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Ultimates and Mercurials

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Sun, 2010-10-31 13:17
#1
Unity Unity's picture
Ultimates and Mercurials
I was looking at the two, and I began to wonder at the similarities and differences... It seems easy enough to go ahead and just state "Ultimates are for human-originated transhumans, Mercurials are an equivilent faction for Uplifts and AGI", but I don't think that quite lines up correctly in reality. How do the two groups interact philosophically and politically, anyway? How many Uplifts and AGI do you figure are in the Ultimates? How many humans seeking to become something alien count themselves among the Mercurials? etc.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 14:04
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Honestly, I do not think of the two groups together at all. The Ultimates are, essentially, eugenicists of the worst variety. They want to eradicate any and all imperfections of the body, impose their own will on others because of a perceived superiority (which, admittedly, is sometimes a very real superiority) and they do so by being militarily active. The Mercurial on the other hand are fighting for equivalent rights for anything that someone might not perceive as human. The Inner System is a horrible place to live as an uplifted octopus. On many habitats you literally have no rights at all and are considered property. If you are killed it is not even considered murder, it is either vandalism or destruction of property, and it is punished as such. It is just as bad for an AGI, with many such beings enslaved performing menial administration tasks with little future to look forward to outside of the office. While I am sure that there are extremist Mercurial abound (The kind of segregation and discrimination they face is sure to stir up feelings of discontent) I think it would look very similar to the Civil Rights movement that the States went through, with many characters resembling both Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. advocating for freedom and equal rights with varying methods. There will of course be militant Mercurial, as well as those who advocate Mercurial supremacy (Eight Limbs > Four!) but, unlike the Ultimate movement, I do not think that such characters would be considered leaders.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 14:21
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Well, the similarities I was seeing was mostly in the extremists, I admit. Though I might have been thinking more along the lines of 'Exhumans' rather than 'Ultimates', what with Uplifts and AGI in the Mercurial faction seeking to distance themselves from the limitations of being considered transhumans, rather than their own species.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 14:59
root root's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
root@Ultimates and Mercurials [hr]
CodeBreaker wrote:
There will of course be militant Mercurial, as well as those who advocate Mercurial supremacy (Eight Limbs > Four!)
Oh, hell yes. I'm going to go draw a picture of an Octomorph protester holding as sign with "8 LIMBS > 4!" on it.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 18:25
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Unity wrote:
Well, the similarities I was seeing was mostly in the extremists, I admit. Though I might have been thinking more along the lines of 'Exhumans' rather than 'Ultimates', what with Uplifts and AGI in the Mercurial faction seeking to distance themselves from the limitations of being considered transhumans, rather than their own species.
The Mercurials are actually more akin to a civil rights group than an actual faction. The primary purpose behind the movement is to push for equal rights for those who do not have human origins. The faction isn't so much about distancing themselves from humanity, but rather about being treated as equals to humanity. Furthermore, it's about allowing non-humans sapient beings to be able to raise their children and future generations to not necessarily have human tendencies; most AGI and uplifts are hardwired to fit into human social norms, while the Mercurials believe that should be a choice and not something they are programmed to do.
CodeBreaker wrote:
Honestly, I do not think of the two groups together at all. The Ultimates are, essentially, eugenicists of the worst variety. They want to eradicate any and all imperfections of the body, impose their own will on others because of a perceived superiority (which, admittedly, is sometimes a very real superiority) and they do so by being militarily active. The Mercurial on the other hand are fighting for equivalent rights for anything that someone might not perceive as human. The Inner System is a horrible place to live as an uplifted octopus. On many habitats you literally have no rights at all and are considered property. If you are killed it is not even considered murder, it is either vandalism or destruction of property, and it is punished as such. It is just as bad for an AGI, with many such beings enslaved performing menial administration tasks with little future to look forward to outside of the office. While I am sure that there are extremist Mercurial abound (The kind of segregation and discrimination they face is sure to stir up feelings of discontent) I think it would look very similar to the Civil Rights movement that the States went through, with many characters resembling both Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. advocating for freedom and equal rights with varying methods. There will of course be militant Mercurial, as well as those who advocate Mercurial supremacy (Eight Limbs > Four!) but, unlike the Ultimate movement, I do not think that such characters would be considered leaders.
