more freedom and mobility than others (trustees and the like). I do think this could have been much better structured so that all of the notations on bonuses and penalties to the opposed and their interactions and probably results had been put in one place, all together with explanation of such specific situations.

Ah, this makes more sense - Brainprint Scanners actually detects TWO things: ID (That's Bob) and also Brain Type (Human/AGI/Uplift). FBP provides a false ID, but unless the Infosec roll is higher than the Scanner's roll by 30+, the Scanner will flag a differing Brain "Type". FBP's don't directly 'help' with the "Brain Type" part of the scan... interesting thing to note. But, as the 'Brain Type' bonus is the same as the Scanner's penalty... Does this not mean that if a Scanner rolls well enough for an initial success, the scanner will ALWAYS detect a AGI/Uplift who's masquerading as a Human? How may AGIs hide as another Brain Type - or CAN they, with any reliability? FBP seems to mainly help just on the ID verification, and someone with the 'wrong' Brain Type will just have to depend on the -30 Penalty to screw up initial detection... but if the Scanner gets past that penalty, they're screwed. Really looking for a way my AGI can still hide his presence as an AGI in Hypercorp-controlled areas, as HCs often enslave any AGIs found in their areas, and what they'd do to an infiltrating AGI is likely not good.

Your ego would still be bio in origin. As far as I understand the rules. :)

Clunker wrote:

Ah, this makes more sense - Brainprint Scanners actually detects TWO things: ID (That's Bob) and also Brain Type (Human/AGI/Uplift). FBP provides a false ID, but unless the Infosec roll is higher than the Scanner's roll by 30+, the Scanner will flag a differing Brain "Type". FBP's don't directly 'help' with the "Brain Type" part of the scan... interesting thing to note. But, as the 'Brain Type' bonus is the same as the Scanner's penalty... Does this not mean that if a Scanner rolls well enough for an initial success, the scanner will ALWAYS detect a AGI/Uplift who's masquerading as a Human? How may AGIs hide as another Brain Type - or CAN they, with any reliability? FBP seems to mainly help just on the ID verification, and someone with the 'wrong' Brain Type will just have to depend on the -30 Penalty to screw up initial detection... but if the Scanner gets past that penalty, they're screwed. Really looking for a way my AGI can still hide his presence as an AGI in Hypercorp-controlled areas, as HCs often enslave any AGIs found in their areas, and what they'd do to an infiltrating AGI is likely not good.

As I interpret it (and I could surely be wrong), the scanner doesn't 'flag' it, which is why a separate roll is involved. It shows a nice interesting graphic representative of the brain pattern which a skilled technician can draw other conclusions from (honestly at that point I would include some bonus to kinesics...We can already see the difference between an agitated/frightened brain, a creative sleeping brain, and a listless/bored brain). The technician is likely to notice that DOLPHIN BRAIN PATTERNS ARE FRICKIN' WEIRD LOOKING, MAN and that's this pattern is probably a dolphin brain. What the scanner is looking for is 'Is this a clean scan or am I being jammed?' and 'Does this scan match a print in the local registry?'. Anything else is up to the entity using the scanner to interpret (thus the test). Basically it sounds like the answer you want is: "Is there a foolproof way for my AGI to wander around Inner System space masquerading as a normative human brain to brainscan technology?" No. A skilled technician has a good shot at beating them on an opposed test. Even if they beat the technician out, their false brainscan profile had better match something in the system or they will get picked up and picked apart. So an AGI that wants to go undercover in the Solar 'Deep South' needs to (1) have an INTENSE Infosec skill, probably with a specialization in using false brainscan profiles, (2) have a seemingly ironclad identity-of-record in the local law-enforcement/population control/BuSab databases that matches their FBP (so the scanner doesn't light up with 'unknown person') and needs a bit of luck nonetheless. They should optimally try to avoid security checkpoints whenever possible, because sooner or later their luck will run out. But, you know...This is just like any other setting with concepts of security and ID. Wave forged ID around high security checkpoints often enough and sooner or later no matter how good it is, someone will notice something, unless it is so good it amounts to a 'real' ID for a nonexistent person (such as a carefully cultivated dead baby). So an illegal AGI would be more likely to avoid suspicion and investigation if it masqueraded as a 'trustee' AGI than if it pretended to be a human. Nothing is foolproof. Nothing is 100%. But that hardly makes things unplayable and often makes things exciting. I'd love to see someone from PH weigh in on this in regards to if we're interpreting the rolls right and how the scanner/FBP interaction rolls are meant to work. It's kind of vague. I think my interpretation makes sense...Or I wouldn't consider it a useful interpretation...But it's still my interpretation of something that I feel the game manual should have made clear. Screw it. This is unclear enough that I'm putting it into the 'Errata' post rather than the 'Discussion' post.

Quote:

[i]Yerameyahu[/i] "One thing that jumped out at me is the negligible cost (Low) for a mod that utterly negates camouflage effects. I understand that the stealth arms race is the point, but I was surprised."

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, and sorry if I missed it, but by the wording, it doesn't. According to my .pdf, Polarization Vision allows the PC to ignore "negative visual Perception modifiers for camouflage, transparency, or viewing underwater." It also, at the GM's discretion, may provide a bonus for detecting patterns and relevant Navigation rolls. If we're sticking closely to RAW, this is important, because most CovOps gear provides a positive bonus to the opposed Infiltration check, IIRC. So this doesn't totally nerf sneaky types or anything. It does, however, make me wonder when in EP negative Perception modifiers are given for camouflage, rather than just having an opposed roll. Maybe it's just how my group plays, but we've always just used opposed rolls for that. As an aside, is Polarization Vision included in Enhanced Vision, or not? It doesn't gel quite as well as other visual enhancements (e.g. UV vision) with Enhanced Vision's description, nor the section in the back of Panopticon.

Axel: I consulted the guys working on the Outer System while working on that section, so that means I did my job! :) Thanks for the feedback! Monican: I think the previous posts on population density covered your questions pretty well. I was trying to balance those kinds of numbers with what we've seen established in the previous books. It really comes down to the fact that you can use the volume more efficiently than what we're used to on the ground. As for the 20 minutes, that's incorporating exchanges and spin adaptation for the largest habitats. If you go too fast while going from effective microgravity to a spin, you're going to get some weird neurovestibular effects if you don't have the right adaptations or mods.