The difference is largely in the purpose of the political movement. The Mercurials are a social rights order, while the Ultimates are largely a philosophical order. Not all Ultimates are going to be extremists in the same way that not all Mercurials are extremists. For the most part, the Ultimates movement is the polar opposite of the Bioconservative movement; they believe that refusing to enhance one's body and well-being is an evil in the same way that Biocons believe that artificial enhancement is an evil. The Mercurials are a stark contrast from this spectrum, in that their movement is largely about social acceptance.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 19:20
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Hm. So that brings me to another question, this one specifically pointed at Decivre: how do you see the Ultimates viewing Uplifts and AGI, and what sort of place do you see them having among the group?
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Sun, 2010-10-31 19:32
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Unity wrote:
Hm. So that brings me to another question, this one specifically pointed at Decivre: how do you see the Ultimates viewing Uplifts and AGI, and what sort of place do you see them having among the group?
I don't see them necessarily disdaining them. I even see the possibility that there is at least a small percentage of AGI and Uplifts amongst them. However, I do see a philosophical difference between the Mercurial movement and the Ultimates, in that I see the Ultimates as not necessarily tying their identities to their species. The Ultimates' primary focus is physical and mental perfection, and most would happily discard their species if it brought them closer to that goal. The Mercurial movement is closely tied to identity as a species, and this means that those who identify themselves as Mercurials might be less inclined to enhance themselves to a point where their concept of species begins to get muddled.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 19:53
Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
I'm with Decivre on this. I imagine actually that several Ultimates are probably investigating many ways to improve the specie and reach a further perfection from those things that can be learned from AGIs and Uplifts. Afterall, Ultimates are rather pragmatic, is something is better, you should use it in order to be stronger than others. So, if something AGIs or Uplifts do is better, you must learn it and include it. For the same reason, I don't think they hold a specific grudge against them in any way, not at least more than the one they'd hold against any other person, which would depend on their perceived "strength". For the same reason, since Ultimate ideology has nothing to do with a specific specie, I can imagine that an ideology of individual strength could probably be quite appealing to some AGIs and Octolifts (Octopus' aren't social creatures afterall); probably avians could also be interesting, depending on what kind of birds they were (Eagles for example could be very interested, like ravens, but certainly not those flying in a flock). On the other side, most homid uplifted wouldn't be interested, being mostly a social community with a relatively low level of "power" (maybe their alpha members would be attracted, though).
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Sun, 2010-10-31 20:05
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Sepherim wrote:
For the same reason, since Ultimate ideology has nothing to do with a specific specie, I can imagine that an ideology of individual strength could probably be quite appealing to some AGIs and Octolifts (Octopus' aren't social creatures afterall); probably avians could also be interesting, depending on what kind of birds they were (Eagles for example could be very interested, like ravens, but certainly not those flying in a flock). On the other side, most homid uplifted wouldn't be interested, being mostly a social community with a relatively low level of "power" (maybe their alpha members would be attracted, though).
Actually, I think that the Ultimates ideology is a bit more social than personal in nature. I think this is actually the key element that separates them from the Exhumans. To the Exhumans, evolution is a competition, and those who are on top have the right to prey on those below them in their food chain. To the Ultimates, perfection is something that transhumanity will push towards as a group, even if that means evangelizing the movement or using military force to do so (depending on whether you are a moderate or extremist, of course). In fact, I see some elements of the Ultimates as having many similarities to a religious order, without necessarily being one... the most indoctrinated members probably call themselves acolytes or brothers, while the more lax probably just consider themselves members of the group. I'd imagine that those who live on Xiphos probably have the largest similarities to a religious brotherhood.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 20:12
Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Hm. You do have a point, but I actually don't think Exhumans are individualists, but instead they would probably gather in scientist communities and such. Transcending humanity's limits doesn't mean necessarily doing it alone. On the other hand, though Ultimates may band together (they probably have mercenary units for example) the continuous competition over strength, adaptation and survival would probably still make them individualistic even if social individualists. Individualists in a sense of modern individualism, where people are very self-centered and focused on their own thing, not as in isolationism (they're certainly not Brinkers).
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Sun, 2010-10-31 20:12
Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Sorry, double post.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 20:49
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Sepherim wrote:
Hm. You do have a point, but I actually don't think Exhumans are individualists, but instead they would probably gather in scientist communities and such. Transcending humanity's limits doesn't mean necessarily doing it alone. On the other hand, though Ultimates may band together (they probably have mercenary units for example) the continuous competition over strength, adaptation and survival would probably still make them individualistic even if social individualists. Individualists in a sense of modern individualism, where people are very self-centered and focused on their own thing, not as in isolationism (they're certainly not Brinkers).
Well, the Exhumans probably do work together in small groups, but they don't see themselves as having any obligation to help the rest of transhumanity find their way toward the singularity. To them, any who aren't seeking the singularity are just a food source for those that are. Philosophical individualism is not quite the same as egoism (the belief that the only person that matters is yourself). Individualism is the belief that society does not need to be prioritized over the needs of the individual. In fact, most fundamental rights are individualistic in nature: freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms and the right to own property are all individualistic rights. The Ultimates' ideology works under this precept just fine; the Ultimates as a group are likely very Libertarian in nature. Those that succeed may do so on the basis of merits... and the same goes for those who fail. This does not mean that charity does not exist among the Ultimates, just that it isn't demanded.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 21:10
root root's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
root@Ultimates and Mercurials [hr] I imagine you are referring to transhumans with Exhuman sympathies? The Ultimates are a group that can be labeled as technofascists, but at least they are recognizably transhuman. The Singluarity seeking Exhumans who have taken the jump and TITAN worshipers are pretty much beyond the pale.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 21:13
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Personal experiance, root?
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Sun, 2010-10-31 22:15
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
root wrote:
root@Ultimates and Mercurials [hr] I imagine you are referring to transhumans with Exhuman sympathies? The Ultimates are a group that can be labeled as technofascists, but at least they are recognizably transhuman. The Singluarity seeking Exhumans who have taken the jump and TITAN worshipers are pretty much beyond the pale.
Even the hyper-evolutionist Exhumans are pretty close to the edge of the pale. Most Exhumans will submit themselves to modifications that often sacrifice their own sanity or intelligence, simply for the sake of being a superior lifeform. At least the Ultimates recognize that perfection is something that has to be achieved both mentally and physically. The Exhumans are posthuman in the worst way... they care little for cost or consequence as they push toward what they themselves see as divinity.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 22:38
root root's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
root@Ultimates and Mercurials [hr] Hey, root is totally not on trial here. And isn't infected. But where exactly is the divide line? It seems to me that the only real difference between Exhumans and Ultimates is that the Ultimates have meat bodies. The same goes for the Mercurials that aren't AGI. Just based on that, I would guess that most Uplifted Mercurians don't really trust or support AGIs in their claims to be transhuman.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 22:48
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Well, that much we can agree on. Hypocritical Uplifts is a very real probability.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 22:58
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
root wrote:
root@Ultimates and Mercurials [hr] Hey, root is totally not on trial here. And isn't infected. But where exactly is the divide line? It seems to me that the only real difference between Exhumans and Ultimates is that the Ultimates have meat bodies. The same goes for the Mercurials that aren't AGI. Just based on that, I would guess that most Uplifted Mercurians don't really trust or support AGIs in their claims to be transhuman.
Actually, the listed Exhumans in the Gamemaster chapter of the book are biomorphs. Also, I don't see any particular reason why the Ultimates would necessarily be averse to using synthmorphs. The primary difference between the two groups is in the scale by which they operate. The Ultimates are a group of social Darwinists seeking mental and physical perfection, while the Exhumans are a cult of singularity seekers. It's a semantical difference, but about as great as the divide between the Religion of Islam and Al-Qaeda. In keeping with that comparative, I will go so far as to say that the Exhumans probably started as a subgroup of the Ultimates faction, which broke off when the rest of the Ultimates saw them as "too extreme", or when the Exhumans saw the Ultimates as "not extreme enough". As for the Mercurials, remember that they are just as capable of the logical follies that humans are, even if they aren't human. As such, they will probably fall prey to the same thing that human societies are; AGI and octomorphs are just as capable of racism and speciesism as anyone else. You saw the same thing in other civil rights movements: for every Martin Luther King, there's a Malcolm X just waiting to screw things up.
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Sun, 2010-10-31 23:08
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
So, since we're talking about AGI and Ultimates in the same thread, here's a good question: how would they feel about an AGI member trying to take their development to its logical conclusion? Or would that fit into the 'too extreme' and kick the AGI into the 'Exhuman' category?
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Sun, 2010-10-31 23:24
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Unity wrote:
So, since we're talking about AGI and Ultimates in the same thread, here's a good question: how would they feel about an AGI member trying to take their development to its logical conclusion? Or would that fit into the 'too extreme' and kick the AGI into the 'Exhuman' category?
I'm pretty sure that most Ultimates aren't okay with seed AI. To be fair though, how many people do you honestly believe are okay with seed AI in a system that was devastated by them a decade ago? The problem here though is the hard takeoff... the Ultimates are all about self-discipline and asceticism, which is something that comes over time with a lot of effort. I think to some degree, they probably blame a lack of discipline on why we lost control of the TITANs... creating seed AI from nothing is akin to giving the power of gods to infants.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 12:56
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
I wouldn't think the Ultimates themselves would be adverse to Seed AI. More that its members would be. As in there is nothing in the Ultimate philosophy that indicates that, had the Fall not occurred, they would attempt to suppress such developments. But the Fall did happen, and so basically anyone who isn't an Exhuman or an X-risk detests even the thought of new Seed AI developing simply because they are so very dangerous.
Spoiler: Highlight to view
Which is why I am sometimes surprised that Firewall works with the Promethean at all, even if they are possibly the “good guys”.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 13:23
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
CodeBreaker wrote:
I wouldn't think the Ultimates themselves would be adverse to Seed AI. More that its members would be. As in there is nothing in the Ultimate philosophy that indicates that, had the Fall not occurred, they would attempt to suppress such developments. But the Fall did happen, and so basically anyone who isn't an Exhuman or an X-risk detests even the thought of new Seed AI developing simply because they are so very dangerous.
We could say that about every organization. Had the TITANs been a success, and actually been positive seed AI that benefitted humanity, do you really think that most would have loathed them to as great a degree? Would seed AI, in this alternate universe where the TITANs were the saviors of humanity, go against any political philosophy besides bioconservativism (and even then, bioconservatives aren't necessarily against AI so long as they serve us)? I don't think the Ultimates are any different from anyone else on that subject.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 20:40
Sepherim Sepherim's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Me neither, Ultimates like all transhumans are sons of their time. Still, both Exhuman and Ultimate ideology are probably powered by the TITAN upsurging and the consequent Fall, as both ideologies revolve in a way to improve transhumanity; with it, many would see them as paths in which to prepare transhumanity in case of their return or other x-threats, and so many paranoids and such could turn to both Exhuman and Ultimate ideologies as a base to start working on saving transhumanity from possible threats.
Spoiler: Highlight to view
I'm not sure Firewall knows they are working with them. I imagine the Prometheans are very very careful about letting anyone know about their existance, and being seeds as they are, I bet they are very, very good at hiding.
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Mon, 2010-11-01 21:32
root root's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
root@Ultimates and Mercurials [hr] Speaking of the inherent dangers of seed AI, and how to deal with them once they've gone bad: has anyone else seen the Sarah Connor Chronicles? The character Mrs Weaver is a seed AI who is raising another seed AI John Henry, and is attempting to make sure that the child learns morality and ethics. In the interim, she learns morality and ethics from John Henry's development.
Spoiler: Highlight to view
She is basically a Promethean, raising another Promethean to fight the TITANs if they ever come back.
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Tue, 2011-06-14 21:35
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Bringing back my own thread, there seems to be a prejudice among the Ultimates against Uplifts based on the fact that starting as an Ultimate means you can't have an Uplift biomorph. Just an observation.
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Wed, 2011-06-15 04:13
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
From what I got from the snippets about the Mercurials, they are a faction that's more than just social justice for non-human transhumans (AGI and uplifts) but are a faction of those same non-humans who seek to expand what it means to be transhuman, by rejecting humanity as the norm for transhumanity. They are the sorts to say "yeah, I am not human, and why would I want to be?" which sort of tacitly implies that those who support uplift rights but not that sort of Mercurial mindset are basically advocating having the non-humans act like humans. Between Ultimates and Exhumans, the Ultimates still identify as transhuman, they just believe that transhumanity will only survive if its strong enough, fit enough, etc., and that the Ultimates will be the ones to thrive because they're willing to be the best, etc. Ubermench sort of stuff, while the exhumans have rejected transhumanity and are this universe's version of radical idea bad guys, the Always Chaotic Evil faction. The difference between singularity-seeking brinkers and exhumans is their antagonism with the rest of transhumanity. Or that's how I've read it all.
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Wed, 2011-06-15 05:07
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
And for some reason the Ultimates can't start with Uplift morphs.
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Wed, 2011-06-15 05:49
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
They can. They just need to take the Second Skin positive trait. Also, what happens if you take the Uplift background, and the Ultimate faction? One requires you to be sleeved in an uplifted morph, the other disallows it :D
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Wed, 2011-06-15 09:41
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Why would an ultimate want an uplift morph? Uplift morphs are retro; they're made to recreate a species which has effectively gone extinct. Ultimates believe in moving forward, in making something better. If you took a neoraven and used it as a template for neoraven 2.0 that would be one thing, but tying yourself to neoraven 1.0 is self-defeating.
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Wed, 2011-06-15 10:03
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
I'm pretty sure the Ultimates also value moving forwards *as humans*. If they just cared about raw power, they'd be robots, right?
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Wed, 2011-06-15 15:42
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Probably; synthmorphs give you much more bang for your buck when it comes to morph efficiency. Maybe a lot of them just find biomorphs more comfortable, like a lot of transhuman egos do? I mean, no one's perfect in their devotion to an ideal.
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Wed, 2011-06-15 15:50
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
It's hard to say, and I think that's most of the tension of the Ultimates. As far as I can understand, they're not going for pure strength (as we said, a robot/spaceship running a super-informorph probably nails that down). I have to assume they're somehow weighing humanity against universe-surviving?
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Thu, 2011-06-16 02:28
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Yerameyahu wrote:
It's hard to say, and I think that's most of the tension of the Ultimates. As far as I can understand, they're not going for pure strength (as we said, a robot/spaceship running a super-informorph probably nails that down). I have to assume they're somehow weighing humanity against universe-surviving?
There might well be internal divisions within the faction regarding the development paths that should be taken by transhumans.
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Fri, 2011-06-17 13:10
Rallan Rallan's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
CodeBreaker wrote:
They can. They just need to take the Second Skin positive trait. Also, what happens if you take the Uplift background, and the Ultimate faction? One requires you to be sleeved in an uplifted morph, the other disallows it :D
Man I'm trying to get my head around an Uplift who's also an Ultimate. "Look it's not that we hate the vast bulk of transhumanity, it's just that we think those who aren't striving to become ubermensch-" "And uberkrake!" "Yes thankyou Paul, and uberkrake - that they are no longer players in our collective destiny."
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Fri, 2011-06-17 14:03
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
From a game perspective, I'm sure it's fine. There are all kinds of reasons anyone might find themselves in any given morph, so paying the CP for Second Skin is plenty fair. It'd be amusing to incorporate just the kind of factional conflict Rallan mentions. :)
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Fri, 2011-06-17 14:09
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
"It does not matter what kind of body, genome or species one happens to be born with. What matters is realizing the need to advance to perfection, and then the single-minded pursuit of perfection."
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Extropian
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Fri, 2011-06-17 14:14
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Yes. That *could* mean that Uplift egos are okay, but Uplift morphs are 'failing to advance to perfection'… unless you simply haven't had the chance to upgrade. Or… not. :) I love the way everything contains multitudes.
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Sat, 2011-06-18 05:59
Rallan Rallan's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Yerameyahu wrote:
From a game perspective, I'm sure it's fine. There are all kinds of reasons anyone might find themselves in any given morph, so paying the CP for Second Skin is plenty fair. It'd be amusing to incorporate just the kind of factional conflict Rallan mentions. :)
Well getting past excuses for silly dialogue, I don't think it would necessarily involve factional conflict. As long as you're committed to transcending the limitations of biology and instinct (and you buy into the Ultimate idea that those limitations include quite a lot of concepts that most transhumans are rather attached to, like compassion or an interest in art for its own sake or unconditional love or the ability to really enjoy chocolate), I'm sure the Ultimates don't really care whether your distant ancestors were clubbing gazelles on the savannah or hanging out in coral reef crevices. As long as your favourite X-Men character was Magneto, you're in.
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Sat, 2011-06-18 08:24
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Well, that's kind of what I was addressing: the morph you're *in* doesn't have tons to do with your 'natural' state. It's one thing to be an Uplift, another to (willingly) wear an Uplift morph.
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Sat, 2011-06-18 08:52
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Solution:- The Ultimates have Remade versions of the uplifted morphs we already have?
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Sat, 2011-06-18 09:12
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
I'm not sure if that's addressing the (possible) problem, though. :) We're saying that, based on the Ultimate morph-restrictions, Uplifts (and synths) aren't 'bio-perfect' enough, or whatever. That may or may not be a valid conclusion in the first place. In the second place, it could be because the Uplift morphs aren't 'humanoid' enough, or that they're not 'perfect' enough; the Ultimate ideals on that score aren't clearly exact, at least to me. Based on what's given about them, they do seem to have an ideal that more or less fits the Remade: embodied, bio, human-ish, upgraded. This could be wrong, or it could be wrong for individuals/subgroups of the Ultimates. This is a little off-topic, but would Ultimates have cyberlimbs-plus (say, on their Remade)? The benefits are relatively significant, but you're trading flesh for it.
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Sat, 2011-06-18 13:28
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
I am kind of iffy about turning Ultimates into a sect of biochauvinists.
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Sat, 2011-06-18 13:59
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Sure, but we're just going on what we have to go on. :) I misspoke earlier, though: Ultimates are *not* barred from synthmorphs. They're barred from 'inferior' biomorphs, and *typically* have biomorphs (merely according to the examples).
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Sun, 2011-06-19 09:38
BOMherren BOMherren's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Is this early biochauvinism I'm seeing? ;) I see no reason why nonhumanoid or nonbiological morphs are inherently inferior. All morphs have advantages and disadvantages, and it really all depends on what you want to be able to do. If anything, I'd think e.g. non-uplift Ultimates might be [i]more[/i] inclined to use uplift morphs than other non-uplifts, because they are more apt to recognize their specific advantages, and a lot less likely to be perturbed by that feeling of strangeness and unfamiliarity.
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Sun, 2011-06-19 09:49
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Some morphs are a hell of a lot more equal than others. For example, even with their synthetic bonuses, most synthmorphs are cruddy (though again, the Ultimate crunch doesn't bar them, it merely ignores them). But my comments are based only on the faction crunch; if it's chauvinist of any kind, that's the Ultimates (or, as I suggested, the crunch inaccurately reflects them).
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Sun, 2011-06-19 11:31
BOMherren BOMherren's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Yerameyahu wrote:
Some morphs are a hell of a lot more equal than others. For example, even with their synthetic bonuses, most synthmorphs are cruddy (though again, the Ultimate crunch doesn't bar them, it merely ignores them). But my comments are based only on the faction crunch; if it's chauvinist of any kind, that's the Ultimates (or, as I suggested, the crunch inaccurately reflects them).
Huh. You're right.
Eclipse Phase 3rd print, p.134, under Ultimates and Disadvantages wrote:
Disadvantages: May not start with Flat, Splicer, uplift or pod morphs.
That's kind of dumb, but it does support the inferences you've been making. The Ultimates, as written, do have tendencies of bio-chauvinism.
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Sun, 2011-06-19 11:47
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Yep. And the 'typical morphs' are Exalt and Remade (both bio). It makes sense to avoid synthetics, because the synthetics almost all suck—that is, are less effective, in terms of aptitudes. (I'm exaggerating a little, and over-focusing; I just really wish they were better!) Exceptions are Reaper and Steel+, and only the latter is really 'normal'.
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Sun, 2011-06-19 14:23
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Well they don't all suck; the Steel Morph from Sunward and its variations are really, really nice morphs. I wouldn't mind using one of those. Also, you can't get much better than the Reaper. Plus there's just the standard benefits of being a synthmorph and not having all of the annoying needs that biomorphs do. Edit: Crap, guy above me made the same point first. Nvm.
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Sun, 2011-06-19 15:39
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Hah, it gets worse: I'm the same guy you were responding to, in fact! :)
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Sun, 2011-06-19 16:56
Unity Unity's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
My rep is ruined! Ruined!
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Mon, 2011-06-20 01:19
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Ultimates and Mercurials
Unity wrote:
My rep is ruined! Ruined!
Ah, may I interest Monsieur in a reputation repair service? Reliable, discreet and with an option (outsourced to ultimates) for retribution?
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Extropian
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